True Dual Exhaust help 94 tbird - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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True Dual Exhaust help 94 tbird

Hi guys I know some or most of you have done the true dual setup on your birds and I just wanted some help on how you did you're setup Thanks!

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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 10:08 AM
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Check the sticky at the top of this section Mandrel Exhaust Systems

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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 01:14 PM
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Mine was already done before I bought the car, but it looks like a Mandrel system like XR-7 mentioned, but mine has a dual in/Dual out flowmaster muffler in the middle acting as a resonator/drone reducer. My car also has chambered mufflers on the ends of the pipes making it quiet enough to not ire the neighbors/police, but when you get it past 3000rpm, she screams like a pissed off demon.
Stock manifolds, no catalysts, 2.5" from collectors to tail pipes.

Inside the car, 50mph, 2000 rpm.
http://vid1112.photobucket.com/album...psrywpegfz.mp4

Inside garage, startup, rev to about 3000.
http://vid1112.photobucket.com/album...pslenayhcq.mp4

In the driveway, some revs.
http://vid1112.photobucket.com/album...ps4qukh7wg.mp4

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 01:34 PM
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AlRigHt ! Sounds good Woodman!
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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
AlRigHt ! Sounds good Woodman!
Wait till I get my Kooks!
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97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 03:29 PM
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Sounds good Woodman!

I can't get a good read on the sound clip at 2k RPM at 50 MPH. I think it sounds pretty quiet, but not sure.

Al
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 04:25 PM
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Well first of all, youre not going to have a "true" dual exhaust. You need that X-over.

Second, you live in Redding ? If they dont do smog inspections, yeah sure. But not if you have to pass the test. Technically illegal to modify your exhaust in this manner - removing the 3rd cat specifically.

On my old Tbird I had a Dual in/out 3rd catalytic converter. I think it was a Mercedes cat but im sure there are plenty more - go talk to an exhaust shop and see what they have to say or if they will even do the work or what parts they might be able to use, you might need to find a shady shop. Unless you do it yourself of course but theres still the risk of failing the visual.

My DOHC Tbird has a factory dual exhaust off a Mark 8 LSC - it had a dual in/out 3rd cat and everything fits between the transmission portion to the end of the IRS subframe. Also technically illegal to sell a cat for re-use in any state if you could even find one.

Lets see who the first dipshit busts the "thats why I couldnt live in california" line. I dont give a fuck, just sayin.
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 04:27 PM
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Sounds good Woodman!

I can't get a good read on the sound clip at 2k RPM at 50 MPH. I think it sounds pretty quiet, but not sure.

Al
It is pretty quiet. You can hear the motor running, but it's not obnoxious, nor is it loud enough to interrupt conversation. Think stock Mustang GT. You know it's there, but it's just lurking in the background.

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 05:04 PM
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Woodman, your exhaust sounds perfect IMO. I will be doing exhaust on my car this summer sometime and will likely do something similar to your setup.
I'm thinking part of the rattle I've had lately is a cat going bad, I think this for 2 reasons. 1st is that the rattle only happens when I accelerate and ONLY when I accelerate after the engine and exhaust is at full operating temperature. 2nd is that when I give her the full enchilada (I prefer to call myself a "spirited driver" lol) I start to smell a rotten egg smell, and both of the top techs I work with and even an exhaust shop have told me that's likely a cat going bad.
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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Mine was already done before I bought the car, but it looks like a Mandrel system like XR-7 mentioned, but mine has a dual in/Dual out flowmaster muffler in the middle acting as a resonator/drone reducer. My car also has chambered mufflers on the ends of the pipes making it quiet enough to not ire the neighbors/police, but when you get it past 3000rpm, she screams like a pissed off demon.
Stock manifolds, no catalysts, 2.5" from collectors to tail pipes.

Inside the car, 50mph, 2000 rpm.
http://vid1112.photobucket.com/album...psrywpegfz.mp4
/url]
All of the sound clips/videos I've ever heard are when vehicles are on level ground. Try making one pulling a grade @2000 rpm @60mph. That's when the drone should be the worst.

Do you realize you were just passed by a NASCAR? I didn't think so.
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 06:33 PM
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I've thought about getting a true dual myself, but NJ does smog testing. On my car it ammounts to an OBD-II test.
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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 06:54 PM
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I've thought about getting a true dual myself, but NJ does smog testing. On my car it amounts to an OBD-II test.
Switch it over to run E85 ... you'll pass with flying colors and the tech will be confused as to how you did it. LOL ... unless he knows what E85 smells like coming out the exhaust.

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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 06:56 PM
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Switch it over to run E85 ... you'll pass with flying colors and the tech will be confused as to how you did it. LOL ... unless he knows what E85 smells like coming out the exhaust.
Cat #3 does not have sensors on it, just like my 2003 sable, it would pass without it. Problem is finding a place willing to do that, as i have no place to do it myself.
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tbird Bob View Post
All of the sound clips/videos I've ever heard are when vehicles are on level ground. Try making one pulling a grade @2000 rpm @60mph. That's when the drone should be the worst.
It'll be awhile before I can do that, threw a rod a couple of weeks ago.

That said, I haven't noticed any significant drone even going uphill. I don't have any local roads I can do 60mph uphill though, but I get what you're after.

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 08:23 PM
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It'll be awhile before I can do that, threw a rod a couple of weeks ago.

That said, I haven't noticed any significant drone even going uphill. I don't have any local roads I can do 60mph uphill though, but I get what you're after.
I suspect the reason you haven't noticed it is because of your chambered mufflers.

I replaced my Flowmaster 40s a couple of weeks ago. The new Magnaflow knock-offs have absolutely no drone.
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 08:32 PM
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I think it starts with deciding on new long tube headers or staying stock there and I don't know any shorty header options for the 4.6.

My all Magnaflow setup is pretty good in it's final configuration for my 5.0. Two rear mufflers, DI/DO resonator, and high flow cats if you want it to smell better.

I'm not sure what to suggest if you have to pass inspections.

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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 09:29 PM
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Woodman, your exhaust sounds perfect IMO. I will be doing exhaust on my car this summer sometime and will likely do something similar to your setup.
I'm thinking part of the rattle I've had lately is a cat going bad, I think this for 2 reasons. 1st is that the rattle only happens when I accelerate and ONLY when I accelerate after the engine and exhaust is at full operating temperature. 2nd is that when I give her the full enchilada (I prefer to call myself a "spirited driver" lol) I start to smell a rotten egg smell, and both of the top techs I work with and even an exhaust shop have told me that's likely a cat going bad.
Yank em!

I'm not too far up the road from you, just in Duluth. I'll be pulling the motor fairly soon.
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97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 09:33 PM
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I think it starts with deciding on new long tube headers or staying stock there and I don't know any shorty header options for the 4.6.

My all Magnaflow setup is pretty good in it's final configuration for my 5.0. Two rear mufflers, DI/DO resonator, and high flow cats if you want it to smell better.

I'm not sure what to suggest if you have to pass inspections.
We don't even have a real long tube option. There are the super rare and uber exotic rebuilt Mac Long Tubes from Guitar Maestro, where you have to modify them to clear the steering shaft. Shorties have demonstrated no measurable gain on the MN-12 platform, and the Kooks are $800, and are actually "mid length". I'll be saving up for some of them while I'm working on a new motor.
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97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-25-2016, 11:05 PM
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On mine i am probably going to keep it stock, since i am perfectly fine with the muffled 4.6L sound, keeps it stealthy. But if the exhasut gets damaged...an upgrade will be performed.
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-26-2016, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SCTbird1994 View Post
Well first of all, youre not going to have a "true" dual exhaust. You need that X-over.
I've had true duals for well over ten years. I don't need a crossover and don't even want a crossover. I don't know why you say that.

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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-26-2016, 11:29 PM
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I've had true duals for well over ten years. I don't need a crossover and don't even want a crossover. I don't know why you say that.
I was just throwing that out there. I cant give every post an all encompassing lecture on all of the options or theory and operation. My answers are based on speculation and insight.

The root of the question brings up the common misconception about what a "true dual" actually is, I assume that a majority of users with low post counts who joined a few months ago asking about this type of thing probably dont have a good understanding about exhaust tuning to make a choice based on options from a performance aspect or whatever sounds cool - you seem to fit the latter.

When I see the original posters location .. thats when the big red flag goes up and the smog inspection / legality becomes an issue to bias my response towards.
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 02:33 AM
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Pertaining to CA specifically, @SCTbird1994 , when I did my smog check on my Bird earlier this year, I asked my smog guy if doing a dual exhaust system is CA legal. He informed me that as long as there were primary and secondary set of CATs (CA approved high flows of course) on each side, that the car will still pass the visual inspection and will likely pass the sniffer test as well.

That said, when it comes down to doing my exhaust, I know how I'm going to do it! LOL.

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 08:56 AM
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Pertaining to CA specifically, @SCTbird1994 , when I did my smog check on my Bird earlier this year, I asked my smog guy if doing a dual exhaust system is CA legal. He informed me that as long as there were primary and secondary set of CATs (CA approved high flows of course) on each side, that the car will still pass the visual inspection and will likely pass the sniffer test as well.

That said, when it comes down to doing my exhaust, I know how I'm going to do it! LOL.
On my prior 1997 Thunderbird, the local muffler shop refused to install my cat back 2.5" exhaust and high flow cats because it didn't have a Y-pipe cat. I explained that I had four high flow cats, he said it's not stock configuration, he can't do it. Even though it'll filter the exhaust better, he wouldn't. The car got rear ended shortly afterward, so I sold the exhaust. Now that I know exhaust isn't so bad, I'll just do it myself from here on out.

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 08:58 AM
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I've had true duals for well over ten years. I don't need a crossover and don't even want a crossover. I don't know why you say that.
Does your car have an exhaust going from each cat/header straight to the back? If so, you're actually losing some power, since the uneven pulses of the V8 are required for proper operation of any v8 engine with a cross plane crank. Are X-pipes and H-pipes Better Than Straight Pipes on Dual Exhaust Systems?
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 10:36 AM
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Exactly .. thats why I said the OP should check with the local exhaust shops to see if they would even Do the work - unless he was going to do it himself which is unlikely. And also talk to the local smog test shop to see what their standing is on the subject. Every smog tech is different and just because it passes with one guy doesnt mean it will pass them all. I wouldnt pass a true dual setup even if it had 4 cats, but if CdDontburn says the inspector will let it slide, then it might be worth the risk - it may not always pass a visual but it will pass the sniffer.
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 11:10 AM
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Does your car have an exhaust going from each cat/header straight to the back? If so, you're actually losing some power, since the uneven pulses of the V8 are required for proper operation of any v8 engine with a cross plane crank. Are X-pipes and H-pipes Better Than Straight Pipes on Dual Exhaust Systems?
Yes, it does.

It would've been easy enough to order my latest exhaust with an X-pipe, I didn't really want to change the sound. I don't know as I'm leaving power on the table. I'd be interested in dynoing the car now and then adding an X-pipe and doing it again of course, but, with my horsepower level and 2.5" exhaust I don't think I'm experiencing any restriction.

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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 11:45 AM
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Unless you are going to add heads, new cams and an intake manifold
do not waste your money on exhaust systems.

Want a louder exhaust, use turbo mufflers.

The stock engines on these heaps are so limp, a Honda with a fart can gives MN12's a run for their money.

If you want 1/4 mile times to drop like a rock, 3500+ stall and 3.73 gears.

Of course this is all N/A.

Forced induction is not my style.


Also my junk has long tubes, by Sean Highland Motorsports.

They still have a pair, brand new.

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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 12:33 PM
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Unless you are going to add heads, new cams and an intake manifold
do not waste your money on exhaust systems.

Want a louder exhaust, use turbo mufflers.

The stock engines on these heaps are so limp, a Honda with a fart can gives MN12's a run for their money.

If you want 1/4 mile times to drop like a rock, 3500+ stall and 3.73 gears.

Of course this is all N/A.

Forced induction is not my style.


Also my junk has long tubes, by Sean Highland Motorsports.

They still have a pair, brand new.
While I agree with the accuracy of your statement, I disagree with the idea that it's worthless.

My car is a toy, a hobby, and is the lowest priority on spending money behind my home/groceries/wife/daughter/pets/entertainment. That said, I tend to start small and build up as money permits. So, a dual exhaust would be one of the first things I buy if I were starting with a car without, as it is relatively inexpensive, easy enough to do in the garage, and is a good "supporting mod" to everything else that comes later.

I am of the opinion that building a good supporting platform first is more important than starting with the big stuff like engine/transmission. So, Exhaust, suspension, wheels/tires/brakes, rear end, driveshaft, transmission/torque converter, then engine is the order I go in. I want to do jobs once, and do the entire job if I can, before moving onto the next thing. So, if I'm going to do an engine (which I'm doing now), I'm going to go as far with it as I can afford, in as short a time as possible so that I don't get tired of not driving my car.

Everyone has different priorities, but putting a free-flowing exhaust on the car can do nothing but help, and helps build a better baseline for when you do more stuff in the future in my opinion.
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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 03:31 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Originally Posted by r429460 View Post
...

Also my junk has long tubes, by Sean Highland Motorsports.

They still have a pair, brand new.
I saw the Magazine coverage; Outstanding!

I searched; any Idea how much those remaining set of LT's are?

I'm sure I can't afford them, but if nothing else we can use it to Bookend GM's price on his Unobtanium Headers.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-27-2016, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
While I agree with the accuracy of your statement, I disagree with the idea that it's worthless.

My car is a toy, a hobby, and is the lowest priority on spending money behind my home/groceries/wife/daughter/pets/entertainment. That said, I tend to start small and build up as money permits. So, a dual exhaust would be one of the first things I buy if I were starting with a car without, as it is relatively inexpensive, easy enough to do in the garage, and is a good "supporting mod" to everything else that comes later.

I am of the opinion that building a good supporting platform first is more important than starting with the big stuff like engine/transmission. So, Exhaust, suspension, wheels/tires/brakes, rear end, driveshaft, transmission/torque converter, then engine is the order I go in. I want to do jobs once, and do the entire job if I can, before moving onto the next thing. So, if I'm going to do an engine (which I'm doing now), I'm going to go as far with it as I can afford, in as short a time as possible so that I don't get tired of not driving my car.

Everyone has different priorities, but putting a free-flowing exhaust on the car can do nothing but help, and helps build a better baseline for when you do more stuff in the future in my opinion.

Its the same as any hobby .. making something your own and the experiences you create with it.

Im exactly the opposite end when it comes to "supporting" mods, I believe they are mostly to enhance after the fact instead of a pre-requisite. Take my SS Chevy for example .. almost 400 horses from the factory - and now I am considering the Borla cat back system. Mostly for the sound aspect to hear that 6.0 Liter motor leave Fords in the dust ( in reality, its been mostly WRX and STI's around here ) .. but its not necessary for the performance - its already there and can only be improved on. In the case of my Tbird, id rather put the money that could be spent on an exhaust, etc .. towards a better engine to have a real starting point.
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