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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 10:15 PM Thread Starter
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Exclamation Frequently Asked Questions about Turbocharging

Ok guys. Here's a post about frequently asked question regarding turbocharged cars. These will enhance your knowledge about turbocharging, differences between turbos in general, etc. These was compiled By Trent Kendall.

What is a boost controller? What is boost spike?


External wastegate or internal wastegate actuator has a base spring setting. For the sake of description lets say it has a 5 psi spring. That means that when 5 psi boost hits the diaphragm the wastegate opens. The boost controller is installed inline with the hose that leads to the pressure side of the wastegate and the other side of the boost controller is a vent. When the boost controller is in the closed ( You cannot blow through it ) position, all the boost pressure goes to the wastegate and you have a stock boost level. As you open the boost controller, boost pressure that would have gone to the wastegate now diverts through the boost controller. What this does is fool the wastegate. If you bleed off 5 psi on a 5 psi system it will take 10 psi to open the wastegate resulting in a 5 psi boost increase on your boost gauge and a lot more power from the engine. This is the simple version and results vary with the system, the size of the hose being used, the sensitivity of the wastegate spring. Manual boost controllers are also very prone to boost spikes. This occurs when the boost controller is open all the way and small diameter hose is being used. The boost pressure builds faster than the hose can flow which lets the turbo spike up big boost numbers until the pressure fights its way through the small hose to the diaphragm, then the boost drops back down. This is a dangerous situation since the spike can blow up your engine before you know what happened. The best way to minimize spike is to keep the manual boost controller located under the hood with as short a length of hose as is possible. This is easily demonstrated by you picking up a piece of ÂĽ" hose 4 feet long and trying to breath through it. Go ahead, try it. Pretty tough isn't it. Now cut the hose in half and try it. Much easier. Your turbo and wastegate feels the same way.


What is boost creep?

As greater exhaust output is created from higher levels of engine performance, the stock internal wastegate actuators begin to lose their effectiveness because the amount of exhaust flow to be bypassed is now beyond their intended operating range. As the result of exhaust flow being greater than the valves’ capacity to discharge, more exhaust flow is directed to the turbine and additional boost is created, which is commonly referred to as boost creep.

Which gears should I get?

Turbochargers rely on exhaust gasses to drive the unit. Useable Exhaust gas is created when the vehicle is under a load. This is the reason many people recommend 3.27's or 3.55's for a turbocharged street car. These less aggressive gear ratios place a higher load on the car for a longer amount of time per gear. Of course for a straight drag car you want to pick the set of gears that puts you in your powerband for every gear and so you are passing through the traps at about redline in your final non OD gear.


Which boost controller should I get?

Any manual boost controller valve (air compressor valve) will work fairly well at controlling boost. The $90 Turbo XS manual boost controller probably is a little more reliable and steady. For electronic boost controllers many people go with a Greddy Profec B, Apexi AVC-R, the newest the E-Boost Controller, etc.

What is the difference between a BOV and bypass? How do they work, are they necessary?

A BOV is a Blow off Valve. These horn shaped device is mounted along the intercooler piping somewhere between the turbo and the throttle body. It will open up once the throttle blade is closed in order to bleed off all the air in the system between the turbo and the throttle blade. The blown off air is simply blown into the atmosphere.
A bypass valve looks very similar to a BOV and many BOV's can function as a bypass valve. The difference being is the air that is blown off from the bypass valve is recirculated via a hose back into the air intake system somewhere between the MAF and the turbo. A bypass valve and not a BOV is necessary on draw through MAF cars, otherwise you would be blowing off metered air. A Draw through MAF is where the mass airflow meter is mounted in front of the turbo. There is no definitive answer if a BOV or bypass is necessary. However many people agree that utilizing a BOV or bypass can extend turbo life and increase spool time between shifts.

How does a wastegate work?

A wastegate is mounted in the exhaust plumbing before the turbocharger. A wastegate functions as a boost regulator by diverting exhaust gasses around the turbo once the turbo has reached the desired boost level. They are simply a large valve backed by a spring. Once the exhaust gas has reached the capacity of the spring the valve starts to open, diverting the exhaust gas around the turbo and back into the exhaust and out the tailpipes

What exhaust should I buy?

Turbos HATE backpressure. You want the highest flowing exhaust system you can fit. The main item here is mufflers. You do not want chambered style mufflers like flowmasters. You want a "straight through" type muffler like the dynomax super turbo, ultraflo or any other straight through design muffler. Chambered mufflers will cost you at least 20hp minimum. If you are running a single exhaust 3" is the minimum, for dual exhaust 2.5" will be fine. The overall exhaust system is up to you, like I said the larger the better. If you can fit dual 3" then do it.


What is Turbo Lag??

Turbo Lag is the time it takes from when you smash the "go" pedal to the time the turbos are making an appreciable amount of boost. For some reason people have it stuck in their mind that it takes 10 minutes for the turbos to respond. That is simply not the case. Most of the single turbo kits are making FULL BOOST before 3000 rpm or less (try that with a centrifugal supercharger). Twin turbos have even less lag, the power is there right after you hit the gas basically. You can even launch off the line under boost with a 5 speed if you get a two step..

What are the main differences between a Single and Twin Turbo setup?

First off, you can make as much or as little horsepower as you want with either a single or a twin. The main differences between the two are the turbo sizes and the complexity of the entire package. With a single turbo you only have to deal with one of everything, one turbo, one wastegate, one downpipe, and one set of plumbing. With a twin turbo of course you have two of everything so that makes it a little more complex. With a typical street twin setup you use fairly small turbos therefore there is very little turbo lag.

What are the main tuning problems when dealing with Turbos?

The main thing you need to control with a turbo is the timing. It helps a great deal to have an aftermarket tuning device that will allow you to pull some timing at the point in the power curve where you are making peak torque. An eec-tuner, tweecer or a chip will allow you to do this. This will help ensure that you don't have detonation. You can pull out timing at the torque peak and then add in timing from there to get some more power. Other than that the same tuning issues apply to turbos that apply for all power adders: make sure you have a fuel and ignition system that is up to the task


Which gauges should I have for my turbocharged Mustang?


Fuel Pressure, Exhaust Gas Temperature, Boost. You can use the EGT gauge to help determine if you are running too lean based on the readings. This can help you prevent a blown head gasket or worse... The fuel pressure gauge should be mounted where you can view it easily while blasting down the road. You want to make sure the fuel pressure doesn't start to drop at the higher RPM's, this is indicative of a fuel system that isn't up to par.

If money permits add a wideband O2 to the tuning array. The EGT is more accurate than an O2 sensor gauge, but the wideband in irreplaceable. The EGT is a little slow to respond but it gives you real time cylinder data on 1 cylinder. The wideband responds in milliseconds and is super accurate. There is one kit on the market that is a few hundred bucks.


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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 09:15 AM
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Good info Isra!

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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-03-2005, 09:51 AM
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You have sparked a few questions with me. If you have a problem with the boost spike, what is stopping you from running two wasteg8s? If you have two and both have a five psi spring, that should take care of it yes?

Chris

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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-12-2005, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seawalkersee
You have sparked a few questions with me. If you have a problem with the boost spike, what is stopping you from running two wasteg8s? If you have two and both have a five psi spring, that should take care of it yes?

Chris

P.S. Where did you get your book...its time I joined the game again.
Why would you need two wastegate for just one turbo? It's unnecesary to have 2 wastegates for just one turbo, besides, it wont work. Now, if you run twin turbos, then you would need 2 wastegates, one for each turbo!


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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-13-2005, 05:33 AM
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If they are mechanical why cant you use two. Only one would pop if it reached the pressure. However in the event it spikes then they would both open. I dont know this for a fact thats why I am asking...Again...where did you get your book? I want it.

Chris
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-13-2005, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seawalkersee
If they are mechanical why cant you use two. Only one would pop if it reached the pressure. However in the event it spikes then they would both open. I dont know this for a fact thats why I am asking...Again...where did you get your book? I want it.

Chris

Ok, so if you have 2 wastegates and one of them pops, do you think the second wouldn't pop also because of the same pressure that killed the firts gate?? You need to read more and get educated in the turbo knowledge. Like I said, you only need 1 wastegate to control one turbo, putting two gates in one turbo is unnecesary. Gas pressure is what activates the gate to open, you use a boost controller to control the psi. If you have a 5psi spring that's all that you'll see, no more. Even if your gate is all screwed up and had problems, it would pop, it would just not run. All of that info I got it by researching and reading. If you want to learn more, go buy yourself turbo magazines, they sell some on Barnes and Nobles, or, if you dont want to pay, google it, there's alot of good info on the net!

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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 12:45 AM
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So if the wastegate opens then why does the boost spike happen?

Chris
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seawalkersee
So if the wastegate opens then why does the boost spike happen?

Chris

A combination between the gate and the boost controller. Remeber that you need to get the right parts for your application. Wastegates can also be maxed out, that's why you need to choose the right turbo along with the right wastegate. Here's an example, when you have your boost controller set at 10psi and when you start to build up boost and it starts to climb considerally, then you have problems. If you have a T67 with a 38mm Tial wastegate, the gate is too small for that big turbo, you would need to change to a bigger gate. There are many factors to be considered also, but I think this is one of the problems.!

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 12:42 PM
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Interesting. However, it seems that since there is still a boost spike that even with the five lb gate in Sir Wills car it still has the spike. There is an explination for this but I dont know enough about it to say. This is why I am asking how this could happen if the gate opens at 5psi.

Chris
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 02:35 PM
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I'm not aware of having any boost spike. Why would you state something like that when you have no basis for the statement.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir William
I'm not aware of having any boost spike. Why would you state something like that when you have no basis for the statement.

I was actually going to ask the same thing, but I didn't wanted to sound like an @$$

seaw, you need to read more about turbochargers man. Remember that books are your friends, they will educate you!


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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 04-14-2005, 06:41 PM
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Here is a good link on the basics

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-31-2005, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tx_Cat
Why would you need two wastegate for just one turbo? It's unnecesary to have 2 wastegates for just one turbo, besides, it wont work. Now, if you run twin turbos, then you would need 2 wastegates, one for each turbo!
Thats not necessarily true. When you start making some serioues serious power, sometimes twin waste gates on a single turbo setup are required in order to handle the sheer volume of exhaust gases thats need re-routed around the turbocharger to control boost creep or boost spikes. Jon Dell Blair's 86 SVO is a perfect example of this.

http://home.aol.com/fourced/


Boost spikes on the other hand are a problem of the waste gate not opening quickly enough. Usually this can be caused by a restriction on the boost signal from the manifold/IC piping to the waste gate actuator, or a badly set up boost controller. It can also be due to mechanical problems with the waste gate itself. I'd first start diagnosing boost spike issues by replacing the boost signal line to the waste gate with the shortest possible new hose with as few and the smoothest bends possible and watch to see if it still spikes. If the spike is cured, place your boost controller system back into the loop and check again. Try to track down the cause of the spike and work from there to cure it.


One thing you should notice when you remove the boost controller from the system and run on just wastegate pressure is that your turbocharger(s) will be a little less responsive and the car will feel a bit more sluggish as the boost builds. Because most factory boost controllers use an electronic solonoid, that solonoid will actually prevent boost from reaching the wastegate until the boost is already beyond wastegate pressure (if that solonoid is sticking or the sensor controlling it is bad.... ) it'll act this way. On wastegate pressure, the gate will slowly be pushed open relative to the amount of boost required and the rate that boost builds. On an electronically controlled boost setup the wastegate remains closed and basically snaps open very quickly instead of the slow methodical opening of the gate on wastegate pressure.

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 11:22 PM
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Dumb newbie question here. Would twin turbos be sequential or are you talking about having one on each side of the manifold?
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Dumb newbie question here. Would twin turbos be sequential or are you talking about having one on each side of the manifold?
You can have them sequential or each turbo per manifold. Supras have a sequential setup, so as the new F350. In my opinion, I would not use a sequential setup. Many say that it's very inefficient. That's why many supra people get rid of them and put big singles.


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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 09:24 PM
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Well, I'm not gonna argue, but I see LOTS I disagree with. Let's just say I'm planning on doing twins, and doubt highly I'll use ANY waste gate. I might also point out that BOV's and waste gates essentially do the same thing, and Ak Miller was using at least 3 BOV's on a single turbo 30 yrs ago, all at the same rating/design too.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-04-2008, 10:29 PM
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Well, I'm not gonna argue, but I see LOTS I disagree with. Let's just say I'm planning on doing twins, and doubt highly I'll use ANY waste gate. I might also point out that BOV's and waste gates essentially do the same thing, and Ak Miller was using at least 3 BOV's on a single turbo 30 yrs ago, all at the same rating/design too.


Wastegates and BOVs perform completly different functions....good luck with your project.

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Wastegates and BOVs perform completly different functions....go luck with your project.

David
Yeah... That's an understatement....

A wastegate limits how much PSI you're putting out. If you put out more than you're boost controller is set for, It opens the wastegate lowering the amount of exhaust gasses spinning the turbine, and slowing the turbo down. Turbos are not designed to put out "X" psi. They keep building pressure as they spin faster.

A blowoff valve is on the cold side, and vents charge pressure into atmosphere when the throttle blade closes and creates a vacuum in the manifold. You don't want all of the pressure you're putting out to stack up on your throttle blade, do you? :P

The Twins vs Singles is a popular debate. It won't end either, because there is no "Right" setup for everyone. If you want to do something like road racing, good luck using a big turbo! On the other side, if you wanted to make a highway monster, a big single would stomp all over the majority of sequential turbo setups due to efficiency.

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-20-2008, 06:45 PM
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are there any kits for tbirds?

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no.

and before its asked, no, the mustang kits wont work.

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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-20-2008, 09:56 PM
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damn. so how hard is it to fabricate a set up?

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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-20-2008, 10:01 PM
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check out twinturbo281's threads and txcat's thread, both have made their own setup. controversial, but both do present some good ideas.

there is no right way for a setup on these cars so EVERYTHING must be custom

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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-20-2008, 11:06 PM
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I've been thinking alot about the remote turbo setup I saw on Trucks on SpikeTV. http://www.ststurbo.com/products
I wouldn't need to change my exhaust manifolds (A new set of Kooks 3/4) and I wouldn't need to cut up my K-member or buy a tubular one.

Im sure there is a cheaper way to piece together a setup individually but, as far as univeral kits go this is the best way I know of.

The only things I don't like about the remote turbo setup are the amount of extra plumbing need to return charged air to the front of the car and the turbo being exposed to road conditions more than an under hood setup. I've heard a hot turbo could crack if it gets splashed by a sizeable puddle or a small snowdrift. With a turbo jacket the risk should be minimal but I don't know of anyone who has tried this on an MN-12.

This is my favorite turbo option but if somebody has a better way, I have a new best friend.
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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-21-2008, 12:48 AM
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cool thanks i took a look at that and i think ill stick with a sc afterall still going abcka dn forht more top end or instant power

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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-21-2008, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrmChkn4.6 View Post
I've been thinking alot about the remote turbo setup I saw on Trucks on SpikeTV. http://www.ststurbo.com/products
I wouldn't need to change my exhaust manifolds (A new set of Kooks 3/4) and I wouldn't need to cut up my K-member or buy a tubular one.

Im sure there is a cheaper way to piece together a setup individually but, as far as univeral kits go this is the best way I know of.

The only things I don't like about the remote turbo setup are the amount of extra plumbing need to return charged air to the front of the car and the turbo being exposed to road conditions more than an under hood setup. I've heard a hot turbo could crack if it gets splashed by a sizeable puddle or a small snowdrift. With a turbo jacket the risk should be minimal but I don't know of anyone who has tried this on an MN-12.

This is my favorite turbo option but if somebody has a better way, I have a new best friend.

Bill Wheeler (owner of this club aka Sir William) has an STS prototype rear mount turbo on his T-bird.

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-21-2008, 08:06 PM
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the turbo being exposed to road conditions more than an under hood setup. I've heard a hot turbo could crack if it gets splashed by a sizeable puddle or a small snowdrift. With a turbo jacket the risk should be minimal but I don't know of anyone who has tried this on an MN-12.
mount the turbo in the trunk ive seen it done befor
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