How to see if you actually got the trans you paid for - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-13-2004, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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How to see if you actually got the trans you paid for

Since some people are getting so called "bulletproof" or "jerry spec" transmissions that turn out to be not at all as advertised, I thought I'd put together a few things that can be checked to verify what parts are in the trans. This will likely be a living document which will have additions over time. To start I will only get into things that can be checked externally or with the pan off. Should someone need help after tearing a trans down all the way, we can go through some of those items at that time.


First thing is easy, the case. This image is of the driver's side, the large hole near the left side is where the manual lever goes through the case. I have seen the F7 casting number on 97-01 cores I have had here. If you have an F5 or older casting number, you have the old style case, and I would not use it for a performance build.



Inside the pan, you can have individual wires going to the solenoids, these were used through 97.



Or, you can have the printed circuit board, as used from 98-present. Much cleaner.


Thanks to Big Scott for those 2 images. If you didn't have to change the pinout of the wiring harness connector to get the trans to function in your 97 or older car, then you do not have the new style electricals with the circuit board.


Now, on to EPC solenoids. You should be able to read the numbers on these with the pan off and no further disassembly.

This one is from an original 96 trans, note the F3AP number on it, and yes I know these are hard to get clear pictures of.


This one comes from a 98-up trans, you can see it has a different style connector on it for the printed circuit board, and an F8AP number.


And finally, the one you want, from a 5.4L trans, this has the XL3P number. This solenoid allows higher line pressure, I would not build a performance transmission without it.


Now, short videos of one way clutches. First out of the case, just so you can get a good feel of the sound differences. There's no way you should mistake one for the other.
Roller Clutch
Mechanical Diode
Now of course you probably don't have your trans all apart, so how do they sound in an assembled trans? In these videos I have the tailhousing off so I can easily grip the output shaft to turn it. If the trans is in the car and the rear end jacked up, you can take the trans out of park and turn the driveshaft by hand to duplicate this test.
Roller clutch in trans
Mechanical Diode in trans
Still no mistaking one from the other with a sound difference like that. This clearly shows how someone could not mistakenly install a trans without a MD, when you have to turn the driveshaft to bolt it to the rear end, you would also hear the MD ratcheting, provided the MD is actually there.

If a trans doesn't have an MD in it, it isn't even worth using with a stock engine. The roller clutch is junk, the bean counters at Ford didn't give in to the extra cost of the MD clutch for no good reason.

There's a start. Questions and comments welcomed.
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-13-2004, 12:41 AM
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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-13-2004, 01:38 AM
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Thanks Kris. I'm sure that'll help a lot of people see and/or hear the difference.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-13-2004, 06:07 AM
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My understanding is that my bogus bulletproof did not even have the newer style accumulators or valve body. It was essentially a stock 94-95 rebuilt transmission.

Kris,
You might want to explain what to look for to distinguish the old accumulators and valve body from the newer parts.



And don't be fooled by seeing the external tailshaft lube mod, and assume the internals are modified. My trans had the external tailshaft lube, but nothing else was modified. Take the time to check it out as Kris has explained.

A word to the wise ... and all that.

-mike

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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-13-2004, 09:42 AM
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To add to what Kris posted: (maybe we can condense all this as it goes on)

If you want to check for the mechanical diode without even dropping the pan or jacking the car up. If the car is on level ground, through it in neutral and pop the hood, push the car back and forth and listen for the faint clicking sound.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-13-2004, 01:45 PM
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My trans had the updated 96-97 accumulators. Transgo modified valve body, which is what really got us taking a harder look at the unit, and no MD. Best we could tell by the case number, it was a 96 unit.

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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-14-2004, 04:30 PM
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I notice if I look real hart, I can find a link on a certain automotive website which is how they refer to the internals of their custom built transmissions. This link directs me to the TCCoA's transmission article.

Should I trust links from vendors to the TCCoA's Trans 101 article as the final word in terms of what comes on the inside of their transmissions?
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-14-2004, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Derek
Should I trust links from vendors to the TCCoA's Trans 101 article as the final word in terms of what comes on the inside of their transmissions?
I think the bottom line is unless your building yourself or having TFHS Motorsports build your Jerry-spec transmission you might as well just save your money.

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-14-2004, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jturmel


I think the bottom line is unless your building yourself or having TFHS Motorsports build your Jerry-spec transmission you might as well just save your money.

-J
Yep, there's only four guys I would trust to build a 4r.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-29-2004, 11:31 PM
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This one was built by the first one on your list.





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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-07-2004, 04:47 AM
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Question.. How would you guys go about taking a local shop to task over the transmission they built? I've got this sneaking suspission that my trans was not rebuilt to the specs that I provided (and I think they didn't use some of the parts I provided, either).... I provided them with a list of all the parts that were to be used and supplied 90% of them (with the exception of seals, the new style reverse drum and the 5.4L planetary gear set.) They claim to have used all of my parts, including the Mark VIII converter. I recently had my car up on a lift and spun the rear wheels to get the driveshaft to turn. I didn't hear any kind of clicking what so ever. This is what started me suspecting their work/word. What can I do?
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 01:52 PM
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Ok Who is TFHS ?

Thanks

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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 02:01 PM
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The F'ing Hottest Ish?

I'm pretty sure that's Kris.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SanDiegoLXBird
Question.. How would you guys go about taking a local shop to task over the transmission they built? I've got this sneaking suspission that my trans was not rebuilt to the specs that I provided (and I think they didn't use some of the parts I provided, either).... I provided them with a list of all the parts that were to be used and supplied 90% of them (with the exception of seals, the new style reverse drum and the 5.4L planetary gear set.) They claim to have used all of my parts, including the Mark VIII converter. I recently had my car up on a lift and spun the rear wheels to get the driveshaft to turn. I didn't hear any kind of clicking what so ever. This is what started me suspecting their work/word. What can I do?
That's a tough one... you might start by going back to them and demonstrating the MD test and take it from there. You're gonna have to get the trans torn down to see if the parts are in there.. the problem is that if you do it on your own, or at another shop, they will question it, and getting them to do it in front of you might be tough if they know the didn't do the job...

But like I say, maybe if you show them the MD test and kinda go "what's up with that, I wanna see the MD 'cause I can't hear it" maybe they'll do it... If not you'll have to pay someone else to do it that will "testify" and take pix as he breaks it down... or do it yourself with an independent witness or in front of one of their techs..

Good luck with that one...

-mike

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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 96 GoldBird


That's a tough one... you might start by going back to them and demonstrating the MD test and take it from there. You're gonna have to get the trans torn down to see if the parts are in there.. the problem is that if you do it on your own, or at another shop, they will question it, and getting them to do it in front of you might be tough if they know the didn't do the job...

But like I say, maybe if you show them the MD test and kinda go "what's up with that, I wanna see the MD 'cause I can't hear it" maybe they'll do it... If not you'll have to pay someone else to do it that will "testify" and take pix as he breaks it down... or do it yourself with an independent witness or in front of one of their techs..

Good luck with that one...

-mike
well.. I redid the MD test and heard it clicking this time. I guess the fan that was on in the shop I was at was enough to mask the noise. What I'm starting to wonder about now is the torque converter. I have yet to get under there and take the inspection cover off to check the flexplate and the difference in diameter between plate and coverter cover. Hopefully I'll be able to pull a pn off of one or both.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SanDiegoLXBird


well.. I redid the MD test and heard it clicking this time. I guess the fan that was on in the shop I was at was enough to mask the noise. What I'm starting to wonder about now is the torque converter. I have yet to get under there and take the inspection cover off to check the flexplate and the difference in diameter between plate and coverter cover. Hopefully I'll be able to pull a pn off of one or both.
Heck, if you can get a pic, I betcha someone here like JL or KD can tell by looking at it...

-mike

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Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 02:25 PM
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No digicam. Just gunna have to go by observations and measurements.

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SanDiegoLXBird
The F'ing Hottest Ish?

I'm pretty sure that's Kris.

Kris - You want to build one for me ?

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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 09-15-2004, 04:18 PM
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If you get the part number off the converter I can identify it. It should be laser etched into the front cover but I don't know you would see it in the car. I would think looking at the bolt circle would be the easiest.
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-11-2004, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
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Yep, there's only four guys I would trust to build a 4r.
Ok, who are the 4 guys and how do we get in touch with them?

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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-11-2004, 11:02 AM
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Question for scott V or anyone else who knows.

What kind of pan is that on your 4r?

Where can i get one, about how many quarts does that add to the trans?

Thanks,
Justin
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-11-2004, 11:10 AM
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Justin,

I asked Mike that same question. I believe he told me it is the B&M deep pan. Not sure how much additional fluid it holds vs. the stock one. Summit I think sells it for like $185.

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 11-11-2004, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
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Justin,

I asked Mike that same question. I believe he told me it is the B&M deep pan. Not sure how much additional fluid it holds vs. the stock one. Summit I think sells it for like $185.
i have the same pan and it holds 3 extra quarts. with a 28k B&M cooler and that pan i need about 18.5 quarts of mercon 5 to fill the tranny up.

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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 12:07 AM
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Any pics of the output shaft Kris? Thats an expensive little piece if you use the right one.
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-13-2006, 09:25 PM
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if the trans is built by darrin its legit correct?

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-13-2006, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
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if the trans is built by darrin its legit correct?
Absolutely ... I've heard nothing but good stuff about his work.

-mike

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Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-01-2006, 08:59 PM
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I'm getting mine from Darrin with a Marauder TC. Can't wait till the end of the month. Hoping my money will come in soon so I can get him a down payment and get him started on it. Going to Drive up to Indiana and pick it up. I'll tell you how ugly he looks when I get back :P

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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 06:56 PM
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I just checked on the numbers of the transmission it is XXF7-AP-XXXX-XX I could only see the F7-AP. The pan has a large bump in the middle and the bellhousing has a 40. I hope this is at least worth some of the money. God that pisses me off! I read the Transmision 101 off this sight, to that turd and he said that is how they are built!

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinH
Yep, there's only four guys I would trust to build a 4r.
Isnt your bulletproof trans smoked Justin???

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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-03-2006, 07:28 PM
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Does the michanical diode click both ways or just one way? When I jacked the car up and my son held on tire and I turned the other tire I heard a distenctive click, but sence I couldn't reach the DS the other tire would slip through his hands. I am kind of a big guy so I can't reach the DS.

So, hell what am I looking at?

P.S. When I turned it back and forth there was a clunk coming from the rear yoke and front yoke, that can't be good....

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