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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-06-2015, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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headliner Q's

1. I've found saddle #1755 and saddle #2055 colors from several aftermarket vendors, such as this one, so those seem to be the generics that are supposed to match OEM saddle.
Which of these, if either, is a good match for the Ford OEM saddle headliner in a '96 with interior code CC (I think that's the code that goes with the DZ exterior)? It seems the lighter 1755 is closer to the headliner and 2055 is closer to the plastic trim.

Hancock Fabrics has these, and one of their stores in in town, but are any of those as good a match to my OEM as the aforementioned 1755 and 2055? It's hard to tell with monitors sometimes. I'll have to take an under-trim piece of mine in for comparison if nobody here knows.
The saddle spec colors can be ordered online, but S&H typically puts them a good bit higher than Hancock's local pricing.

2. Which adhesive would you recommend? I've read good and bad reviews on most of the modern ones.

I have some left in old spray cans of V&S 581 and Duro 81088 and they worked well enough years ago on fabric & foam, but I never tried them on headliner (V&S 1081 is supposed to be for headliner). I doubt I have enough of the Duro left anyway, and who knows what the shelf life is, so...

I may have some 3M 77 left around here somewhere, but I think that's not high-temp. Then there's 3M 82-06RV which comes in a smaller can, but isn't that mostly for touch ups rather than spraying down the whole headliner?

There's a plethora of "headliner" adhesives out there, but it seems the consensus is that 3M 38808 works well. Does anyone have experience with others like Polymat 797, Loctite 37312 or DAP Landau? Reviews suggest the Permatex 27828 is weak and to be avoided.

Lastly, about how much adhesive will I need for the '96 headliner, assuming I get it right the first time?
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-06-2015, 08:28 PM
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I can only comment on the adhesive I use when I redo headliners..

Which is Permatex Heavy Duty Headliner & Carpet Adhesive

Item#27828

The Permatex works reallllly good..

Just make sure you only do small sections at a time though because once this stuff sets..If you have a wrinkle you're screwed..

One other key is to make sure you remove all the old foam backing from the old headliner..So you get the best adhesion possible..

I use a combination of a Brown Scotch-Brite Pad drill attachment, and a Brass wire wheel drill attachment..



Depending on the hardness of the headliner material..

If it's a soft headliner..I'll use the Brown Scotch-Brite Pad drill attachment..If it's a harder headliner..I'll use the Brass wire wheel drill attachment..

Sometimes it's tricky because you want to get off all of the old foam backing from the old headliner, but you don't want to tear a hole in it in the process..






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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
I can only comment on the adhesive I use when I redo headliners..

Which is Permatex Heavy Duty Headliner & Carpet Adhesive

Item#27828

The Permatex works reallllly good..

Just make sure you only do small sections at a time though because once this stuff sets..If you have a wrinkle you're screwed..

One other key is to make sure you remove all the old foam backing from the old headliner..So you get the best adhesion possible..

I use a combination of a Brown Scotch-Brite Pad drill attachment, and a Brass wire wheel drill attachment..



Depending on the hardness of the headliner material..

If it's a soft headliner..I'll use the Brown Scotch-Brite Pad drill attachment..If it's a harder headliner..I'll use the Brass wire wheel drill attachment..

Sometimes it's tricky because you want to get off all of the old foam backing from the old headliner, but you don't want to tear a hole in it in the process..






Rayo..
Wacky question. Why not glue a new layer of foam on before the new headlining material? Just to much of a PITA? Won't conform to the contours? Glue doesn't want to stick?

Is the factory foam white or grey? I haven't had one apart.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97CatMan View Post
Wacky question. Why not glue a new layer of foam on before the new headlining material? Just to much of a PITA? Won't conform to the contours? Glue doesn't want to stick?

Is the factory foam white or grey? I haven't had one apart.
Basically you have to remove all the old foam backing so the new stuff adheres properly..

When you buy the new headliner material it already comes with the foam backing..

I don't see any reason why you would need any additional layers of foam..Besides what is already on the back of the new headliner material..

I want to say the OEM foam is grey, but after many years it turns more of a yellowish brown color..

The glue they use might also have an effect on the color of the old foam backing..






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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 07:23 AM
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If you're looking for sound deadening, I'd recommend Dynamat (or equivelent!) inside the top of the car while the headliner's out.

RwP

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
Basically you have to remove all the old foam backing so the new stuff adheres properly..

When you buy the new headliner material it already comes with the foam backing..

I don't see any reason why you would need any additional layers of foam..Besides what is already on the back of the new headliner material..

I want to say the OEM foam is grey, but after many years it turns more of a yellowish brown color..

The glue they use might also have an effect on the color of the old foam backing..






Rayo..
Ahh! I was unaware the new material had foam.

It was gray. Cool.

I used to deliver the foam to the (a) headliner plant in Port Huron. It came in rolls about 12 foot long. Was about a inch thick. They would slit it to the correct thickness and then heat laminate it to the backer. Once and awhile the heat laminating machines would catch on fire. The excess material they cut off would stick to the dies and slowly burn. Not enough to to cause concern. Normally. One time we were unloading my trailer and I looked over and said "Hey that machines on fire" and the answer was " Oh that's normal nothing to be concerned about" to which I said "You sure about that" and the guy turned around freaked out since their were flames about 12 foot tall coming out of the top of the machine. They had to go over and put it out. The foam came from General Foam in New Jersey. Over by the Meadowlands. The name of the plant evades me but they supplied the big three. They also did door panels.

Not that this has anything to do with repairing a headliner. It's just that I always think of the machine catching fire when ever head liners are mentioned. And thought someone might be interested in how they were made.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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Just make sure you only do small sections at a time though because once this stuff sets..If you have a wrinkle you're screwed..
Do you prefer to start from one end (and which one?) or hold the ends up and lay it from the middle outward?

Quote:
One other key is to make sure you remove all the old foam backing from the old headliner..So you get the best adhesion possible..
I haven't peeled mine back yet, so I'll ask: is the '96 backer board ABS, fiberglass, cardboard fiberboard, resinated jute or something else?

Quote:
I use a combination of a Brown Scotch-Brite Pad drill attachment, and a Brass wire wheel drill attachment..
Have you ever tried an adhesive remover spray? I usually use Chemtronics ES805, which removes just about every soft adhesive from just about everything.
I don't know how effective it would be on OEM headliner adhesive, though -- does anyone know exactly what Ford used? I'm assuming it's just some kind of commercial-grade contact cement.

The less expensive WD-40 also lifts contact cement, but is a no-no for a lot of plastics. I've used it on thermosets like Formica w/o harm.

The Chemtronics remover is safe for most plastics, and I think it would be quicker, easier and less risk of damage to the backer board than the wheels, depending on the backer board material.
Since the fingernail test says my OEM foam is toast, the spray would adequately penetrate it (as opposed to being absorbed by foam that's in good shape). Stubborn foam can be removed first via hand rolling, etc.
Maybe it's just me being overly cautious, but I have an aversion to using power tools on pieces like this.

However, if the backer board is pressed fiberboard or resinated jute, then I'd have to rethink use of a chemical remover, since it could be absorbed and soften the board, leading to warpage and degradation.

Actually, that brings up the question of whether the old adhesive layer needs to be removed at all. Would the new adhesive grab onto the old adhesive well enough if the old adhesive were thoroughly cleaned (and dried)? I guess it depends on what Ford used at the factory and what the backer board is made of.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Torque View Post
Do you prefer to start from one end (and which one?) or hold the ends up and lay it from the middle outward?
I start from either end, and work my way to the other end..Spraying adhesive as I go vs spraying the whole board..

Just take your time..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque
I haven't peeled mine back yet, so I'll ask: is the '96 backer board ABS, fiberglass, cardboard fiberboard, resinated jute or something else?
Having done a few of these from different models of Ford..I'm pretty confident in saying the headliner shell is fiberglass..

You know the sort of fiberglass that is used to insulate attics, and walls..The soft fiberglass..

Well..The inner shell is a softer fiberglass..While the outer part of it..The part that gets the adhesive is a harder surface..Like the surface of cardboard..

When they make these at the factory..I would guess soft sheets of fiberglass is loaded into a press mold..

Then compressed together with a little heat to help keep it's shape..

I would stay away from adhesive removers on these..You may melt the material, and make it one big gooey mess..






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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97CatMan View Post
...

I used to deliver the foam to the (a) headliner plant in Port Huron. It came in rolls about 12 foot long. Was about a inch thick. They would slit it to the correct thickness and then heat laminate it to the backer. Once and awhile the heat laminating machines would catch on fire. The excess material they cut off would stick to the dies and slowly burn. Not enough to to cause concern. Normally. One time we were unloading my trailer and I looked over and said "Hey that machines on fire" and the answer was " Oh that's normal nothing to be concerned about" to which I said "You sure about that" and the guy turned around freaked out since their were flames about 12 foot tall coming out of the top of the machine. They had to go over and put it out. The foam came from General Foam in New Jersey. Over by the Meadowlands. The name of the plant evades me but they supplied the big three. They also did door panels.

Not that this has anything to do with repairing a headliner. It's just that I always think of the machine catching fire when ever head liners are mentioned. And thought someone might be interested in how they were made.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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I would stay away from adhesive removers on these..You may melt the material, and make it one big gooey mess..
That's what I was afraid of. Bummerz...
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-07-2015, 11:41 PM
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After removing the old headliner material, you can also shellac the form and stiffen it a bit.

I may have mentioned - while it's out is the IDEAL time to Dynamat (tm) (or equivalent - I don't think I've bought any Dynamat(tm) yet!) the inside roof of the car.

RwP

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-08-2015, 04:03 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Originally Posted by RalphP View Post
After removing the old headliner material, you can also shellac the form and stiffen it a bit.

I may have mentioned - while it's out is the IDEAL time to Dynamat (tm) (or equivalent - I don't think I've bought any Dynamat(tm) yet!) the inside roof of the car.

RwP
You do know Dynamat has Lead sheet incorporated into it, right?

That's why it's so heavy...

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-08-2015, 10:30 PM
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Yes, I do. I'm more interested in the sound dampening in the pickup truck than the weight.

The Cougar - it'd be more to reduce the infiltration of heat in a 100F+ day with the black interior *grins*

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-08-2015, 10:47 PM
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I don't know about the 89-93 interiors but when I had my headliner down I found there to be a layer of factory sound deadener material glued to the roof behind the moonroof assembly(which I had to partially reglue, hence it coming to my attention).


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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-09-2015, 06:50 AM
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I don't know about the 89-93 interiors but when I had my headliner down I found there to be a layer of factory sound deadener material glued to the roof behind the moonroof assembly(which I had to partially reglue, hence it coming to my attention).
Yeah..Those sticky "sound deadener" pads are on the early cars too..

I pulled my headliner out of a Canadian Thunderbird, and don't recall those pads being there..

On every other MN12 inner roof structure..I've always seen them there though..

Someone could have removed them at some point I suppose..






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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-09-2015, 05:03 PM
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I had those sticky things on my roof. Some were laying on the headliner and some stayed glued to ceiling. I am not sure if I should try to glue them back up or just leave them out. My interior has been out of my car over a year now.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-09-2015, 05:50 PM
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Ford refers to those brown pads attached to the inner roof as "Roof Insulators"..

IMO..This was an attempt to deaden the sound caused by things such as a hard rain beating on the roof of your car while you're driving..

That could be distracting to a driver..

For many of you that live in a very warm climate year round..These typically fall off due to heat..

If you don't drive in rain very often..I don't see a problem leaving the stock "Roof Insulators" out..

One other thing to consider is:

If you are a bass junky like myself it would be wise to replace the stock "Roof Insulators" with a good quality sound deadener..

We have a large roof structure on our MN12..

So when you start making a lot of bass..Without a good sound deadener you get a lot of resonance from the roof..Which is not good for big bass..






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Last edited by Rayo; 07-09-2015 at 05:58 PM.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 02:29 PM
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I went online to Amazon and found almost the same color headliner for my 1996 3.8L. The company was called Plassteck, sold by fabric.com. 58" wide and they sell by the yard at $7.98. I got a can of adhesive from my local parts store, all in all, it looks perfect now and cost me around $25 bucks all together.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 05:45 AM Thread Starter
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After getting a free swatch sheet from them, I ended up ordering 3 yards of #1755 from this vendor.
The 3rd yard is for safe measure and because I'll redo the visors with it.
I haven't installed mine yet, as other things on my Bird have taken priority.

I had heard bad things about Plassteck foam separation, resulting in droop. Do let us know if you have any probs with yours down the road.
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