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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 02:35 AM Thread Starter
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I have been considering this swap. Its a turn off to me that the batt light would no longer function, but what kind of voltages are you running after the car warms up? Is it necessary to turn up the PWM controller to make the voltage sit where you want it when the car is warmed up? I know mine drops off considerably(only runs low 12v) when its warmed up all the way. You are also up north though in a cooler climate.
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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 08:01 PM
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a handful of 1990's ford vehicles don't have an alternator warning light at all. instead, there is a ~500ohm resistor feeding the regulator i-line for the initial rotor excitation voltage.

if you are looking for an alternator monitoring system, you could add a voltage guage to your car. this would be a whole lot more useful than a red warning lightbulb. but if you're dead-set on having a warning light, i suppose you could build an electronics circuit to illuminate a bulb when the battery voltage dropped below a certain set point (i.e. 13.0 Volts).

after the car warms up, the alternator voltage is still fully variable and can get close to 15V. electrical resistance does increase with heat, and the small 10 guage wiring i've seen on some alternator charge circuits might be a limiting factor. the factory police interceptor wiring is either a 2AWG or 4AWG wire. the engine block & car body grounds are also rather thick.

another thing you might look at is your engine idle speed. if you're not spinning the alternator fast enough, output will really suffer. ford sets idle speed really low in many passenger cars to meet their corporate average fuel economy (cafe)rating goals and reduce engine noise. but fleet cars like the police interceptor are cafe exempt and have less restrictive nvh (noise vibration harhness) goals so generally they have higher engine idle speeds for better charging, improved air conditioning performance at idle, and increased engine oil pressure.

btw: how did your post today get into the #1 position in this discussion thread? new posts are usually put in the last position.

edit: just noticed that my new post is in the #2 position in this thread as well.

Quote:
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I have been considering this swap. Its a turn off to me that the batt light would no longer function, but what kind of voltages are you running after the car warms up? Is it necessary to turn up the PWM controller to make the voltage sit where you want it when the car is warmed up? I know mine drops off considerably(only runs low 12v) when its warmed up all the way. You are also up north though in a cooler climate.

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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 08:13 PM
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here's a special service message from ford about the idle speed strategy in the 2003-2004 police interceptors:

17611 2003-2004 CROWN VICTORIA POLICE INTERCEPTOR - LOW CHARGING SYSTEM VOLTAGE AFTER EXTENDED IDLE
SOME 2003-2004 CROWN VICTORIA POLICE INTERCEPTOR VEHICLES MAY EXHIBIT LOW CHARGING SYSTEM VOLTAGE AND/OR A DEAD BATTERY AFTER PROLONGED IDLE WITH ACCESSORIES ON. TO SERVICE, REPROGRAM THE POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM) TO THE LATEST CALIBRATION LEVEL USING WDS RELEASE B29.9 OR HIGHER. THE NEW CALIBRATION RAISES THE BASE DRIVE IDLE FROM 544 TO 600 RPM, NEUTRAL IDLE REMAINS AT 800 RPM. THE NEW CALIBRATION ALSO DETECTS WHEN THE BATTERY VOLTAGE DROPS BELOW 11.8 VOLTS DURING AN EXTENDED IDLE AND WILL RAMP THE IDLE SPEED UP TO MAINTAIN BATTERY CHARGE. IN NEUTRAL THE IDLE SPEED WILL SLOWLY RAMP UP TO 1100 RPM. IN DRIVE THE IDLE SPEED WILL SLOWLY RAMP UP TO 800 RPM. THE IDLE SPEED WILL RETURN TO THE BASE VALUES (600 IN DRIVE, 800 IN NEUTRAL) WHEN THE BATTERY VOLTAGE RETURNS TO 12.5 VOLTS OR HIGHER.
EFFECTIVE DATE: 03/09/2004

in the earlier pre-2003 police cruisers, neutral idle speed generally seems to be somewhere in the 800RPM-1000RPM range depending on model year. the alternator does not directly communicate with the pcm in earlier cars, so the idle speed is fixed and does not ramp up like in the later 2003+ cars.

you've got a trade off with the in-gear idle speed, you get better charging the higher you go. but if you go too high, the car will lurch forward too much when it's in gear and you let off the brake pedal.

edit: noticed something else odd about this thread. i can access the thread by manually supplying the thread # to showthread.php and the thread will also display with the search function. but it's not showing up in the main page of the "TCCoA Forums > Car Related > Audio / Electronics" subforum.

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Last edited by 2vmodular; 01-01-2002 at 08:22 PM.
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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-17-2010, 06:34 PM
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High Output Alternator Upgrade for Cheap

The recent ford crown victoria police interceptors have a high output alternator conservatively rated at 200amps. This is a really powerful alternator that will actually output close to 250amps under ideal conditions. The alternator also a one-way overrunning clutch on it to eliminate belt chirp during hard acceleration transmission shifts and lower load on the intake manifold crossover where the upper alternator bracket mounts.

Wrecked police cars are common at the salvage yards and parts are not usually terribly expensive to purchase from them either. Since ford thunderbirds have 4.6L engines like the ford crownvic, you can likely adapt one of these alternators to fit in your car. I figured out how to get the alternator to work as a standalone unit without a crownvic powertrain control module present. However, you will still need to figure out something for the top mounting bracket and a higher guage alternator output wire.

An alternator from a wrecked 2009 crown victoria police interceptor



The alternator mounted to a late 1990's crownvic engine. All the ford 4.6L engines have the two lower alternator mounting stud holes in the same location.



For temporary testing purposes, i just enlarged the alternator charging post hole in the ring terminal lug with an electric drill.



Here's my circuit to get the alternator voltage regulator to powerup the field coil and set the alternator voltage setpoint somewhere in the 14V-15V range. This is an off the shelf mx066 motor speed pwm controller avaliable from bakatronics for around $25.





a graph of generator rotation speed vs output amperage



more documentation on this project is avaliable here:

http://www.p71interceptor.com/altern...ubishi/upgrade

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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-17-2010, 07:52 PM
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not bad if you can score one of those alternators for cheap
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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old 05-28-2010, 10:27 AM
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This is very interesting. So without getting too technical, could I swap over to a 6G alt that's PCM controlled and then wire up one of those controllers so that I can set my own voltage?

I seem to be plagued with low voltage and want to bump it to 14.6 or so. Is Anyone Getting 14volts or higher?

Last edited by JasonWW; 05-29-2010 at 10:13 PM.
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:33 PM
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So does this seem like a worthwhile effort to anyone?

I priced one of these babies out at my local yard and they want $70 for it with a 30 day warranty.


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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post
This is very interesting. So without getting too technical, could I swap over to a 6G alt that's PCM controlled and then wire up one of those controllers so that I can set my own voltage?

I seem to be plagued with low voltage and want to bump it to 14.6 or so. Is Anyone Getting 14volts or higher?
Me too! I am having similar problems. I am going to be doing this soon. I was curious about the battery light function. Does it still work? Will the controller set an output when voltage is too low? Thanks
-Rob

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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 07:08 PM
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The dash light should still work, but a digital gauge would be best.
I think I'm wrong here since the regulators on this model don't have a dash light wire. Instead, the PCM would light up the dash indicator if there were a problem.


The controller sets the voltage period. With no controller it should output at it's default 13.2v, but with a pwm signal you can raise it up to 15v.

$70 is pretty decent compared to an aftermarket 200 amp alternator.

I've learned that the 4G alts also have a PCM controlled regulator available as well.

Also, the big police unit pictured in post one is built by Mitsubishi. Their over $500 new.

Last edited by JasonWW; 06-10-2010 at 06:00 AM.
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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 03:01 AM
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2vmodular, have you had any issues running your alt with the mx066?

Do you think it would be fine to set it to 14.8 all the time?

Last edited by JasonWW; 06-10-2010 at 03:12 AM.
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post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
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Also, the big police unit pictured in post one is built by Mitsubishi. Their over $500 new.
The nice thing about the 2004+ CrownVic Mitsubishi alternator is that it was factory installed in mass produced production vehicles. so finding one a "pre-owned" one in a wrecked car shouldn't be very difficult.

those aftermarket high output generators were produced in really limited numbers and seem unobtainable if you're looking for a used one. by contrast, ford produced over 100,000 CrownVic police interceptors between 2004 and 2010.

That Mistubishi alternator was also engineered from the ground up to be a high output unit. here's a link to an article about why the aftermarket high output alternator conversions sometimes fail:

http://www.p71interceptor.com/altern...ighampfail.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I was curious about the battery light function. Does it still work? Will the controller set an output when voltage is too low? Thanks
-Rob
no, the mitsu alternator does not support the charge light indicator on the instrument cluster.

having a non-functional charge light on my crownvic isn't much of a concern since the car has a true voltage guage on the instrument cluster. maybe you could add an aftermarket voltage guage to your car.

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Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 09-17-2014 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Merge posts
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post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 05:30 AM
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Another question for you.

If someone wanted the larger output from this alternator, but didn't want to fool with the PWM signal, could they simply swap in a grey F600 regulator?
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post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 05:39 AM
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yes, the mitsubishi alternator is controlled with the same electrical signals as the 6G alternator in the 2003+ crownvics. there were also 4G alternators avaliable in these cars that are controlled the same way too. i have not seen any pcm controlled 3G units though.

do be aware that there are some alternators avaliable in ford vehicles that have a fixed voltage setpoint and only communicate with the pcm to send field response data to it. these alternators were never used in the crownvic, but were avaliable in some other ford vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post
This is very interesting. So without getting too technical, could I swap over to a 6G alt that's PCM controlled and then wire up one of those controllers so that I can set my own voltage?

Visit my website:

http://www.p71interceptor.com

Last edited by 2vmodular; 06-10-2010 at 05:59 AM.
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post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 05:50 AM
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that F600 regulator is for ford 6g alternators only. it will not physically fit inside one of those high output mitsubishi alternators.

and yes, you can swap regulators between 6g alternators. these are held in with 3 bolts once you get the back cover off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post
Another question for you.

If someone wanted the larger output from this alternator, but didn't want to fool with the PWM signal, could they simply swap in a grey F600 regulator?
here are a couple pictures of 6g crownvic alternators. one has a pcm controlled regulator, the other a conventional i-line regulator with a fixed voltage setpoint.



the back covers removed





the regulators out



the regulators. white=pcm regulation with variable voltage setpoint. grey=i-line with fixed voltage setpoint. you need a torx 20 bit to remove these.





one thing to keep in mind when disassembling/reassembling the 6g alternators is that the sre bearing often stays stuck to the rotor when you remove the back cover. so you'll want to have a new tolerance ring on hand, because you'll likely break yours when you remove the back cover.

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post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 05:58 AM
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Ah, so this Mitsubishi alt has Ford style "sadle" mounts to bolt onto the 4.6 and uses the same regulator plug as the 6G alt, but that's where the similarities end?

I've looked through a ton of the papers you've collected, but I can't find much info on this alternator or what parts are available for it.
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post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 06:08 AM
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Here is a pic of the Mit regulator. It looks a lot like the 6G regulator. Eh, maybe not.




Holy crap, the rectifier in this uses 16 50 amp diodes. That twice what the 3G, 4G and 6G use.


Last edited by JasonWW; 06-10-2010 at 06:16 AM.
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post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 06:09 AM
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yep, you've got it figured out.

Quote:
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Ah, so this Mitsubishi alt has Ford style "sadle" mounts to bolt onto the 4.6 and uses the same regulator plug as the 6G alt, but that's where the similarities end?
ford does not service internal alternator parts individually, so their service manuals do not have any alternator overhaul procedures in them and your local ford dealer can't sell you internal stuff like a regulator, a bearing, etc. but, you can purchase a whole complete working alternator from them.

however, there are aftermarket electrical rebuilders that do service the internal parts in alternators. one big one is WAI Wetherill on the web at http://www.wai-wetherill.com

their part # for the big crownvic mitsu alternator is 1-2514-11MI-1. Here's a link to the bill of materials for it:

http://search.waiglobal.com/partnum....=1-2514-11MI-1

http://search.waiglobal.com/bomsearc...=1-2514-11MI-1

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonWW View Post
I've looked through a ton of the papers you've collected, but I can't find much info on this alternator or what parts are available for it.

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post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 06-10-2010, 06:17 AM
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that mitsu regulator might look similar to the ford 6g one at a quick glance, but they're not similar enough to swap between the two different alternator models.

one thing i had considered was pulling that big heatsink off the mitsu alternator regulator and hacking up the circuit board inside to send the rotor field control signals out the regulator plug. this would allow you to run an external regulator on the alternator like on the 1970's cars and not need that pwm box to simulate the pcm signal. this solution looked like more trouble than it was worth in terms of long term reliability though.

Quote:
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Here is a pic of the Mit regulator. It looks a lot like the 6G regulator. Eh, .maybe not

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post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 08-13-2010, 11:02 PM
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Ok well I'm thinking about giving this a shot on my 96. Since it seems like I can get the alt itself for 70 and the PWM for around 30 I don't feel I'd be putting too much into this. So here's my questions. Has anyone does this or anything like it to their Bird yet? And exactly what wires do I need to splice for the regulator harness? I don't have any wiring schematics or I'd attempt to figure it out myself.


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post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-14-2011, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
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I picked up my alt from a '10 Crown Vic a couple of weeks ago for $85. Now I need to get the controller! This guy also has all of the schematics in the link he posted.

http://www.p71interceptor.com/altern...ubishi/upgrade

although, I am having problems getting it to work now. (The link, that is)

I need to know if I need any of the extras that go along with it on the bakatronics site. I am thinking about getting the cooling fan and enclosure box to help protect it. Is the fan really necessary?

http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=581

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post #21 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-16-2011, 05:23 AM
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post #22 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-18-2011, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
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Does anyone know why p71interceptor.com isnt working? That was a good write-up on this alternator swap and install. I wanted to make sure I get all of the right components before I hook it up for the first time. I tried PMing 2vmodular, but I havent gotten a response yet.

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post #23 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-19-2011, 12:23 AM
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post #24 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-19-2011, 02:16 AM
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I just gave a slight effort in seeing if Google might have a cache of the page. I had no such luck.


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post #25 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-01-2011, 11:39 AM
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So....anyone done this? I tried to get a quote from Nations Starter & Alternator,but they never got back to me dammit. Lol.
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post #26 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-01-2011, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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I am still holding off on ordering the controller. I have the pretty alternator sitting in the office at the shop though... for motivation I think getting the box is a good idea, but what about the cooling fan? Is it necessary? I am probably going to mount the controller inside the car somewhere so I can change the duty cycle if I want to.

EDIT: I also want to get the wiring diagrams from 2vmodular, but I am sure it wouldnt be too hard to figure out. I cant remember if anything extra is needed besides the controller and the pigtail for the newer alternator (I have a used one laying around...I think).

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post #27 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 09:02 AM
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FYI, Wayback has the writeup text but the "image server is down"
- I wouldnt count on it ever being back up and google didnt crawl the images, either

http://web.archive.org/web/201007240...bishi/upgrade/

I saved the article text and picture links to desktop just for drill but I have no use for the mod.. at this time, anyway

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post #28 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
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I am still holding off on ordering the controller. I have the pretty alternator sitting in the office at the shop though... for motivation I think getting the box is a good idea, but what about the cooling fan? Is it necessary? I am probably going to mount the controller inside the car somewhere so I can change the duty cycle if I want to.

EDIT: I also want to get the wiring diagrams from 2vmodular, but I am sure it wouldnt be too hard to figure out. I cant remember if anything extra is needed besides the controller and the pigtail for the newer alternator (I have a used one laying around...I think).
I would get the cooling fan to be on the safe side. Git r dun already! I wanna try it after you do, lol.

Anyone have any good jy's near them? Need to see what kind of price I can find for the alt. If I dont do this mod, I'll likely get a HO alt from american armature.
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post #29 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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There is one of these at my local pick N pull in the cop car still. I think it's like an 08 or so. I havent priced it and my cousin cant use it on his Mark, since I dont think the alternator will clear the crossover tube. I just called them and they want right at $50 for it. I paid $85 for mine!!! I could go pick it up for someone soon if they wanted.

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post #30 of 66 (permalink) Old 10-02-2011, 01:46 PM
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