next on the agenda: project over-drive alternator - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 08:54 PM Thread Starter
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are you sure that it was the underdrive pulley that caused the failure? here's an interesting article that i found about alternators that have been modified to output more power:

http://www.p71interceptor.com/altern...ighampfail.pdf

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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i've been collecting measurements of a few different crown victoria alternator pulleys with a digital caliper to see how much the alternator rotor is overdriven:

1999 6G police interceptor F5AU-A2A = 54mm.
2005 6G civilian crownvic F0VU-A2A = 59mm
2004 mitsubishi 200amp police interceptor= 55mm.

Aftermarket wai 24-2254 pulley for 6G civilian & 6G police = 56.5mm (compromise halfway between 54mm & 59mm).

And one measurement of a 2008 econoline van 6G FO7U-A2A alternator pulley = 64mm

i'm suspecting that thunderbirds with the 4.6L engine use the same engine harmonic damper as the crownvic. so the pulley overdrive ratios will be the same.

one issue that the police interceptors with the 54mm alternator pullies do have is that there are belt slip issues when driving in wet weather. drive through a big puddle, and you can often see the voltage guage dip, the lights dim, and hear a high pitched squeal noise from the engine bay.

there is also a 48mm alternator 6G pulley that was used in the countour/mystique. i'm suspecting that these cars had a smaller diameter harmonic balancer so the effective spin speed of the rotor was comparable to that of of a thunderbird with a larger diameter alternator pulley.

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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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the 1999 police interceptors with the 54mm alternator pulley had a rev limiter of a little over 6000RPM. if you use a 3:1 crankshaft->alternator overdrive ratio, this would equate to the alternator spinning at around 18,000 rpm when the engine was spinning near red line.

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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-01-2002, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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it should. but sometimes, the regulator full fields the rotor when it fails. this can be disastrous for the rest of the electronics in your car. if you rev the engine up, a full fielded alternator can usually put out close to a 100 volts if the rectifier diodes don't fail first.

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Doesn't the voltage regulator compensate for too much voltage?

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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 08:08 PM
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next on the agenda: project over-drive alternator

found this baby online real cheap so i figured i'd give it a try





stock pulley size for a 4.6 130A alternator is 57mm (groove-to-groove, not outer flange-to-outer flange)....this one is 48mm.....which equates to running the alternator ~20% faster for any given crank RPM

havent put it on yet cause i dont have the socket for the nut on the alternator......i also want to take some voltage measurements with the car cold/hot with A/C on/off and see the differences in charging ability.....should have some results by tomorrow

i know some of you might say i will damage the alternator due to it spinning higher, especially with my higher than stock shift points.....yea it might get damaged, but it has infinite lives at Autozone

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 09:51 PM
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haha, beat ya to it, i did it already, i have my underdrives on the 94 now as well, helps a little when idling in traffic with my ac on full blast....

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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 09:57 PM
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i had an overdrive pully made some time ago. mine is small enough that the nut has to be infront of the pully. there was no room for a nut inside of the front.

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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 10:01 PM
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wow, that small huh? i just used a pulley off of my 92's 70 amp alt, worked out really well for an easy - no custom fabbing job....

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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 10:37 PM
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ah but the 70A pulley turns out to be the same as the 4.6 130A alt pulley...so us 4.6 guys have to look for something even smaller
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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 10:46 PM
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really? it was a little smaller than my 94's, did they have different size pulleys then between the 4.6 and the 3.8? but another thing you should look at is how much lower the area that the belt actually rides on is much lower between the two pullies, oscar, shouldn't that be also taken into account?

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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 10:53 PM
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yea those 3.8 130A alts have pulleys bigger than the one on the 4.6 130A alts.....3.8 70 alt pulley=4.6 130A alt pulley...thats why your 70A alt pulley helped your 130A alt......it dropped it down to the size ofthe 4.6 130A alt pulley

luckily, from the position the tensioner is placed on the older style 4.6s, there is not too much area lost....it would be a problem however on the some of the newer style 4.6s that have the bullit-style alt and different belt routing and tensioner position

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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar maestro
yea those 3.8 130A alts have pulleys bigger than the one on the 4.6 130A alts.....3.8 70A alt pulley=4.6 130A alt pulley...thats why your 70A alt pulley helped your 130A alt......it dropped it down to the size ofthe 4.6 130A alt pulley
here ya go, fixed it for you....

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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-23-2005, 11:41 PM
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haha...yea....too many pulleys to keep track of...
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-24-2005, 12:39 AM
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this overdriven pulley is great for cars with underdrive pulleys. actually i was looking for one but didn't find any info of it nor knowing it's existence until now. i have 200 amp altenator and doesn't have the lower rpm charging capacity compare to stock one and with my underdrive pulley this get worsen.

can you please provide a link to where to get it?

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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-24-2005, 03:33 AM
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yea, sure....here ya go

http://www.alternatorparts.com/pulley_size.htm

EDIT 10.1.06: another place i just found to get the same exact 1-7/8" pulley:

http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=67

only $10 there

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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-24-2005, 01:34 PM
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How much smaller of a belt will need to go in that engine?

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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-24-2005, 01:44 PM
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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-24-2005, 10:23 PM
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update.......the rear of the pulley is machined differently compared to the stock pulley.....so it is NOT a bolt-on mod.....i will have to modify it to work......should be done by tomorrow if i find the drill bit i need from a buddy of mine
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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-24-2005, 10:32 PM
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i had to use a washer to move mine forward a little, the pulley would touch the casing when tightened down all the way, only bad part is the nut only has about two-thirds worth of thread to hold on to, lol, i gotta remember to put some threadlocker on it so it don't fall off, i meant to do it a while back but forgot about it, figures,

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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-25-2005, 03:28 AM
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yea same here, but im gonna have to custom-make a washer so that the bottom rim of the pulley touches the bearing surface where the original pulley used to sit on......my new pulley doesnt have enough clearance on the back....and too much on the front....so im gonna have to make more washers so the nut gets to tighten the pulley down...more on this later today
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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-25-2005, 07:33 AM
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if you make more than you need i'll be glad to take the extras off your hands, i just used the washer that originally went behind the nut, lol....

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-25-2005, 01:03 PM
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my alternator didnt have any washers behind the nut
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-25-2005, 04:28 PM
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i thought it was supposed to have a washer back there lol, but what i meant was the washers you are gonna make fit. i couldn't find any here that would only ride on the bearing surface, the one i put there was the thick flat washer that was behind the nut originally, but it is too thick to allow the nut to get more than a few threads to hold on to, if you know where to find some that would be thinner to allow me to shim the pulley properly, lmk, i looked all over the place for them and could never find any.

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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 09-25-2005, 05:04 PM
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well let me tell ya......it took a while, but i finally got it all to work perfectly......pics and write-up coming as soon as my camera phone uploads the pics to my email

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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 02:36 AM
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ok finally got the damn pics to work

the main difference in the pulleys is this:




1. the width of the rim of the new smaller pulley is about twice as thick as a stock pulley........the rim width of the stock pulley is just a tad over 1/8", while the new smaller pulley's rim is closer to 1/4" wide

2. the stock pulley is counter-sunk on the back side, just like the front, although not as much......this is needed in the stock configuration because the alternator casing has a small flange that protrudes out from the alternator.....the back of the smaller pulley is completely flat

3. the rim on the stock pulley is 1/16" longer....this is crucial as well because with out this clearance, the small pulley would sit completely flush on the alternator casing and would not be able to turn at all

so i went to work on the alternator first, and grinded away the protruding flange......i didnt get a pic of what it looked like before but this is what it looked like after.....completely flat around the pulley shaft....the red drawn in represents roughly the height of the flange that was there




so then i needed to reduce the rim width on the small pulley to about 1/8" wide.....i grinded it away with a small cylindrical grinding stone on my dremel until i got it as close as i could to the 1/8" it needed to be

now, my efforts to find a washer to shim the pulley the proper amount were futile......so i had to custom make one........the washers that i bought were 1-1/2" wide, 1/16" thick, with a 3/8" hole in the center...........the center hole needed to be 11/16" to fit on the alternator shaft.......i didnt have such a large drill bit, and it turns out those were all over $10 everywhere i looked........so i used a tapered-cone (shaped like a K&N cone filter) type grinding stone on the dremel that would go into 3/8" hole.......i worked it around and around, until finally the hole was approx 11/16" and fit like a charm




i made 3 washers just like this....one to shim the pulley forward, and two to put in front of the pulley.......reason for those other two is that the threads on the alternator shaft end too early for the nut to tighten down the pulley on the bearing surface and thus turn the alternator........with two washers behind the nut, it allows you to properly tighten the nut to hold the pulley down

next was to reduce the outer diameter of the washer to clear the opening in the casing.........the opening is just slightly larger than the rim on the original pulley, so the washer's outer diameter had to be reduced from 1-1/2" down to about 1".......you may be thinging, "why didnt he just get a 1" diameter washer to begin with?"......reason is, i could not find those washers in 1/16" thick......the 1" ones were way too thin and flimsy.....so i grinded all 3 washers down to about 1" in diameter, and looked just like the one that shims the pulley forward away from the casing




a bit time consuming to do all that grinding but in the end it wasn't too bad at all




idle voltage went up about 0.3-0.4 volts, and with Max A/C running at full blast, voltage was up by about 0.5V compared to before

so there you have it........no problems with belt slack either......the tensioner takes up the miniscule extra slack
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 02:17 PM
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Good tech. thanks for sharing.

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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 02:24 PM
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maybe my mind is just in retard mode but, how does smaller pully = more volts. Doesnt a smaller pully mean less turns? where am i not thinking correctly?

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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 04:20 PM
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you got it backwards, smaller pulley = more turns, more turns on the pulley means more volts out of the alternator at idle.

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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 11:32 PM
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Diameter of larger pulley:
Pi x diameter = 3.14x57 ~= 179

Diameter of smaller pulley:
Pi x diameter = 3.14x48 ~= 151

179/151 ~= 1.185

So you have a 18.5% increase.

Immagine 28.5mm. You'd increase 100%. And probably blow your alt then. Unless you cruise at 3kRPM max.

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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-08-2005, 11:53 PM
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ha, that's the perfect 18.5% that i need.

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