Fastest N/A 2v MN12??? - Page 5 - TCCoA Forums

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post #121 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-22-2012, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 94mncougar View Post
Not to go too far off topic, but the only difference between the F150 and the Mustang Coyotes are the cams, right? Also, IIRC the coyote is lighter and physically smaller than the 4.6L 4V, right?

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Stephen
F150 5.0s have less compression via different pistons.
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post #122 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-22-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 94mncougar View Post
Not to go too far off topic, but the only difference between the F150 and the Mustang Coyotes are the cams, right? Also, IIRC the coyote is lighter and physically smaller than the 4.6L 4V, right?

Thanks,

Stephen
Half point of compression and the different intake cams. You can buy new Mustang intake cams for $118 each. It is a little lighter/smaller.

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post #123 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 10:42 AM
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A lot of tbird guys own tbirds because they are different; otherwise we would all be driving mustangs or crown vics. The 2v the tbird comes with is a POS compared with the coyote or the 3v modulars and even GM's LS motors but that's not the point, people are keeping the 2vs because its different, they're taking the POS motor and making it worth a damn. Someone took a mid 15 second car and made it run mid 12s with out a power adder, and that's pretty sweet in my book. Someone comes up to 1MTNcat or paintme205, etc and say damn that thing is fast what's in it? 'Oh nothing really just heads and cams.' On the other hand if they had a coyote in there, yeah that would be cool as hell but duh that's going to be fast your ready pushing 425 hp. You can't even add power modifications to the damn thing because your already struggling to get power to the ground.

But I understand what's being said here.. With my few minor mods I haven't really spent that much on my car but I can still run with a lot of unsuspecting ricers and a few mustangs / camaros.

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post #124 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 04:36 PM
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A lot of tbird guys own tbirds because they are different; otherwise we would all be driving mustangs or crown vics. The 2v the tbird comes with is a POS compared with the coyote or the 3v modulars and even GM's LS motors but that's not the point, people are keeping the 2vs because its different, they're taking the POS motor and making it worth a damn. Someone took a mid 15 second car and made it run mid 12s with out a power adder, and that's pretty sweet in my book. Someone comes up to 1MTNcat or paintme205, etc and say damn that thing is fast what's in it? 'Oh nothing really just heads and cams.' On the other hand if they had a coyote in there, yeah that would be cool as hell but duh that's going to be fast your ready pushing 425 hp. You can't even add power modifications to the damn thing because your already struggling to get power to the ground.

But I understand what's being said here.. With my few minor mods I haven't really spent that much on my car but I can still run with a lot of unsuspecting ricers and a few mustangs / camaros.
I don't think you have to lecture Kris on making a 12 sec N/A 2V Thunderbird

-Matt
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post #125 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 04:42 PM
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I don't think you have to lecture Kris on making a 12 sec N/A 2V Thunderbird
He was making a rhetorical statement. He's only stating that Kris has moved on from his 2V 4.6 MN12, where as we haven't.
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post #126 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 05:50 PM
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I agree with Kris tho. I probably will not be doing heads or spending much more on my 2v simply because of the limits that are reached so quickly. A sissy blower on the other hand I could see

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post #127 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 07:17 PM
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Well a 2v with a proper cam and tfs heads will go 11s easy I gurantee it,

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post #128 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 11:33 PM
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You know... Kdanner makes a lot of sense though. For a bit more money than a TFS head swap or less depending on how good of a deal you can get, you can more than double the HP and have a great motor with state of the art technology in it. Of course this is assuming that you already have the rest of the car built as you would either way.

I did some napkin math. I personally wanted to upgrade my heads/cams, and put a Tork Tech on mine with a built bottom end in it. That is somewhere in the neighborhood of 11-13k in what I wanted to do. Keep in mind that for that money I would probably be pushing about (and this is an estimate) @500hp at the crank.

Even if you bought a brand new Coyote at @6-7k and the controller at @1,200 you would still be at about @9k or so and you would have 400+ at the crank with a nice savings for any power adders, etc etc etc. With state of the art technology to boot. From what I'm told the Coyote will drop right in too, just need to worry about the exhaust which would be a concern if you wanted a true beast anyway. I think again, if I had the money and time to do it, I would probably be giving this option a lot of thought before I made my final decision.

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post #129 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
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Well a 2v with a proper cam and tfs heads will go 11s easy I gurantee it,
I've seen it in a mustang before but an mn12?


I think the coyote swap is a little more involved than just exhaust modifications. What about wiring and and the ECU? Doesn't it also have variable valve timing like the 3v? I've don't a little research on the 3v swap and its really not as bad as people say it is.. Whether or not its worth the hassle compared to a straight explorer swap is debatable..

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post #130 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 10:53 AM
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Rick Pingols car has run 12.12 with a TrickFlow cam and there are much better cams, but he was on short notice when we did his swap, for 6 grand I could duplicate trunk monkeys setup, and in all honesty run faster with a stock motor, stay tuned as we get and SVO car into the 11s on stock cams and stock explorer motor.

The Coyote is a great setup, but I guess it boils down to wether u want it all motor or not, I'll never try to do an all motor setup, I just like the top end pull of the blower, I guess I should start a build thread on my new setup, but no one prolly cares cause its has sissy power adder.

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post #131 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 12:29 PM
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You got laughing gas now Robert? Cause I wouldn't call the vortech a sissy power adder lol.

And by no means was I saying that we should all stop what we are doing with the 2v setups. I just can't ignore that bang for buck your getting a hell of a headstart on the curve by getting a Coyote in there first. Then you can go nuts with Prochargers, vortech, whipple etc on it. I've actually seen, unfortunately only on mustangs, but doing 9's on stock Coyote's which is just amazing to me. All they did to the motor was add a blower, fuel upgrades etc of course. Like I've said before the other supporting mods would be done anyway, so I'm only concerned with the motor.

@Tbird1997 - yes you still need the pcm and harness but that was in my price list when I posted and it's a stand alone controller so I don't think it requires much more work than doing a normal swap of any other motor. Ive been doing more research here lately and it's looking like the only real hassles would be the exhaust maybe, who knows it might drop in, since I can't find anyone that has done this on a mn12 yet we don't know. The other thing would be the power steering imo, the coyote does not use a power steering pump so ... would probably have to fabricate a way to mount our pumps to the motor - shouldn't be all that bad imo. Don't know maybe one day I'll be the first to do it, maybe not, but it's worth my time and effort imho to find all the possibilities before starting.

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post #132 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 01:12 PM
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Well what about a/c that will be custom completely and they make a bracket for power steering pump u will need to tuners one for car computer and one for motor others wise lights will be going nuts

Robert

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post #133 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 01:52 PM
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A/C uses the same mounting. PS relocation adds to the cost(and it looks like EVO is lost) but yeah the wiring and namely controllers are the issue. The 3V vct is caveman tech compared to the Coyote.

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post #134 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 01:59 PM
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The coyote a/c is different Dan at pro dyno is doing one and they had to get custom a/c stuff for fabing it all, other wise they wouldn't have done all that
plus I'm certain the a/c is on a different side
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post #135 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 04:41 PM
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Ac is on the passenger side on the coyote and if it is not the same Vintage Air sells a kit for the PS pump and AC all in one with all the bracketing etc. As far as the wiring etc, like I said I just started to research this. I'll let you know what I find out.

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post #136 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 05:03 PM
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I still think for the cost involved I can make a 2v run faster than a stock coyote, sure the coyote has more potential, I know of a budget build we did trick flow heads trickflow stage 2 cam, used cobra pistons, eBay rods old explorer block out of junk pile in a heavy a$$ very 17x9 wheels with low compression 9.1 car ran 12.1 @ 111 mph, that in a hard top and 11.1 compression would see mid 11s I'm sure, if u want a coyote I say just by 11 up mustang or a 11 up 5.0 truck, but what do I know

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post #137 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 06:42 PM
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You know a hell of a lot, we would not keep going to you if you didn't. I'm by no means saying you can't do what you say you can. What I'm looking at (again if I ever did this project and that is a big if) is the fact when you are said and done you would make a mid 11 second car on a budget and it would work great, but without getting completely nuts like your car you would never see the 10's if that's what your even after.

I'm really not after a 10 second car, however to me you can't beat the fact that a N/A car with a stock motor will pull in the 12's and then if you wanted to add a blower at a very small amount of boost you could go anywhere you wanted to depending on budget, time, and of course willingness to do it.

Even you have to admit, you're pretty much at the limit of what your motor can do... And it's doing a hell of a lot, but the coyote with a vortech and your chassis setup etc would just be getting warmed up imo. You could get even your beast into the 8's with your knowledge and knowhow. For ppl that just want plain fast no matter the cost that's the way to go imo. For ppl like me that want a great driver than can embarass some other cars when you want to, I am still on the fence but leaning heavily towards doing the Coyote swap.

No this is not a pipedream lol, I never said I would do the swap, just saying it's a very attractive option if I decide to mod out my LX that's all.

Oh I found the link for the vintage air PS pump and AC included - http://www.vintageair.com/2012catalo...Page%2058).pdf

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post #138 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 07:07 PM
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Ps my motor was built for and svo, it was never intended to have a vortech on it, and as far as limits, I want say its done I plan to run a. 9.9x with a cast crank the other thing is, a coyote car has a 6 speed so that's definetly a advantage, also a mustang has a way better rear suspension that a bird so I doubt it would go 8s, in a mustang chassis yea I would see it possible heck my setup in mustang would prolly run 9.70s easy, since we're thinking I'm maxed out ill make my thread on this chrismtas eve I plan to push it over 800 rwhp on the t trim and if I ever switch to a ysi the car could be in the 900 range on 23-24 psi

Look under the 4.6 engine forums

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post #139 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 09:36 PM
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N/A I agree with you, but you can boost a bone stock 2V safely to coyote performance levels for a few grand if you look for the right deals on a blower(SVO or centri). Big power builds and trying to just get more than 300rwhp N/A through an auto IRS are what can/will take Coyote level investment, at the moment anyway.

Wiring, engine management and don't forget trans control(the Ford controller kit is effectively stand alone for the engine only) are big issues. The way cars are networked now basically nix the option of getting junkyard PCMs and wiring unless you adapt every other system and feature to work, and the result in that instance usually ends up expensive-ghetto since function and fitment doesn't jive with the rest of the car.

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post #140 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95LX4.6 View Post
You know a hell of a lot, we would not keep going to you if you didn't. I'm by no means saying you can't do what you say you can. What I'm looking at (again if I ever did this project and that is a big if) is the fact when you are said and done you would make a mid 11 second car on a budget and it would work great, but without getting completely nuts like your car you would never see the 10's if that's what your even after.

I'm really not after a 10 second car, however to me you can't beat the fact that a N/A car with a stock motor will pull in the 12's and then if you wanted to add a blower at a very small amount of boost you could go anywhere you wanted to depending on budget, time, and of course willingness to do it.

Even you have to admit, you're pretty much at the limit of what your motor can do... And it's doing a hell of a lot, but the coyote with a vortech and your chassis setup etc would just be getting warmed up imo. You could get even your beast into the 8's with your knowledge and knowhow. For ppl that just want plain fast no matter the cost that's the way to go imo. For ppl like me that want a great driver than can embarass some other cars when you want to, I am still on the fence but leaning heavily towards doing the Coyote swap.

No this is not a pipedream lol, I never said I would do the swap, just saying it's a very attractive option if I decide to mod out my LX that's all.

Oh I found the link for the vintage air PS pump and AC included - http://www.vintageair.com/2012catalo...Page%2058).pdf
Not exactly so. But again ours is old technology compared to the New Coyote 5.0.

Surely you can make a car that has nearly double the HP be more easily capable of running big numbers and being streetable. I've seen some basically stock high 12's out of some Mustangs at Mason Dixon which only means they would run quicker elsewhere and that is impressive. The same thing applies if you would add a power adder to the car. Even more impressive.

But the statement about an NA MN12 car on a basically stock set up running in the 12's is not true. Mine with bolt ons and just stage 1 cams on a stock NPI bottom end and Stock PI swapped car is already there, so it is doable. I have a very small set of cams in the car and probably no larger basically than a 5.0 and 2 less valves. There again technology makes the gains. As far as 11's, my same combination has run well down in the 11's on the spray. A good set of ported and polished heads, cams and kooks could likely put it in the 10's.

The point is, like Kris said, its just not as easy to make it happen with the older technology. The new stuff is light years ahead in initial power and efficiency, plain and simple. The aftermarket will respond to it as well. Just like the new 4.6 2V stuff is better.

Another example is EECDOC's car. It has gone 10.0's with a .20 over cast Iron 4.6 shortblock, Stage 2 Ported and Polished heads, A small set of Blower cams that are 10 years old and a 10 year old Allen Race blower set up. If he ever stepped up to another updated drivetrain who knows what the car could accomplish.

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post #141 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 01:11 AM
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I think you might have misunderstood my statement about the MN12 part.

I was saying that the Coyote in stock trim with supporting trans and rear/suspension mods could pull of 12's. No MN12 that I'm aware of in stock form with just trans, rear, suspension mods can even come close to that. You have many mods done to your motor and are in the 12's NA which is impressive, but a Coyote in stock form can do it just by figuring out how to get it in there.

Hope that clears it up some, we do basically agree on everything else lol.

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post #142 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 08:14 AM
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Steve motor is a box stock npi motor with stock Pi heads and a small cam I barely call that highly modified, and plenty of us have gone 13s on stock motors let alone I had the stock 95 intake

A gear swap and converter swap we put any mn12 v8 in the 13s if its done right, a 11 mustang come with much lower gears than a mn12, also a coyote is 11.1 as Steve said that's technology there, I mean my stock npi motor went 12.1 with out meth injection, the old 2v is plenty capable

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95 bird - Vortech t trim
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10.11 @ 139.19 best mph
1.47 best 60ft if I can get a full pass with this 60ftt
All made possible with Braincoating'™s ported manifolds
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post #143 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 08:56 AM
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There things are just air pumps.
The more air in the more power.The new 5 liter
is not reinventing the wheel.

Most of the computer function is for mileage and emissions.
Think of a V-4 at highway speeds.

Quickest N/A Modular MN12.
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post #144 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95LX4.6 View Post
I think you might have misunderstood my statement about the MN12 part.

I was saying that the Coyote in stock trim with supporting trans and rear/suspension mods could pull of 12's. No MN12 that I'm aware of in stock form with just trans, rear, suspension mods can even come close to that. You have many mods done to your motor and are in the 12's NA which is impressive, but a Coyote in stock form can do it just by figuring out how to get it in there.

Hope that clears it up some, we do basically agree on everything else lol.
I don't have many mods to my motor as Robert pointed out. I have switched to stock PI heads to bump the compression on a stock NPI shortblock and a small set of cams. I do have the bullitt intake and TB to help induce airflow. So its nothing really special and has 2 less valves and less compression.

A stock Coyote has what 415 HP? A stock NPI MN12 96-97 version had what 205 HP? Stock 4.6 had maybe 9.4-1 compression. A Coyote has 11.0-1 or so. 2V vs 4V. Technology!!! I agree with that.

Also take into account parasitic drivetrain losses. Again Technology.

Robert is correct. There have have been stock NPI cars run down in the 13's-High 14's with no engine work other than tunes, converters, gears and a better exhaust. The Mustang in its form has in some way implemented all that in the drivetrain with better gearing both trans and rear, Manual option of course, and a solid axle generally robs less power than a IRS and is much more stable for track purposes. I read somewhere that the heads on the coyote are the most efficient that Ford has ever produced. A lot different than an NPI 2V Bird/Cougar.

Again, I'm not disputing the technology and I think we all agree on what Kris said about that. But I also agree you can make a 2V more efficient by upping compression, adding better heads, cams exhaust and refinining the drivetrain to a point that they run well.

Mine is proof of that, BUT, IT AINT NO COYOTE!!

Steve
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post #145 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 12:05 PM
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Well said imo. Either way I go it can be done. Just one way will have vastly more potential and could potentially cost a whole lot more time, and headaches (coyote swap) The one thing I'm very interested in is once you get the stand alone tranny controller will the guages and all the interior goodies work? I mean I know you need a stand alone controller for both engine and tranny - no biggie have found both very easily. Now the question remains... will I have to mock up a guage cluster or can I make the stock guages work. That happens to be my weakest point on cars is wiring new things. I'm not so nervous about the controllers because they come with pre wired harnesses, so it's plug and play, but ripping the guages and having to figure out what wire goes where... now that's where I'm weak at lol. Oh well lot's to chew on and it's not like anything is happening tomorrow I very much enjoy these conversations, imho it's what makes forums like these so much fun. Merry Christmas guys. Hope it's a good one.

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post #146 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 12:11 PM
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Getting gauges to work shouldant be a problem

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post #147 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdanner View Post
Half point of compression and the different intake cams. You can buy new Mustang intake cams for $118 each. It is a little lighter/smaller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar maestro View Post
F150 5.0s have less compression via different pistons.
Thanks, guys! Are the cams different just to detune, or are they setup for better low end torque? Considering many people daily drive their race MN12's, has anyone run the Coyote with a 4 speed transmission? Please be gentle as I am a noob to tuning, but is the stand alone controller for the Coyote optimized for 6 speeds or would it make no difference? I'm not sure what or if there is a difference in accounting for Manual vs Auto, either.

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post #148 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-25-2012, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 95LX4.6 View Post
Well said imo. Either way I go it can be done. Just one way will have vastly more potential and could potentially cost a whole lot more time, and headaches (coyote swap) The one thing I'm very interested in is once you get the stand alone tranny controller will the guages and all the interior goodies work? I mean I know you need a stand alone controller for both engine and tranny - no biggie have found both very easily. Now the question remains... will I have to mock up a guage cluster or can I make the stock guages work. That happens to be my weakest point on cars is wiring new things. I'm not so nervous about the controllers because they come with pre wired harnesses, so it's plug and play, but ripping the guages and having to figure out what wire goes where... now that's where I'm weak at lol. Oh well lot's to chew on and it's not like anything is happening tomorrow I very much enjoy these conversations, imho it's what makes forums like these so much fun. Merry Christmas guys. Hope it's a good one.
You can make everything work, but it's not even close to plug and play.

I only brought up the gauge cluster earlier because if you were to use a factory Coyote PCM from a wrecked Mustang or F150, instead of the controller kit, it needs to interface with certain controllers like the BCM to work correctly, ergo needs to interface with the cluster and a few other various systems in order to work.

-Matt
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post #149 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 12:22 AM
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Thanks Matt not really helpful but thanks lol. Well if I decide to this I will wait till I have the parts in hand no matter which way I decide to go before posting a thread so I don't get called a pipedreamer or just another person that isn't going anywhere with the project.

As far as the guage cluster, I'm really having absolutely no luck finding any info on what it would take if anything to keep them working etc. So if anyone has any info on what if anything would have to be done to keep them working if I decided to go Coyote, pls PM me with a link or the info needed. Much appreciated.

@Stephen, from what I've read the stand alone controller for the engine is only for the engine and basis the fact you will be using a manual tranny. If you use an auto, you have to get a stand alone controller for the tranny as well. So that takes care of both of them, my problem will be what will happen to the guage pod etc after all that. As far as the cams I believe the F150 as stated earlier has .5 CR lower and different intake cams which are torquier and a bit less HP from what I've read iirc.

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post #150 of 154 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 12:45 AM
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The MN12 cluster uses signals from non PCM related sensors(ECT, Fuel level, Oil, Volts, VSS)as long as you retain those you're good to go as for running it. The Tach would be the only issue if there isn't a tach output on the Coyote PCM(which likely uses a Bus circuit to communicate ALL of the cluster functions), in which case you'll need some kind of tach adapter. It is very possible Ford programed the PCM to have a separate tach signal output though. A pinout diagram would confirm that or not.

The lack of plug and play comes in because the dash harness connects to the EEC wiring harness and engine harness. All the wires for the cluster sensors and such would have to be run in place of it since the kit will effectively replace the stock EEC and engine harness.

-Matt
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