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post #211 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-19-2017, 08:28 PM
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Wow~! High 10's is crazy fast. I can't wait to see your dyno numbers.

You do know - as I've been told more times than I care to count - that anything sub 11.5 *technically* requires a roll cage?

I'll never cage my car and I doubt you would either but don't be surprised if a track throws you out for running sub 11.5 without a cage. At the very least you're going to need to buy a DOT approved helmet.

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post #212 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-20-2017, 05:33 PM
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Wow~! High 10's is crazy fast. I can't wait to see your dyno numbers.

You do know - as I've been told more times than I care to count - that anything sub 11.5 *technically* requires a roll cage?

I'll never cage my car and I doubt you would either but don't be surprised if a track throws you out for running sub 11.5 without a cage. At the very least you're going to need to buy a DOT approved helmet.
I thought it was either 10.99 or 11.99. It may have changed since 10+ years ago when I cared. You can skate around this rule at certain drag stripes, for example Cecil County Dragway. I hung it with a dude with a super awesome 300 SRT8. He was supercharged and clicking off 10.3 10.2s, quiet car to. He would run, then wait a good 30-60 minutes, then go run again. They never really hassled him, but his car was quiet, and black, it may be different with a thunderbird, people may notice, you just dont see them often. You could do a 4 or 6 point cage and keep it sectioned off to the rear, then not use your rear seats?

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post #213 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-20-2017, 05:37 PM
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I thought it was either 10.99 or 11.99. It may have changed since 10+ years ago when I cared. You can skate around this rule at certain drag stripes, for example Cecil County Dragway. I hung it with a dude with a super awesome 300 SRT8. He was supercharged and clicking off 10.3 10.2s, quiet car to. He would run, then wait a good 30-60 minutes, then go run again. They never really hassled him, but his car was quiet, and black, it may be different with a thunderbird, people may notice, you just dont see them often. You could do a 4 or 6 point cage and keep it sectioned off to the rear, then not use your rear seats?
I've mostly just been lurking and watching this thread. It's worth noting that there was a story posted on here about a young man in Texas that had a really fast T-Bird that he wrecked and died in at the strip. I'm thinking that if you're putting the time and effort into this car to make it that fast then I think your life and the impact on your young family if you lost it would be enough to have you reconsider about putting the appropriate safety equipment in place.

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post #214 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-20-2017, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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Yea I'm a safety guy and always have been. If my car is required to have items in place to be safe at the track I'll invest in the extra parts and put them on the car. The rules are there for a reason. Anyone watch the show Street Outlaws on Discovery channel? Whether that show is staged or not, every single car “Street Racing” has a roll cage. Just saying…

That being said, I've been on more than a few car accidents with my job (firefighter) and I've seen mangled bodies and body parts spread all over the highway. I know the streets are different from the track, but some of the wrecks I've been on had a roll cage the occupants may have survived. I know a minivan is not required to have a roll cage on the streets, but I'm just saying if it HAD a roll cage the survival would be better. I remember I made this comment years ago on this forum and I got CAPS from a few guys.

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post #215 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-20-2017, 11:39 PM
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Well not to fuel the debate but I couldn't disagree more with the last paragraph. If a minivan had rollcage and had the occupants been wearing the standard 3 point seatbelts without helmets on, expect an equally gruesome scene inside a less mangled van. The thing to bear in mind for automotive safety is high speed and low speed accidents use very opposing means to up the odds of survival within. Racing safety equipment works very much in tandem with each other - just wearing a helmet in a standard unibody and hitting a wall @ 100mph is going to turn you into swiss cheese, wearing a racing harness anchored to the floor or rear deck will compress your spine and probably paralyze you if you're lucky, worse crashes the structure will collapse rendering that connection useless, and just having a cage will be akin to getting thrown into a jungle gym at several Gs. This isn't me debating track rules(not that I don't think a few are stupid and arbitrary), but the topic of streetcars using race equiptment is a different ball game.

As for street outlaws, ever see any of them get into those cars without a helmet and firesuit?

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post #216 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-21-2017, 05:51 AM
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OK, I didn't intend to dampen the mood. The car is awesome so let's get back to the build. I think we're all generally on the same page so carry on.
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post #217 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-21-2017, 08:42 AM
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OK, I didn't intend to dampen the mood. The car is awesome so let's get back to the build. I think we're all generally on the same page so carry on.
Agreed. Let the cage debate go. Buy yourself a good helmet, a mouth piece and a neck brace and call it good. You can get by with the basics.

Great car Josh. I look forward to following this as you finish it up.

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post #218 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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OK, I didn't intend to dampen the mood. The car is awesome so let's get back to the build. I think we're all generally on the same page so carry on.
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Agreed. Let the cage debate go. Buy yourself a good helmet, a mouth piece and a neck brace and call it good. You can get by with the basics.

Great car Josh. I look forward to following this as you finish it up.
Thanks guys, it's all good, I'm always up for a friendly debate now and then. You should see the Facebook group, lots more. You guys should visit and join the group, lots of activity, tho you don't have any moderator powers to ban newbs, lol. Rod and Vic are doing a good job keeping sales posts off.

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Well not to fuel the debate but I couldn't disagree more with the last paragraph. If a minivan had rollcage and had the occupants been wearing the standard 3 point seatbelts without helmets on, expect an equally gruesome scene inside a less mangled van. The thing to bear in mind for automotive safety is high speed and low speed accidents use very opposing means to up the odds of survival within. Racing safety equipment works very much in tandem with each other - just wearing a helmet in a standard unibody and hitting a wall @ 100mph is going to turn you into swiss cheese, wearing a racing harness anchored to the floor or rear deck will compress your spine and probably paralyze you if you're lucky, worse crashes the structure will collapse rendering that connection useless, and just having a cage will be akin to getting thrown into a jungle gym at several Gs. This isn't me debating track rules(not that I don't think a few are stupid and arbitrary), but the topic of streetcars using race equiptment is a different ball game.

As for street outlaws, ever see any of them get into those cars without a helmet and firesuit?
Haha, Matt the master-debater!

I respectfully disagree, If a minivan HAD a roll cage the survivability (Is that a word?) would be better than not having one period. I didn't say you'll have a 100% percent chance of survival, but I do believe you have a better chance with one. This is from experience in many car accidents that I have witnessed and work on for 7 years. I don't have scientific data or a study to publish, this is experience on the job. Other firefighters might agree or disagree with me, but that's how I feel. You're talking about high and low speed accidents. What is a rollcage? A constructed frame to protect its occupants particularly in the event of a "Roll Over." Sure this is helps to stiffen the chassis, but it's main purpose is to help in a roll over. I know we are comparing apples and oranges. Track and street cars. My point is more about roll over accidents where the roof caves in over the occupants. Yes your normal street car is not required to have a roll cage but I'm simply stating if it HAD one.

And a 3 point harness, or we can just call it a seat belt is surprising safer than not wearing one at all.

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post #219 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 11:42 AM
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Thanks guys, it's all good, I'm always up for a friendly debate now and then. You should see the Facebook group, lots more. You guys should visit and join the group, lots of activity, tho you don't have any moderator powers to ban newbs, lol. Rod and Vic are doing a good job keeping sales posts off.



Haha, Matt the master-debater!

I respectfully disagree, If a minivan HAD a roll cage the survivability (Is that a word?) would be better than not having one period. I didn't say you'll have a 100% percent chance of survival, but I do believe you have a better chance with one. This is from experience in many car accidents that I have witnessed and work on for 7 years. I don't have scientific data or a study to publish, this is experience on the job. Other firefighters might agree or disagree with me, but that's how I feel. You're talking about high and low speed accidents. What is a rollcage? A constructed frame to protect its occupants particularly in the event of a "Roll Over." Sure this is helps to stiffen the chassis, but it's main purpose is to help in a roll over. I know we are comparing apples and oranges. Track and street cars. My point is more about roll over accidents where the roof caves in over the occupants. Yes your normal street car is not required to have a roll cage but I'm simply stating if it HAD one.

And a 3 point harness, or we can just call it a seat belt is surprising safer than not wearing one at all.
The issue is, that modern cars are designed to crumple to absorb energy. In a purpose built race car, the cage adds much needed rigidity and the driver has a collection of harnesses, a helmet, neck brace, etc to absorb and limit energy transfer to his body to help minimize damage. In your garden variety minivan, adding rigidity will cause the energy that is supposed to be absorbed by the crumple zones, gets transferred into the cage, which maintains more strength, causing all that energy to then transfer into the occupants.

I'm not saying cages aren't safe, I'm not saying in limited circumstances they'd help in some kinds of accidents, but cars are safer now because they absorb all that crash energy, instead of just toughing it out for the meatbags strapped to the seat to absorb it.

Once you go purpose built, the rules and the safety methods change.

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post #220 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 12:05 PM
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Umm when did I say wearing a seatbelt wasn't safe? My point is that three points only prevent a certain direction of movement (forward)effectively - typical drive into something crashes - but in a rollover, or a T-boning for that matter, the belts don't do near as good of a job preventing vertical and horizontal movement, or even ejection. My point was you don't build a roll cage and use standard seatbelts if your goal is survival. Roll cages, racing harnesses and helmets go together like pistons, rods and cranks. They work in tandem or they don't work at all.

Also, a roll bar and roll cage aren't the same. A roll bar, yes, means if the car rolls over onto the roof the roof won't crush into the driver or front seat passenger's head, if you look at mild rollover accidents from cars with roll bars, yep, you can indeed see the roof collapsed around the main hoop, protecting the driver's head immediately below. You see these in street/strip cars often(due to track rules) but you don't see them in professional racing much anymore, because they're basically useless if the roll is more of a tumble, which they often are, literally shredding the car to pieces as I know you've seen. A roll cage is very much a different animal, the more accurate word for it is safety cage, these resist cabin intrusion period and are bred purely in a race environment. I recommend you look for in car footage of the drivers during many of the rally crashes on YouTube and watch the driver/navigator's helmets in relation to the main hoop, or better yet look at their helmet damage after the crash. Now imagine those same crashes without helmets and then imagine them with 3-point seatbelts instead of 5-point harnesses. It won't be pretty.


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post #221 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 12:44 PM
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- but in a rollover, or a T-boning for that matter, the belts don't do near as good of a job preventing vertical and horizontal movement...
I can attest to that, when that Silverado T-boned my Tempo by all accounts I was thrown around like a rag doll in there. In my case a helmet may have helped but a cage would have done nothing, for my injuries.

Not taking sides but just some personal perspective.
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post #222 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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The issue is, that modern cars are designed to crumple to absorb energy. In a purpose built race car, the cage adds much needed rigidity and the driver has a collection of harnesses, a helmet, neck brace, etc to absorb and limit energy transfer to his body to help minimize damage. In your garden variety minivan, adding rigidity will cause the energy that is supposed to be absorbed by the crumple zones, gets transferred into the cage, which maintains more strength, causing all that energy to then transfer into the occupants.

I'm not saying cages aren't safe, I'm not saying in limited circumstances they'd help in some kinds of accidents, but cars are safer now because they absorb all that crash energy, instead of just toughing it out for the meatbags strapped to the seat to absorb it.

Once you go purpose built, the rules and the safety methods change.
Sure but there isn't much for energy to absorb on the roof in the event of a roll over. Alot of older cars, trucks and SUVs have a poor safety rating on roof strength test. I believe a lot of manufacturers are now making the top of the vehicle safer from what I remember. So if a car had a roll cage, there would be more protection to keep the occupants safe from being crushed. I get what you guys are saying, that racing safety equipment work together. They would be tossed around like a rag doll with a seat belt on. I get it-I got it. But like I said, I believe that the chance for survival would be better.

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Umm when did I say wearing a seatbelt wasn't safe? My point is that three points only prevent a certain direction of movement (forward)effectively - typical drive into something crashes - but in a rollover, or a T-boning for that matter, the belts don't do near as good of a job preventing vertical and horizontal movement, or even ejection. My point was you don't build a roll cage and use standard seatbelts if your goal is survival. Roll cages, racing harnesses and helmets go together like pistons, rods and cranks. They work in tandem or they don't work at all.

Also, a roll bar and roll cage aren't the same. A roll bar, yes, means if the car rolls over onto the roof the roof won't crush into the driver or front seat passenger's head, if you look at mild rollover accidents from cars with roll bars, yep, you can indeed see the roof collapsed around the main hoop, protecting the driver's head immediately below. You see these in street/strip cars often(due to track rules) but you don't see them in professional racing much anymore, because they're basically useless if the roll is more of a tumble, which they often are, literally shredding the car to pieces as I know you've seen. A roll cage is very much a different animal, the more accurate word for it is safety cage, these resist cabin intrusion period and are bred purely in a race environment. I recommend you look for in car footage of the drivers during many of the rally crashes on YouTube and watch the driver/navigator's helmets in relation to the main hoop, or better yet look at their helmet damage after the crash. Now imagine those same crashes without helmets and then imagine them with 3-point seatbelts instead of 5-point harnesses. It won't be pretty.

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Umm when did I say you said wearing a seatbelt wasn't safe? Haha. Are you talking about my one liner there at the end? That was my safety tip of the day.

Yea you're right a roll bar and roll cage are different, not the same. I agree. In my original post I said roll cage. A true roll cage would reinforce the A and B post and in a minivan the C and D posts too giving you more protection from being crushed. I get what you're saying racing safety equipment work together, but I believe you have a better chance of survival if you didn't have one.

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I can attest to that, when that Silverado T-boned my Tempo by all accounts I was thrown around like a rag doll in there. In my case a helmet may have helped but a cage would have done nothing, for my injuries.

Not taking sides but just some personal perspective.
Yea like I was telling Matt and Woodman, in a roll over accident with the roof being supported by a roll cage. Glad you're ok.
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post #223 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-22-2017, 03:24 PM
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I just didn't want it taken that me saying 3-point belts weren't effective with cages as 3-point belts aren't effective. I totally agree, but the PSA is unnecessary, at least with me as I've never not worn a seatbelt in a car

So could the caged minivan could improve the survival chances? Sure, I will absolutely concede that there's always a wildcard scenario. However, cages/bars are by nature are hard intrusive objects inside the passenger compartment, so in that one scenario, yes, maybe it could have helped, but since it's hypothetical it then can be speculated that in a minor fender bender scenario the cage could cause worse bodily harm than without. That's the crux of the argument. You can't make a car absolutely safe, so you prepare them for the most statistically likely scenarios.


The improvements in roof structure that have happened on a production level are very true, and in basic principal they can operate the same way safety cages do - minimizing cabin intrusion. But rollover safety isn't the only reason, offset crashes at higher speeds(40mph from 35mph)especially the small overlap one used since 2012, have showed using just one side of the crumple zone really puts the passenger compartment structure through the wringer. Fortified pillars and roof rails are direct result of passing that, and extra rollover protection is a happy byproduct. Course newer cars have awful visibility because of this but that's another argument... It should also be noted that while there is minimal energy absorption, airbags are meant to help with that as well, side curtains in particular are effective in the case of rollover, preventing exactly what I'm harping on.


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post #224 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-23-2017, 12:22 PM
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FYI, Roll bar (6 Point) required for 10:00 to 11:50 et's.

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post #225 of 237 (permalink) Old 01-23-2017, 07:01 PM
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Glad you're ok.
Well that's up for debate depending on who you ask

There are permanent injuries just no physical ones.
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post #226 of 237 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 06:35 AM
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I've mostly just been lurking and watching this thread. It's worth noting that there was a story posted on here about a young man in Texas that had a really fast T-Bird that he wrecked and died in at the strip. I'm thinking that if you're putting the time and effort into this car to make it that fast then I think your life and the impact on your young family if you lost it would be enough to have you reconsider about putting the appropriate safety equipment in place.
Yes, that is all true, but it depends on how fast he was going, how he crashed, and what kind of injuries he sustained. No matter how much safety stuff you have on/in a car, there will always be a level of risk. How you mitigate risk is solely up to you, but the only way to have no risk, is to never leave your house, and never do anything in your life, and even that still has risks. I would bet he had safety equipment. That being said, putting a cage in the mn12s most likely effectively removes the usefulness of the back seats. I am sure there can be a way to keep them usable, but you have to weigh your risk vs use, vs your own cars speed. So I get why that 10 sec SRT didn't have a cage. Using the specific example of an LX chassis, other then actually landing on the roof of the car, not much safety is added to a 300 by adding a cage.

Another note, I have seen some super slick cage installs, where you cant even tell there is a cage in the car, because it tucks so closely into the interior lines of the car, an install like that would be expensive. The kind of expense I wouldn't put into a car, so my cage in my Bird would take my back seats out. Im nowhere near fast enough to concern myself with this yet.

p.s. the kid who died in Dallas, was hit by the mustang in the opposite lane, then the 2 cars crashed into a tree, he was thrown from his car, and I believe the cars were engulfed in fire. A Cage is not saving anyone from not wearing there seat belt (I assume since he was ejected from the vehicle) or fire.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/acci...rie-drag-strip

p.p.s I didn't read your guys debate and hypotheticals yet. I will at some point.

I can say one thing that covers all things. Sometimes some things will make you safer, other times those same things could put you in more dangerous.

I love generalizations. I love when news and hypothetically smart folks talk in them.

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Last edited by Rodeo Joe; 04-29-2017 at 07:48 AM. Reason: Merged posts
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post #227 of 237 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyICU View Post
Yes, that is all true, .....
I'm only responding to this because the entire context of the conversation is spread out over a long period of time and the original thought behind some of the posts is getting lost.

I would only say that my point was that if you're building a fast car (i.e. 10's) for the drag strip then putting in a cage and five point harness are not big expenses when your life is in the balance. The driver in the aforementioned accident was ejected from the car. If he had been secured within a cage and had a five point harness then his survival odds would have risen dramatically. I didn't suggest that anyone was irresponsible nor that none of this is worth the risk.

On an additional side note, we can only go on the information that we are given or that we have seen. If you're suggesting that we shouldn't have opinions on that then it feels a lot like your comment about never leaving the house. What I'm reading is that you believe that we should only comment on something when we have all of the facts first hand. If that is the case then most forums and public discourse may as well be shut down now because we rarely have all of the facts. We'll do that at the same time as we close down all of the race tracks, take all of the guns, close all of the swimming pools, etc. so that no one can take any risk, have any conversations or do anything that might upset the delicate balance of the universe.

.....or, we could just let people have their opinions and move on.
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post #228 of 237 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 03:41 PM
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The issue with slick cage installs is that they may not be NHRA legal, certain bars need to be in certain places in relation to the driver and other bars just will be in the way no matter what. The guidelines are set up with the specific intent that you're wearing a harness, helmet and fire suit, and the sum of all the equipment will work together to save your life. Skimp on any of this for a clean install and you won't pass tech and you'll sunk a bunch on money into a fancy cage.

-Matt
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post #229 of 237 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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This thread needs a Coyote update

Where to start?

Interior:

I purchased a 6 point roll cage during the winter, it will have removable side bars. Having it professionally installed and welded in by fabricator that works on drag cars. Going back to the stock shifter (See transmission update below). I removed and sold the aftermarket black carpet I’ve had for 10 years. I’m replacing it with stock carpet from my 97 Tbird parts car. Going to have it cleaned and dyed black. Replacing the stock seats, yet again with a pair of Sportline RRS Corbeau Racings seats with 5 point harness. This time I won’t be using their brackets. I have a pair of MN12 manual seat brackets that I will modify to work.

Suspension and Chassis:

Just installed rear aluminum subframe bushings, beefy rear diff mount and LWP cover. Waiting on new QA1 coil over shocks front and rear. Dropped the AJE K-member one inch because the Supercharger was slightly touching the hood. This will also help with the transmission clearance as well.

Wheels:

Over the winter I had my front wheels narrowed 1.5” to help with the rubbing issue with the strut bar.

Fuel system:

I recently bought an Aeromotive 15 gallon fuel cell, new PFTE lines, fittings, fuel filter and fuel rails

Engine / Trans management:

So I ditched the FRPP Coyote control kit for Power by the hour’s engine/trans control kit for the Coyote 5.0 and the 6R80 auto. This works all together on the same computer instead of using two standalone units to control each. The transmission will also have a sport mode to shift through all the gears manually with a touch of a button.

Transmission:

Picked up a 6R80 from a 2014 F150 with just over 5K miles. With a one inch drop from the K-member I hope this will fit in the trans tunnel. I will be able to use the MN12 stock shifter and cable with a 4R70W lever adapter. I’m hoping with a custom 6R80 mount, it will work with the MN12 cross trans brace.

Anyways just waiting on parts. Between family, work, house projects and everything else I might do a 3rd shift again to finish this for summer.


























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Last edited by OxmanWI; 04-30-2017 at 11:05 PM.
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post #230 of 237 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 10:27 PM
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Wow, I can't wait to see the 6R80 swap come to fruition, if I wasn't so eager to have 3 pedals that would have been a project I'd have pursued, even with the boring old 2V under the hood. Far far better trans than the dump truck 4R70w.


I'm eager to see how the carpet turns out, I've heard RIT works if you immerse it in a drum for a few days, I've just been too chicken to try it. I have a 90-93 carpet in mine now and the fit is terrible, and I don't really like the tighter looking fabric of the Mark VIII carpet, and aftermarket, well you got rid of yours, so that says it all as far as their quality is concerned

-Matt
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post #231 of 237 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 10:27 PM
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You have some fine looking equipment on your setting up Josh. Thanks for sharing. I enjoy your attention to detail on the valve covers and double ditto on the 6R80 trans choice, that will launch her well off the line. Could you add smiles on the butterflies of your SC?
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post #232 of 237 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 05:44 AM
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Good Lord Josh you've been busy. That is Ford porn indeed!

I'd love to switch away from the crappy 4R70W to a modern transmission. You're going to need a different length driveshaft. What are your plans for that?

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post #233 of 237 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 11:31 AM
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You are making lots of us jelly. I'm curious though. How many half shafts have you snapped?

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Could you add smiles on the butterflies of your SC?
If you feel that the butterflies of the TB are smiles, they're not. You're just experiencing Pareidolia. It's just the two screws holding the butterflies to the rotation assembly of the TB and the bottom edge of the butterflies are making the slightest shadow giving it a "smiley" face effect.

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post #234 of 237 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
You are making lots of us jelly. I'm curious though. How many half shafts have you snapped?



If you feel that the butterflies of the TB are smiles, they're not. You're just experiencing Pareidolia. It's just the two screws holding the butterflies to the rotation assembly of the TB and the bottom edge of the butterflies are making the slightest shadow giving it a "smiley" face effect.
We realized that, we just want to see something done to the throttle blades to make it an actual smiley. lol. Even though it'll never be seen.
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post #235 of 237 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 10:09 AM
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does anyone make a plug and play wire Harness for the coyote thunderbird install
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post #236 of 237 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 10:41 AM
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does anyone make a plug and play wire Harness for the coyote thunderbird install
Hahahahahahahahahaha!

Considering the coyote swap has been done exactly twice into an MN12/FN10, nobody is going to spend the time to make a plug and play harness for us. Get the FRPP coyote swap harness, and wire it up as needed.

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post #237 of 237 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 12:15 PM
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That and there's more than one way to skin a cat, Josh's swap isn't necessarily done the same way as the guy with the Mark VIII(not really familiar with the specifics of that one like this) and I'd probably do it my own way, and somebody else would do it theirs.

But hey, hot rodding isn't about plug and play.

-Matt
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