MN12 Spring Rates - Front and Rear - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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MN12 Spring Rates - Front and Rear

Anybody have any ideas what would be a good spring rte for the front end. The Eibach pro-kit is not stiff enough for what I want. would 650 in/lb be enough, or...?

Also, semi-related, what's the stiffest rear spring available? Cobra convertible or...?

"WHAT CONE?!?!

1997 T-Bird Sport, 'Interceptor' (12 ESP 2008-2012)- CAI, 2.25 duals, Flowmaster 40 series, Clear corners, BBK 70mm Throttle Body, TrickFlow upper intake, PI Intake, BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator, LE stripes, Bullitt-style gauge faces. 18x9 wheels, Sniper tuned, 3,620 pounds


1991 Ford F250 - Air restrictor delete. Cat delete.

1991 T-Bird 'Interceptor II' (12 CP 2013-) - Race-prep, Full custom "interior", Carb'd 302, Trick Flow twisted wedge heads, stage 1 cam, Custom Koni coil-overs front, Koni yellows rear, Cobra front brakes, fuel cell, 18X9 wheels, 275/30 Hoosier A6, 4.11 T-Lok. 3000 pounds

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 10:43 AM
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Vogtland. I run them and highly recommend them.

Review Here:

http://www.yellowmustangregistry.com/vogtland.html

See this thread some good information about the springs and my install.

rear springs

QA1 also makes a set of coil over springs that are top of the line but very pricey. _95badbird had a set of them he could tell you more about those springs.

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 11:07 AM Thread Starter
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Any idea how stiff the rear Vogtlands are compared to the Eibach?

I really wish I could find the rate of the Eibach kit, at least have a starting point

"WHAT CONE?!?!

1997 T-Bird Sport, 'Interceptor' (12 ESP 2008-2012)- CAI, 2.25 duals, Flowmaster 40 series, Clear corners, BBK 70mm Throttle Body, TrickFlow upper intake, PI Intake, BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator, LE stripes, Bullitt-style gauge faces. 18x9 wheels, Sniper tuned, 3,620 pounds


1991 Ford F250 - Air restrictor delete. Cat delete.

1991 T-Bird 'Interceptor II' (12 CP 2013-) - Race-prep, Full custom "interior", Carb'd 302, Trick Flow twisted wedge heads, stage 1 cam, Custom Koni coil-overs front, Koni yellows rear, Cobra front brakes, fuel cell, 18X9 wheels, 275/30 Hoosier A6, 4.11 T-Lok. 3000 pounds

2004 Toyota Solara SE - V6, Sport package, Muffler delete, 17X7 wheels, 235/50 Conti ExtremeContact DWS
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 11:07 AM
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Found it!

See the spring rates in the technical articles at this link:

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/mn12-t...gs/springs.htm

I also found this information on spring rates over at SCCOA. In this thread. Post #8.

Also see this thread here:

http://forums.tccoa.com/44-suspension/127050-eibach-vs-vogtland-need-opinions.html#post1280536

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokasz View Post
For background info, I have three Thunderbirds:

A rustbucket 96 (PI heads) with sport springs and tokico blues a stock front sway bar and 1-1/8" addco rear bar.

A new to me 96 sport with a stock suspension.

A Vortech supercharged PI motored 97 with Eibachs, Tokicos and 1-1/4" Addco bars front and rear.

I have a set of 1" drop Vogtlands Springs I had purchased for the rustbucket when I broke a spring but I didn't use them because I found a replacement spring. I also have a new set of tokico blues for the 96 sport and a 1-1/8" Addco rear bar.

My plan was to use the 1" drop Vogtland springs on the 96 Sport but I have never really thought the Eibachs were great on the 97. They always felt kind of soft so I thought about putting the Vogtlands on the 97 but I like that car lower for the looks and handling increase. So I had the thought of buying 1.6" drop Vogtlands for the 97 and selling the Eibachs. Has anyone every directly compared these springs? Would this be worth time and money? Is there a better choice for 1.5" drop springs? Does anybody know the spring rate of the 1.6" drop Vogtlands. I created a chart below for the spring rates for all the springs I could find. I guessed at a 7.5% increase in rate of the 1.6" Vogtlands over the 1" drop spring.

I have the 1.6" Vogtlands on my car and am very happy with them.

I found this information on spring rates over at SCCOA. In this thread. Post #8.

These numbers vary from slightly to dramatically from what you have in your table for the Vogtland springs.
I'd trust these numbers since they're directly from Vogtland; and I'm certain that these numbers will be the same for all MN12's regardless if they're V6 SC, LX V6 or LX V8's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFox at SCCOA

September 27, 2008

Getting information on these springs is like pulling teeth...

I read a review on a Mustang install and spoke to a vendor and all comments were very positive. This is a quality product!

Spoke to an SC vendor but he didn't know spring rate, so I e-mailed Vogtland and will post info. when I get it. So I posted my questions on the technical forum.

You can read the replies @: http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102772

1" Vogtland: 315-412 front / 530-650 rear

1.6" Vogtland: 365-400 front / 600-713 rear

1.5" Eibachs: 286-411 front / 514-714 rear

1.5" Suspension Techniques: 432/631 Linear

From the measurements from those who have Vogtland, the drop on the 1" springs is right around 1" (maybe just under) and the 1.6 give the exact same drop as the Eibachs.

So what does this all mean?

The initial rates on both Vogtland springs is higher than the Eibachs. In my books, this is a good thing as I find the Eibachs a little mushy on smooth surfaces and because of that, the rate quickly climbs on sharp bumps. So IMO, based on these numbers and without having tested a car with Vogtland springs, both Vogtland springs should provide a better ride on rough surfaces. The 1" Vogtland should provide a ride quality very similar to stock while giving you the handling benefits of the drop.

Other factors to keep in mind:
  • Good springs are only 1 part of the equation. Condition and quality of your shocks will also play a big role in ride quality and handling.
  • Polyurethane spring isolators and sway bar bushings will give you better road feel and a tighter steering feel but will transmit some of the irregularities from the road. The density of the poly also varies, so not all are created equal.
  • Larger sway bars will work similar to increasing spring rates without giving you such a harsh ride.

The rule that I like is "as soft as possible and as stiff as necessary". It really depends what your expectations are and what you want to do with the car.

There appears to be allot of interest for these springs. Maybe we should set-up a group buy for our club. What is the procedure?

Hope this helps.

Denis
Here's an additonal review/comparision of the Eibachs vs Vogtland that I found very helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFox at SCCOA

December 20, 2009

A few people had asked me about these springs and to comment on the ride.

I got them installed late September and I'm very happy that they performed exactly as expected. Refer to my comparison on page 1 of this thread. They sit exactly 1/2" higher than the Eibachs (which may not seem like much) but the effect on ride quality is significant. As I pointed out earlier, maybe most of the improvement may come from the higher initial spring rate compared to the Eibachs. This provides a much smoother transition when hitting a harsh bump. That low initial rate may also have been responsible for a high speed oscillation on the highway, which is now completely gone. The car doesn't have a slammed look and appears very natural with 17" wheels and low profile 35 and 40 series tires. Obviously when it comes to looks this is entirely a personal thing. I'm running Koni adjustable shocks on all four corners and this is a great combination.

I met a guy at Mosport who was running the 1.6" version on a V8 T-Bird and he was very pleased with them.

These springs may not be that well known in North America but they are a high quality German product.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthre...=102742&page=2

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 02-20-2013 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Add spring chart photo
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 11:16 AM Thread Starter
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Dude, you're awesome! Now for some analyzing and planning. Exactly what I needed

"WHAT CONE?!?!

1997 T-Bird Sport, 'Interceptor' (12 ESP 2008-2012)- CAI, 2.25 duals, Flowmaster 40 series, Clear corners, BBK 70mm Throttle Body, TrickFlow upper intake, PI Intake, BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator, LE stripes, Bullitt-style gauge faces. 18x9 wheels, Sniper tuned, 3,620 pounds


1991 Ford F250 - Air restrictor delete. Cat delete.

1991 T-Bird 'Interceptor II' (12 CP 2013-) - Race-prep, Full custom "interior", Carb'd 302, Trick Flow twisted wedge heads, stage 1 cam, Custom Koni coil-overs front, Koni yellows rear, Cobra front brakes, fuel cell, 18X9 wheels, 275/30 Hoosier A6, 4.11 T-Lok. 3000 pounds

2004 Toyota Solara SE - V6, Sport package, Muffler delete, 17X7 wheels, 235/50 Conti ExtremeContact DWS
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 11:41 AM
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Tm, wouldnt v6 and v8 springs be slightly different cause of weight?

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 01:41 PM
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Personally I think progressive springs and giant bars suck for all out handling if that's the goal, ST looks the most ideal short of grafting on aftermarket coilovers. FWIW the tbirds used at Bondurant back in the day used 550lb in springs with a 1.25" sway bar in front, and 700lb in springs with a 1" bar in the rear.

-Matt
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I just happen to be going to an aftermarket-style coilover setup. I'm looking at either 650 or 600 lb springs for the front. I havn't figured out quite what to do in the rear, but I'll probably start with the Eibachs that are on it, and see how those do. Summit has their coilover springs for $35.something a pair, so I can afford to do a little testing and not break the bank.

"WHAT CONE?!?!

1997 T-Bird Sport, 'Interceptor' (12 ESP 2008-2012)- CAI, 2.25 duals, Flowmaster 40 series, Clear corners, BBK 70mm Throttle Body, TrickFlow upper intake, PI Intake, BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator, LE stripes, Bullitt-style gauge faces. 18x9 wheels, Sniper tuned, 3,620 pounds


1991 Ford F250 - Air restrictor delete. Cat delete.

1991 T-Bird 'Interceptor II' (12 CP 2013-) - Race-prep, Full custom "interior", Carb'd 302, Trick Flow twisted wedge heads, stage 1 cam, Custom Koni coil-overs front, Koni yellows rear, Cobra front brakes, fuel cell, 18X9 wheels, 275/30 Hoosier A6, 4.11 T-Lok. 3000 pounds

2004 Toyota Solara SE - V6, Sport package, Muffler delete, 17X7 wheels, 235/50 Conti ExtremeContact DWS
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrunnner View Post
TM, wouldn't v6 and v8 springs be slightly different cause of weight?
There might be a difference in the stock springs between the V6 and V8 cars - however, I doubt that.

Yes, there is a difference between the stock V8 and Sport package springs as identified on the chart.

There is no difference in the after market springs between V6 and V8 cars for MN12's. The after market springs are one size fits all.

Read throught the information given and follow the links. The answer is there.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 02-02-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 03:33 PM
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Added picture.

I remember back when a lot of the old timers were running V6 springs on the front for the weight transfer at the track.

The springs I pulled off mine are tagged FOSC-5310-CA and the color of the tag is yellow.

I used a picture that Swanny posted of his springs and the tag color looks white.



There's a thread somewhere I'll have to dig up that someone posted the tag numbers on their V8 springs.

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/mn12-t...gs/springs.htm

Joe

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 07:17 PM
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Here you go:

Can new supercoupe springs be bought anymore?

from this thread, which is pretty good:

Can new supercoupe springs be bought anymore?

This info should be in a sticky...

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 07:53 PM
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So heavy??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelsey Smith View Post
Anybody have any ideas what would be a good spring rte for the front end. The Eibach pro-kit is not stiff enough for what I want. would 650 in/lb be enough, or...?

Also, semi-related, what's the stiffest rear spring available? Cobra convertible or...?
Hello

Why do you need a spring that heavy?
I don't even run springs that heavy. I run oval track.


Paul Nm12tbirdracer@aol.com
1990 Thunderbird Circle Track Street Stock
351W 2bbl.
C-4 Auto
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2011, 10:08 PM
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For road racing and autox the heavier the better
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-03-2011, 09:30 AM
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500-600

Hello

I get a push with a spring some where between 500<->600
(85 fox springs, almost one ring broken off)
Going to try the Fox rear springs this season.
I run a big front bar & small rear bar.

when do you run your first race?
I am in western NY


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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-04-2011, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Myself or XR7?

"WHAT CONE?!?!

1997 T-Bird Sport, 'Interceptor' (12 ESP 2008-2012)- CAI, 2.25 duals, Flowmaster 40 series, Clear corners, BBK 70mm Throttle Body, TrickFlow upper intake, PI Intake, BBK adjustable fuel pressure regulator, LE stripes, Bullitt-style gauge faces. 18x9 wheels, Sniper tuned, 3,620 pounds


1991 Ford F250 - Air restrictor delete. Cat delete.

1991 T-Bird 'Interceptor II' (12 CP 2013-) - Race-prep, Full custom "interior", Carb'd 302, Trick Flow twisted wedge heads, stage 1 cam, Custom Koni coil-overs front, Koni yellows rear, Cobra front brakes, fuel cell, 18X9 wheels, 275/30 Hoosier A6, 4.11 T-Lok. 3000 pounds

2004 Toyota Solara SE - V6, Sport package, Muffler delete, 17X7 wheels, 235/50 Conti ExtremeContact DWS
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-02-2011, 06:48 PM
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I'm going to copy this post here so that all the info is in one place:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
Here's my experience with the Vogtlands for comparison. See THIS THREAD.

I have the Vogtland 1.6 drop springs and measurements of them that you may wish to compare to yours. I don't think you're going to see a 1.5" drop from springs that are only 2" shorter. The Vogtlands got me a 1.5" to 1.6" drop and they're 2 1/2" shorter than stock.

Like everyone else has said they may take some time to settle in.

The Unsprung height of the stock (non-sport) rear spring is 13 3/4"
The Unsprung height of the 1.6" drop Vogtland rear spring is 11 1/4"
A difference of 2 1/2"

The diameter of the stock (non-sport) rear coil is .670"
The diameter of the Vogtland rear coil is .720"
A difference of .050" or just under 1/16" heavier.


Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-04-2014, 06:15 PM
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Good place to keep it .... Thanks.

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