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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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For the Millionth Time....

As I get ready to buy shocks for my T-Bird, can someone describe to me, or tell me, what a good comparison between the Tokico HP Blues vs Bilstein Sport Shocks on the rear would feel like? I have absolutely no reference point. My reference point is literally the barrel rolling slop I have in my Bird, The heavy moose of my '13 Taurus SEL, the semi-nimbleness of my lowered '00 Accord, and the monster of a ride I call "Bertha" which is '12 E-150 work van.

I've read countless descriptions of the Tokico Blues vs Bilstein Sports here on the forums, but reading about something and experiencing something, as we all know, is completely different.

I'd like to know if there are any other cars, rides, or something or other that I can get in that will give me a similar feel as to what I'm to expect if I were to go with Bilstein rears vs Tokico rears.
Like I said, reading about something and experiencing something, is completely different.

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:36 AM
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Bilstein rears vs Tokico rears .......... My experience the steins are very harsh compared to the blues . On the rear of this bird .

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:39 AM
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Bilstiens are stiffer but I never noticed much of a difference between the two in the back, Tokicos are better bang for the buck there IMO and do the job shocks are intended to do perfectly(hint: if you install a shock and all you notice is how stiff it is, that shock is stiffer than ideal) Bear in mind the trend for doing Bilstiens in the rear came about when Sport front shocks were still available, but the rears obsolete, so the Bilstien vert rears substituted to became a well matched set to order together from FordPartsCounter or other Ford parts vendors on the forum back in the day.

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 12:31 PM
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I have them both installed on each of my cars (Bilstein on the cat, Blues on the Bird). A direct comparison is as stated above, the Bilsteins are noticeably stiffer. I drive my bird hard into corners and I like the way it handles better than the Cat, which is obviously more than just shocks making the difference.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Bilstiens are stiffer but I never noticed much of a difference between the two in the back, Tokicos are better bang for the buck there IMO and do the job shocks are intended to do perfectly(hint: if you install a shock and all you notice is how stiff it is, that shock is stiffer than ideal) Bear in mind the trend for doing Bilstiens in the rear came about when Sport front shocks were still available, but the rears obsolete, so the Bilstien vert rears substituted to became a well matched set to order together from FordPartsCounter or other Ford parts vendors on the forum back in the day.
Well, I've been reading the Bilstien's sticky here in the suspension forum and because of it, I've come across some places other than Amazon and Summit that sell shocks, namely ShockWarehouse. On there, the Tokico Blues and Bilstein Sport are just $9 apart from each other. It's also the cheapest place I've found the Bilstein sport shocks as I see them most everywhere else ranging from $123 - $165. Anyone here, myself included, would say that getting the Bilstiens is a definite no brainer at this point because of the $9 (ea.) price difference instead of the $25 - $65 (ea.) seen anywhere else. But then again, like I said in my OP, it would come down to ride quality at that point. That's where my OP also comes into play of me not having a reference point as to what either setup feels like and asking what I can get into (car, simulator, go-kart, etc.) that would best simulate both Tokico Blues + Bilstien AND an all Tokico Blues MN12.

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Originally Posted by jco1385 View Post
I have them both installed on each of my cars (Bilstein on the cat, Blues on the Bird). A direct comparison is as stated above, the Bilsteins are noticeably stiffer. I drive my bird hard into corners and I like the way it handles better than the Cat, which is obviously more than just shocks making the difference.
What you're saying is that you prefer the all Tokico setup of your Bird rather than the Tokico + Bilstien of your Cat? Which one of the two has the upgraded suspension components (besides the shocks, obviously) that we've talked about before, your Bird? If my understanding of this is right, have you ever put your Bilstiens on your Bird to see how different the feel and handling would be over the Tokico Blues?

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 06:25 PM
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If you want your car to be nice and stiff, and lower, go with the tokicos.

I bought a package with the 1.5" drop progressive springs, and they rock on the Tbird.

If you want to RACECAR, do the Bilsteins.

The car with the Konis and sport springs, Lazarus, is too stiff, really. But it's insanely fun to drive.

Especially with the Mark rear LCAs, and all poly bushings.

I added the poly mark stuff with the rear sport springs, so I'm losing the springs first; stock V8 springs felt much better.

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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 08:00 PM
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Check out my thread as well, 'Best Suspension Package' I got my Bilstein B8's for 91.99 or 184.00 shipped from AJ-USA. My Tokico for the front cost 171 shipped for UltraRev.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 08:36 PM
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Are you guys buying generic Bilstiens meant for a Cobra Mustang or the specific ones containing a Ford part number? Here's the thing, which goes to elaborate on what I mentioned this morning, the Bilstiens to seek out are Cobra Convertible shocks, NOT coupe. Cobra convertibles spring rates are much closer to the MN12 sport and aftermarket lowering spring rates. With coupe shocks you end up overshocking the car, and it's really not good for them or the chassis when it takes more resistance to compress them than the springs themselves. They should be matched.

-Matt
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 12:07 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
If you want your car to be nice and stiff, and lower, go with the tokicos.

I bought a package with the 1.5" drop progressive springs, and they rock on the Tbird.

If you want to RACECAR, do the Bilsteins.

The car with the Konis and sport springs, Lazarus, is too stiff, really. But it's insanely fun to drive.

Especially with the Mark rear LCAs, and all poly bushings.

I added the poly mark stuff with the rear sport springs, so I'm losing the springs first; stock V8 springs felt much better.
I want to DD with the occasional "this one time in Mexico" RACECAR stories and RACECAR at the Auto-X track. That's what I want

I already have the 1.6" Vogtlands, the MK8 rear LCAs, the Poly knuckle bushings, the Poly LCA bushings, etc. I'm going all out on replacing suspension parts, man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikutoisahobo View Post
Check out my thread as well, 'Best Suspension Package' I got my Bilstein B8's for 91.99 or 184.00 shipped from AJ-USA. My Tokico for the front cost 171 shipped for UltraRev.
Reading your thread is what made me decide to ask this question. Even in this thread, I'm seeing the reply of "stiff", "squishy", "better", "harsh", etc. However, none of these descriptions do not answer my question in my OP of, "What can I get in to, or ride, that will give me an idea of how each setup combination will ride?" The other thing I stated in my OP is that I have no baseline of what either the Tokicos or Tokicos + Bilstien combo will feel / ride like. If there is nothing for me to ride in to give me an idea, then, that's fine. At that point, I can only make a final decision of what to buy based off of descriptions I've already read here and in other threads. And if that were the case, I'd make my decision simply off of @Grog6 's question of, "If you want to RACECAR, do the Bilsteins"

Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Are you guys buying generic Bilstiens meant for a Cobra Mustang or the specific ones containing a Ford part number? Here's the thing, which goes to elaborate on what I mentioned this morning, the Bilstiens to seek out are Cobra Convertible shocks, NOT coupe. Cobra convertibles spring rates are much closer to the MN12 sport and aftermarket lowering spring rates. With coupe shocks you end up overshocking the car, and it's really not good for them or the chassis when it takes more resistance to compress them than the springs themselves. They should be matched.
The PN I'm using is from the sticky Bilstien thread. One post in particular by southbound, Post #70, says that the Bilstien PN listed in the OP of the Bilstien sticky thread has changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound View Post
There has been a part number change..

Part Number: 24-185974
Old Part Number: F4-BE5-C265-H0
Bilstein's own page even confirms that PN change.

Upon finding this particular post, I looked up F4-BE5-C265-H0 and I didn't find anything available except for on ShockWarehouse. I looked up 24-185974 and Bilstiens availability came up everywhere. Granted, I was at work and was multi-tasking between work and shock research, lol. Now that I'm home and taking proper research time for this, I'm finding the F4BE5-C265-H0 shock everywhere, lol.

So now a separate question I have is, are both PNs really for the same product, or are the products different? If they're different products, what would be the differences between the two?

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 01:53 AM
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I ordered these rear bilsteins. If you insist on that amount of dampening, these are the stiffest you are going to find.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/BSN-24-185974

They are from the Bilstein B8 series of shocks which to my knowledge are not OE on any car.
Understanding BILSTEIN's Product Line

For the fronts, if you want the stiffest front suspension possible, fit the Bilstein inserts which will require machine shop work. It's really not that hard. Now, there might be some B8 SP (to match the same family as the rears) Bilstein inserts with a 36mm monotube (go any wider and they won't fit in the stock shock body) and the proper OAL length but you will need to do your own R&D to figure it out. Of course, if you want to just throw money at the problem, you could always have Bilstein revalve the B6 HD inserts to be stiffer (or refilled with heavier weight oil).

S4Gunn's Tbird Front Suspension Options Summary & Bilstein Insert DIY

PS. the only real way to quantify dampening is to buy all of these (Tokicos, bilstein inserts, etc) and find someone with a shock dyno to measure their dampening. If you are able to talk your way into it, please post the results. Otherwise, you are just going to get adjectives.
http://www.nttyres.com/downloads/gui...yno_graphs.pdf
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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If I go with Bilstein shocks, and I'm leaning that way right now, It will be the B8 (sport) series.

I don't have the tools, experience, space, expertise, and money necessary to fabricate my own designs, so the fronts will be Tokico Blues for sure. If I did have all of this, I'd do the Bilstein inserts thing .

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
...


Reading your thread is what made me decide to ask this question. Even in this thread, I'm seeing the reply of "stiff", "squishy", "better", "harsh", etc. However, none of these descriptions do not answer my question in my OP of, "What can I get in to, or ride, that will give me an idea of how each setup combination will ride?" The other thing I stated in my OP is that I have no baseline of what either the Tokicos or Tokicos + Bilstien combo will feel / ride like. If there is nothing for me to ride in to give me an idea, then, that's fine. At that point, I can only make a final decision of what to buy based off of descriptions I've already read here and in other threads. And if that were the case, I'd make my decision simply off of @Grog6 's question of, "If you want to RACECAR, do the Bilsteins"


...
Great thread. I was reading through this early this morning on my flight home.

I'll update the Bilstein thread with the new (changed) part number.

To answer your question ""What can I get in to, or ride, that will give me an idea of how each setup combination will ride?""

There's really only two ways to get that experience. 1) get into one of our cars who have either setup or 2) get into a Mustang Cobra Convertible.

Oh, and BTW, you're welcome for the ShockWarehouse referral.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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Great thread. I was reading through this early this morning on my flight home.

I'll update the Bilstein thread with the new (changed) part number.

To answer your question ""What can I get in to, or ride, that will give me an idea of how each setup combination will ride?""

There's really only two ways to get that experience. 1) get into one of our cars who have either setup or 2) get into a Mustang Cobra Convertible.

Oh, and BTW, you're welcome for the ShockWarehouse referral.
TM, thanks!

I guess that answers that for my "get an idea" question, lol. And seeing as there's no one near me that I know with any of these setups, I'll have to go off of the descriptions provided. That said, I'll go with @Grog6 's recommendation of the Bilstein of "Because RACECAR" simply because of the $9 price difference on ShockWarehouse's website .

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 05:43 PM
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Seems like the cheapest least labor intensive thing to do is try both. You are talking about a car with modified suspension with stiffer bushings and 1.6 lowering springs.
The power you make is going to affect things too. Finally, the rear tire width you use is going to affect your grip if you have a stiff setup.

My car has the smaller lowering springs and mostly original bushings(softer setup I expect). Especially the big stuff in the rear is original. The Bilsteins aren't too bad for my setup. I get a bit of wheel hop if I try to drag race from a stop to WOT.

Racing from a stop light and turning left 90 degrees at WOT my fatter than stock tires do slip a bit but it feels good. Your stiffer bushings and I expect stiffer lowering springs might exacerbate the situation at my Cobra intake level of power.

With your different springs and stiffer bushings, I'd expect a rougher ride with Bilstiens and might want to try the Tokico Blues.

One is going to work better than the other for your car. After that you can chase what the more custom guys here are doing.

I spelled Bilsteins a couple ways, hopefully one is right.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 06:36 PM
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Read the whole thread again; the Bilsteins require a larger opening in the shock tower adapter plate than stock.

I was devious enough to buy Martigan's prototypes for his build, that's not something easily available, unless you can talk someone into making them.

I thought I should mention that before money is spent; Tokickos are the best bolt-on.

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 07:01 PM
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I thought we were discussing the rears?

I wish the Tokicos up front were about 10% stiffer in rebound and and compression, and they'd be perfect. Still the best bolt in option by a mile.

-Matt
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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You're right, this whole thread is about the rears.

The fronts I'm going with the Tokicos for sure.

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 11:42 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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My bad.

I like the Tokicos in the rear. Stiffer is always better, tho.

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
What you're saying is that you prefer the all Tokico setup of your Bird rather than the Tokico + Bilstien of your Cat? Which one of the two has the upgraded suspension components (besides the shocks, obviously) that we've talked about before, your Bird? If my understanding of this is right, have you ever put your Bilstiens on your Bird to see how different the feel and handling would be over the Tokico Blues?
The Cougar has all the same new parts as the Bird, with the exception of shocks and the Lincoln LCAs on the Bird. The Cougar has squishy Sensa-Tracs up front that I hate but it has the Bilsteins in the rear. The Bird has Blues on all corners. Both have Eibach 1.5" springs. It may not be a fair comparison, but I prefer the slightly softer Tokico setup. I have Votglands and Illumina IIs on the way so I may change my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Are you guys buying generic Bilstiens meant for a Cobra Mustang or the specific ones containing a Ford part number? Here's the thing, which goes to elaborate on what I mentioned this morning, the Bilstiens to seek out are Cobra Convertible shocks, NOT coupe. Cobra convertibles spring rates are much closer to the MN12 sport and aftermarket lowering spring rates. With coupe shocks you end up overshocking the car, and it's really not good for them or the chassis when it takes more resistance to compress them than the springs themselves. They should be matched.
Mine are vert take-offs.
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