Strut Rod Bushings - More Evidence Against Moog - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Strut Rod Bushings - More Evidence Against Moog

So, I attended another autocross event with the bird today. I managed to make a single run and when I went back to get in line for the next run I got out of the car and noticed a pretty big "UH OH". Both front tires seemed noticeably closer to the back side of the fender. A quick peak under the car showed me that the strut rod bushings were pretty much destroyed. Granted, the car is under a lot more stress than a normal stock car but these bushings didn't last 200 miles. I've attached a few pictures of the carnage. I guess I'm off to find OEM bushings and very expensive/fancy stainless steel sleeves.

Final warning: Don't buy thermoplastic strut rod bushings.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SRBushingFailure01.jpg (1.52 MB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg SRBushingFailure02.jpg (1.30 MB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg SRBushingFailure03.jpg (1.42 MB, 16 views)

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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 06:57 PM
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Sorry to hear this Randy!

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-15-2017, 08:11 PM
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Wow, that sucks. Yea, when you race like that everything needs to be "at least as good as or better than OEM". Having said that, I think the OEM bushings were by TRW.

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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 05:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
Wow, that sucks. Yea, when you race like that everything needs to be "at least as good as or better than OEM". Having said that, I think the OEM bushings were by TRW.
Yeah, it's obviously like Preston pointed out years ago and many people have reinforced. Anything beyond rubber runs the risk of being squished so hard that all it can do is tear apart. Oh well, TBSCShop sells the stainless steel sleeves, bushings and washers for $180 so that's on it's way. I have scheduled to run a track day on May 1st at Mid Ohio Sports Car Course so I have to get this ironed out before then.

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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 11:58 AM
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Can you post a link to the TBSCSshop listing for them? Thanks.
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Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 12:06 PM
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Here you go!

Front Strut Rod Stainless Steel Sleeves Kit with OEM Washers and Bushings - WWW.TBSCSHOP.COM

Yes, I have it saved to my favorites.
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 02:01 PM
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Lol

Thanks.

Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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He beat me to it. I bought the entire kit including the bushings and washers. I don't have enough time between now and May 1st to go shopping around.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
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Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 05:13 PM
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Please educate the ignorant........one end of the strut rod goes through the lower control arm ?


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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 06:37 PM
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Yup, and the other end through the front frame.

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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHADOW View Post
Please educate the ignorant........one end of the strut rod goes through the lower control arm ?
Correct. The other end goes through the "frame rail". The end on the frame rail side is the one that causes so much trouble.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1993 Ford Thunderbird LX
Coast High Peformance 342 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.73 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
dirtyd0g 9.5" Custom Torque Converter
Quarterhorse ECM from Moates
Zeitronix ZT-2 WB O2
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 06:46 PM
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The strut rod to lca ones aren't nearly as critical I might ad. Mine has had thermoplastic moogs there literally since I've owned the car, and they still look new even after replacing the LCAs this month.

-Matt

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2017, 09:51 PM
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Thanks..... I was about to order some cheap poly ones from rock auto for the lca side..... I already have a new set of stock ones from rock auto for the frame side.....my last ones lasted years, I mostly go in a straight line...... Lol
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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Just an update; I pulled the passenger side SR today. Here is the frame side bushing.

Edited to say that I realize that I had the bushings on backwards so that hastened their demise.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170422_150620.jpg (287.2 KB, 6 views)

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1993 Ford Thunderbird LX
Coast High Peformance 342 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.73 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
dirtyd0g 9.5" Custom Torque Converter
Quarterhorse ECM from Moates
Zeitronix ZT-2 WB O2
No times under new system.......yet.
OMGHI2U


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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
Just an update; I pulled the passenger side SR today. Here is the frame side bushing.
WTF!

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 02:46 PM
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Failed under braking clearly, other side looks mint. The stock rubber bushings have a metal cup on the front sandwiched between the k member and rubber(not sure if this piece is impregnated into the bushing or not) which presumably prevents the bushing from squishing outward in diameterunder load, and none of aftermarket ones have that, bet that plays into the demise of these things.

-Matt
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Failed under braking clearly, other side looks mint. The stock rubber bushings have a metal cup on the front sandwiched between the k member and rubber(not sure if this piece is impregnated into the bushing or not) which presumably prevents the bushing from squishing outward in diameterunder load, and none of aftermarket ones have that, bet that plays into the demise of these things.
I absolutely agree. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the thermoplastic bushings might actually last if you put a washer on the inside of each side to keep them from getting extruded through the frame rail. Nice sleeves would help too but I'm willing to bet the extra washer would allow them to compress instead of getting shredded.

Oh well, I have OEM versions now.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1993 Ford Thunderbird LX
Coast High Peformance 342 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.73 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
dirtyd0g 9.5" Custom Torque Converter
Quarterhorse ECM from Moates
Zeitronix ZT-2 WB O2
No times under new system.......yet.
OMGHI2U

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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 06:13 PM
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Didn't someone on SCCOA replace the strut rod bushings with spherical bearings?

Anyone know how that worked out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
I absolutely agree. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the thermoplastic bushings might actually last if you put a washer on the inside of each side to keep them from getting extruded through the frame rail. Nice sleeves would help too but I'm willing to bet the extra washer would allow them to compress instead of getting shredded.

Oh well, I have OEM versions now.
Seems like if you made an assembly to compress a disk of rubber, constrained as you said, we could adjust the 'feel' by using different durometer rubber or poly disks, on each side of the frame rail.

If the assemblies were mounted on opposing spherical bearings, it would still have the damping, but no distortion of the damper.

Anyone follow that?


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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 07:12 PM
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The main marks against spherical bearings is the necessary fab/modification of thestrut rods and frame mounts, which = and I only am willing to spend $$ on certain things and the geometry is slightly altered. The strut rod and LCA as assembled are a virtual A arm with pivot points parallel to the frame, with spherical bearings the pivots would end up diagonal.

-Matt
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-22-2017, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
The main marks against spherical bearings is the necessary fab/modification of thestrut rods and frame mounts, which = and I only am willing to spend $$ on certain things and the geometry is slightly altered. The strut rod and LCA as assembled are a virtual A arm with pivot points parallel to the frame, with spherical bearings the pivots would end up diagonal.
I'm not seeing this; wouldn't the ... Oh, I get it. You'd need different control arms, and the geometry would be whack.

Force vectors can be tricky.

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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 10:08 PM
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My driver's side went, got the kit and going to have a friend replace them all for me with OEM ones.
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
So, I attended another autocross event with the bird today. I managed to make a single run and when I went back to get in line for the next run I got out of the car and noticed a pretty big "UH OH". Both front tires seemed noticeably closer to the back side of the fender. A quick peak under the car showed me that the strut rod bushings were pretty much destroyed. Granted, the car is under a lot more stress than a normal stock car but these bushings didn't last 200 miles. I've attached a few pictures of the carnage. I guess I'm off to find OEM bushings and very expensive/fancy stainless steel sleeves.

Final warning: Don't buy thermoplastic strut rod bushings.
Soooo, what's the red thingie?

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 05:12 PM
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I posted these pics in another thread, but they kind of belong here too. I just changed a set of these out on a 94SC, that doesn't get driven much, and never gets beat on. I think a major contributing factor to their failure is the cheap split sleeves. As you can see from the pics, the sleeves deform on either end from the normal movement of the suspension. The bushings then start to deform in the area where the sleeves bend, and it weakens them. If someone is interesting in experimenting, I would like to know how these bushings would hold up if you used a set of Jay's stainless steel sleeves with them.


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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
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Soooo, what's the red thingie?
That's a homemade brace for the front subframe.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1993 Ford Thunderbird LX
Coast High Peformance 342 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.73 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
dirtyd0g 9.5" Custom Torque Converter
Quarterhorse ECM from Moates
Zeitronix ZT-2 WB O2
No times under new system.......yet.
OMGHI2U

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
I posted these pics in another thread, but they kind of belong here too. I just changed a set of these out on a 94SC, that doesn't get driven much, and never gets beat on. I think a major contributing factor to their failure is the cheap split sleeves. As you can see from the pics, the sleeves deform on either end from the normal movement of the suspension. The bushings then start to deform in the area where the sleeves bend, and it weakens them. If someone is interesting in experimenting, I would like to know how these bushings would hold up if you used a set of Jay's stainless steel sleeves with them.
So you're proposing someone use a set of Jay's SS sleeves and thermoplastic bushings to see how they hold up?

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 06:16 PM
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That's what I'm thinking. I still don't think they would last as long as the OEM rubber ones, but I think it might prevent the almost immediate catastrophic failure that we usually see with those.

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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
That's what I'm thinking. I still don't think they would last as long as the OEM rubber ones, but I think it might prevent the almost immediate catastrophic failure that we usually see with those.
I think that if you used a solid tube instead of a split (btw, you'll notice the tubes in my pic weren't split tubes) and put another washer on the inside of the front side bushing with a bigger hole for the bushings to still slide inside each other then I think the thermoplastic ones could last quite a while.

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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 08:45 AM
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This seems a bit overpriced for what they are.
Front Strut Rod Stainless Steel Sleeves Kit - WWW.TBSCSHOP.COM


If you have the dimensions of the original one (ID/OD/length of space between endcaps, diameter of endcaps), it might be nice to document as you could probably fabricate these fairly easily with a lathe.

I'm not even sure you need the endcaps -- which would make this a 3 step operation (lathe rod to right OD, drill inside out to correct ID, cut to length)

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
This seems a bit overpriced for what they are.
Front Strut Rod Stainless Steel Sleeves Kit - WWW.TBSCSHOP.COM


If you have the dimensions of the original one (ID/OD/length of space between endcaps, diameter of endcaps), it might be nice to document as you could probably fabricate these fairly easily with a lathe.

I'm not even sure you need the endcaps -- which would make this a 3 step operation (lathe rod to right OD, drill inside out to correct ID, cut to length)

-g
I think that we're haggling over pennies in the end. If you've had these fail on you at the wrong time then you're going to be in deep shit (see my evidence). The stainless steel sleeves are intended to keep you from having to ever replace them again. If you want to experiment with all of the variations then you have the tools and opportunity to do it. The two alignments that had to be done for the car already cost more than these parts. I'm tired of paying for services that I don't need to cover because of replacing parts so frequently.

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, suddenly everything looks like a nail."
"Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious."
1993 Ford Thunderbird LX
Coast High Peformance 342 Stroker
-Low Tension Oil Rings, Zero Gap Seconds
-10.5:1 Compression Ratio
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads
Trick Flow Stage 1 cam
Trick Flow Street Heat Intake
Mac 1 5/8 long tube headers
FRPP 42# injectors
3.73 gears
Custom aluminum driveshaft
Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
dirtyd0g 9.5" Custom Torque Converter
Quarterhorse ECM from Moates
Zeitronix ZT-2 WB O2
No times under new system.......yet.
OMGHI2U

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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MaddMartigan View Post
I think that we're haggling over pennies in the end. If you've had these fail on you at the wrong time then you're going to be in deep shit (see my evidence). The stainless steel sleeves are intended to keep you from having to ever replace them again. If you want to experiment with all of the variations then you have the tools and opportunity to do it. The two alignments that had to be done for the car already cost more than these parts. I'm tired of paying for services that I don't need to cover because of replacing parts so frequently.
There's always lifetime alignment services available from places like Firestone. I think it's $200 now (was $160 when I got it for my wife's car back in 2015), but after the third alignment, it's paid itself off. I have purchased it for all three of my cars and it's paid for itself tenfold on my DD alone.

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