2015 Factory Brembo option? - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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2015 Factory Brembo option?

On the Mustang forum I'm on, someone was asking about big brake options for the 99-04 Mustangs other than the $1500 Wilwood kits. One of the guys mentioned this kit... https://www.fullytorquedracing.com/m...brake-kit.html and I'm wondering how feasable it would be for our cars?

My thinking is, since the Cobra 13" calipers bolt right up, this adapter kit should also bolt up. I'm not a fan of the spacers they require, and am not sure if they'd be necessary for our application (but they probably would be), but for more braking, I wonder how they'd do.

Ideas?

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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 11:37 PM
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It seems to me all you'd need is a standard S197 relocation bracket they also sell, the spindles aren't any different between standard and the Brembo option on Mustangs so the kit they sell for the 12.8" rotors/2 pistons should work just the same with 14" Brembos without the stupid rotor spacer. I don't at all understand their reasoning for the spacer unless it's so SN95 owners can use high offset S197 wheels too. Why yes, I have been looking into this

Be sure your wheels clear, Brembos and other fixed opposing piston calipers limit wheel selection due to spoke clearance.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 06:29 AM
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My GT has the brembo's . And talk about stopping power WOW, Just about to the point of laying your toe on the pedal to stop !
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
On the Mustang forum I'm on, someone was asking about big brake options for the 99-04 Mustangs other than the $1500 Wilwood kits. One of the guys mentioned this kit... https://www.fullytorquedracing.com/m...brake-kit.html and I'm wondering how feasable it would be for our cars?

My thinking is, since the Cobra 13" calipers bolt right up, this adapter kit should also bolt up. I'm not a fan of the spacers they require, and am not sure if they'd be necessary for our application (but they probably would be), but for more braking, I wonder how they'd do.

Ideas?
Matt and I looked into this a fair amount. The kit includes the relocation bracket which should be fine. The spacer is of concern however. The spacer is a 3/4" or a 19mm spacer. If a 9" wheel normally requires a ~35mm offset then it feels like it's now going to require a ~55mm offset. I don't think you're going to find many options there.

However, as Matt said, if the purpose of that spacer is so that you can run S197 wheels then it may not be a big deal to not use it. However, if you don't use it then I don't see how their other spacer works either.

It might make more sense to get the calipers and rotors and figure out what the spacing needs to be without that kit and just make them yourself.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 03:05 PM
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After looking at the pictures on that link, it looks like the brackets bolt to the spindle on the rotor side, and so they move the caliper further toward the face of the wheel, and as a result, you need to move the rotors the same amount, so you won't be able to run those brackets without also using those rotor spacers. Instead, if that bracket bolted to the back side of the spindle, you could then weld on some pedestals to move the caliper back toward the outside of the wheel, and use longer bolts to hold it all together.

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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 03:27 PM
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Exactly. Same way we do the 11.65" rears.

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 04:46 PM
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Exactly. Same way we do the 11.65" rears.
Seems like another opportunity for Dave Dalke. It seems like he's already got the machining set up to build similar brackets. His parts are extremely nice. Might be a thing to investigate.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 06:51 AM
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While we're at it, they have this too: SN95 13" Rear Brake Bracket

That's for live axle but they say they're working on a version for IRS.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 10:02 AM
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I'll make my own thank you
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 11:25 AM
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I'll make my own thank you
I figured you would.

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Built Darrin/dirtyd0g AOD with wide ratio gearset
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 07:49 PM
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Big Brake Kits and Fixed Calipers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
On the Mustang forum I'm on, someone was asking about big brake options for the 99-04 Mustangs other than the $1500 Wilwood kits. One of the guys mentioned this kit... https://www.fullytorquedracing.com/m...brake-kit.html and I'm wondering how feasable it would be for our cars?

My thinking is, since the Cobra 13" calipers bolt right up, this adapter kit should also bolt up. I'm not a fan of the spacers they require, and am not sure if they'd be necessary for our application (but they probably would be), but for more braking, I wonder how they'd do.

Ideas?
Fixed caliper brake systems are so much better than floating calipers. I had an Infiniti G35 Coupe with Brembo's and it was probably the best stopping car I ever drove. My Saleen Cobra has the 6 Piston Wilwoods up front and the original Cobra rear brakes out back. Both cars had sticky 18" Summer performance tires and when you increase your braking capabilities, without sticky tires, or upgraded rear brakes, you won't get the maximum benefit from them. My Saleen stops great but its not the same as the G35 with factory fitted brakes. Maybe if I upgrade the rear to Wilwoods that will change, and that is the plan this year. Looks crappy to have these huge brakes on the front and then in comparison the tiny rears.

I plan to upgrade my Mark VIII to 4 piston calipers. I believe its a SSBC kit I saw at Summit. Its reasonable with all parts included for I think around $800. Personally I don't see the PBR's as much of an upgrade due to the floating caliper design.

I know many people have upgraded MN12's/FN10's, and plenty of Mustangs with bigger brakes with more pistons, but I rarely hear any mention regarding hydraulics or fluid volume and though I am no expert on the subject of hydraulics, I believe that there is a concern over too big an increase and no change to master cylinder. The 96 Cobra which had different brakes (PBR's) than the GT's single piston caliper also had a master cylinder with a bigger bore (1" vs .75"). Now I don't know about the later Cobra's, the Bullitt's, Shelby's etc., but there must have been some reason for the change, although it might not be to have enough volume or pressure and be more strictly about performance. For that reason, I would suggest someone discuss whether upgrading to 4 piston calipers over a single caliper might require an upgraded master cylinder. Probably not, as I think even my Saleen which went from 2 piston PBR's to 6 piston Wilwoods did not get an upgraded master as part of the kit.

Another benefit to fixed calipers is the lack of maintenance required for slide and pins since there are none. Rebuilding is simply just a matter of replacing the o-rings, though dealing with the extra calipers requires additional clamps to keep all but one piston at a time locked down at a time.

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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Fixed caliper brake systems are so much better than floating calipers. I had an Infiniti G35 Coupe with Brembo's and it was probably the best stopping car I ever drove. My Saleen Cobra has the 6 Piston Wilwoods up front and the original Cobra rear brakes out back. Both cars had sticky 18" Summer performance tires and when you increase your braking capabilities, without sticky tires, or upgraded rear brakes, you won't get the maximum benefit from them. My Saleen stops great but its not the same as the G35 with factory fitted brakes. Maybe if I upgrade the rear to Wilwoods that will change, and that is the plan this year. Looks crappy to have these huge brakes on the front and then in comparison the tiny rears.

I plan to upgrade my Mark VIII to 4 piston calipers. I believe its a SSBC kit I saw at Summit. Its reasonable with all parts included for I think around $800. Personally I don't see the PBR's as much of an upgrade due to the floating caliper design.

I know many people have upgraded MN12's/FN10's, and plenty of Mustangs with bigger brakes with more pistons, but I rarely hear any mention regarding hydraulics or fluid volume and though I am no expert on the subject of hydraulics, I believe that there is a concern over too big an increase and no change to master cylinder. The 96 Cobra which had different brakes (PBR's) than the GT's single piston caliper also had a master cylinder with a bigger bore (1" vs .75"). Now I don't know about the later Cobra's, the Bullitt's, Shelby's etc., but there must have been some reason for the change, although it might not be to have enough volume or pressure and be more strictly about performance. For that reason, I would suggest someone discuss whether upgrading to 4 piston calipers over a single caliper might require an upgraded master cylinder. Probably not, as I think even my Saleen which went from 2 piston PBR's to 6 piston Wilwoods did not get an upgraded master as part of the kit.

Another benefit to fixed calipers is the lack of maintenance required for slide and pins since there are none. Rebuilding is simply just a matter of replacing the o-rings, though dealing with the extra calipers requires additional clamps to keep all but one piston at a time locked down at a time.
Got a link to the SSBC kit you're talking about?

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 08:50 PM
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Cobra brakes don't use slide pins either, the calipers are guided by the pads along channels milled into the bracket.



The master cylinder bore in these cars(with rear disc and ABS anyway) is 1-1/16"
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 09:56 PM
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if it floats it blows....

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Cobra brakes don't use slide pins either, the calipers are guided by the pads along channels milled into the bracket.



The master cylinder bore in these cars(with rear disc and ABS anyway) is 1-1/16"
That makes sense with a bigger and heavier car - the bigger bore. I never knew that.

Yes, no slide pins, but they still float and slide meaning they are prone to uneven wesr and braking. The only way a fixed caliper causes uneven pressure is a leak or frozen piston. With floaters add to that dirt or rust or binding anywhere the pads or caliper rub each other. Its just my opinion. For me i wouldnt spend money to upgrade to 2 piston calipers. I understand its an improvement and economical but its not for me. I spent my money on tires over brakes until im ready to go 4 piston.

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 10:01 PM
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Heres the link... ssbc extreme 13" 4piston complete...a bit more than i remembered

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Got a link to the SSBC kit you're talking about?
Heres the link... ssbc extreme 13" 4piston complete...a bit more than i remembered. But still possible at around $900 on ebay as ebay has been running many 8-10% ebay bucks promos this year. So if you're buying an expensive part thru summit you can get a discount on ebay....

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...6/applications

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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1Motorsports View Post
That makes sense with a bigger and heavier car - the bigger bore. I never knew that.

Yes, no slide pins, but they still float and slide meaning they are prone to uneven wesr and braking. The only way a fixed caliper causes uneven pressure is a leak or frozen piston. With floaters add to that dirt or rust or binding anywhere the pads or caliper rub each other. Its just my opinion. For me i wouldnt spend money to upgrade to 2 piston calipers. I understand its an improvement and economical but its not for me. I spent my money on tires over brakes until im ready to go 4 piston.
I'm only pointing out that the extra maintenance isn't there on the Cobras, the pad guides/clips are the wear point(as far as I can tell with mine they aren't wearing out the bracket itself so they seem to be sacrificial) so when you replace pads you replace that point too, I never had an issue with dirt or rust binding in those points either, and I bought mine used, not even remaned. Maybe if I put it away wet and parked it for a long time, it would be an issue, but then so would the rotors. Rust won't form when friction keeps polishing the surfaces. Add to that that design makes them every bit as quick and simple to change pads on as Brembos. I don't disagree with the heirchy in designs, but 2 piston sliders have their place. 13" Cobras are hands down the best bang for the buck bolt on brake setup for a street performance car available, while fixed designs all have a huge premium attached to them, and may or may not fit your wheels(not likely an issue on 0 offset muscle cars but a real factor with us)

Don't get me wrong, I love 4 pistons, I've wanted them longer than I've had Cobras, but I'm pragmatic. I know the value of this car, and I have no desire to plunk down a third of it's worth on them. You'll have to do a better job convincing me that "settling" on the 13" Cobras instead of maintaining the stock little single pistons with warped rotors, worn pads, frozen pins, and torn boots by the time I swapped, for basically the same cost mind you, was the wrong decision.
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:16 PM
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I'm only pointing out that the extra maintenance isn't there on the Cobras, the pad guides/clips are the wear point(as far as I can tell with mine they aren't wearing out the bracket itself so they seem to be sacrificial) so when you replace pads you replace that point too, I never had an issue with dirt or rust binding in those points either, and I bought mine used, not even remaned. Maybe if I put it away wet and parked it for a long time, it would be an issue, but then so would the rotors. Rust won't form when friction keeps polishing the surfaces. Add to that that design makes them every bit as quick and simple to change pads on as Brembos. I don't disagree with the heirchy in designs, but 2 piston sliders have their place. 13" Cobras are hands down the best bang for the buck bolt on brake setup for a street performance car available, while fixed designs all have a huge premium attached to them, and may or may not fit your wheels(not likely an issue on 0 offset muscle cars but a real factor with us)

Don't get me wrong, I love 4 pistons, I've wanted them longer than I've had Cobras, but I'm pragmatic. I know the value of this car, and I have no desire to plunk down a third of it's worth on them. You'll have to do a better job convincing me that "settling" on the 13" Cobras instead of maintaining the stock little single pistons with warped rotors, worn pads, frozen pins, and torn boots by the time I swapped, for basically the same cost mind you, was the wrong decision.
Very good points. My Saleen Cobra already had been upgraded to Wilwoods when I bought it so I have no direct experience with the PBR Calipers. I agree its hard to justify spending $1000 for the upgrade. I'll get much more bang for the buck and enjoyment out of the 5 speed swap then I would the brakes.

Did you notice a big increase in stopping power with the PBR Upgrade? Did you also upgrade the rears?

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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 02:32 PM
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The difference in stopping power between the 13" PBRs and the stock brakes is huge. I've never driven one that has been swapped to the Brembo's, so I don't know how much of an improvement those would be over the PBR's, but in my opinion, for a street car, the 13" PBRs are sufficient. Even on the Lemons racecar, we ran the 13" PBRs, and repeatedly slowing down from 135 on the straight to about 45 for the first turn, over the course of 2 days, they never faded. On the other hand, the stock brakes on that same track were heating up so bad that the brake pad actually welded itself to the caliper piston from the heat!

Nobody is arguing that the fixed calipers aren't better, but are they enough better to warrant 3x the price? On a high end build, or a track car, maybe, but on a street car, I say probably not. And yes, you will enjoy the 5-speed swap much more than a brake upgrade, but then again you generally don't upgrade the brakes to enjoy them, but rather to be able to stop in time to safely enjoy the other upgrades.
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 11:09 PM
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I JUST upgraded the rears to the 11.65" rotors, so my experience is with the fronts only until my project is complete, but the difference in front alone pretty much put an end to my "is it going to stop from this speed" anxiety I acquired with the old brakes. The 2 piston PBRs on stock rotors most popular in the club I have actually never driven I don't think, despite installing a few on members cars They seem to be as effective as sport brakes but without the propensity to overheat and warp rotors. If you want to keep stock wheels those are the way to go.
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
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I JUST upgraded the rears to the 11.65" rotors, so my experience is with the fronts only until my project is complete, but the difference in front alone pretty much put an end to my "is it going to stop from this speed" anxiety I acquired with the old brakes. The 2 piston PBRs on stock rotors most popular in the club I have actually never driven I don't think, despite installing a few on members cars They seem to be as effective as sport brakes but without the propensity to overheat and warp rotors. If you want to keep stock wheels those are the way to go.
To me, the reason to upgrade the rears is to be able to have bolt-on brakes in the 5x4.5" pattern and not have to worry about re-drilling the rotors or elongating the holes. The braking improvement from the larger rear rotors was not noticeable to me.

As for the GT PBR swap, that definitely stops way better than the sport brakes, but will still fade with repeated high speed stops, since it is still using the small stock rotors.

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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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To me, the reason to upgrade the rears is to be able to have bolt-on brakes in the 5x4.5" pattern and not have to worry about re-drilling the rotors or elongating the holes. The braking improvement from the larger rear rotors was not noticeable to me.

As for the GT PBR swap, that definitely stops way better than the sport brakes, but will still fade with repeated high speed stops, since it is still using the small stock rotors.
For me, already having the GT PBR calipers on the car, I want the 13" cobra front, 11.65" cobra rear to "fill up" the inside of my 18" wheels more, and to be more balanced than they would be with 13" front, stock rear. I know that the main improvement is the front calipers, but that way it's all done. I'll file out the holes so that the rotors will fit the stock pattern, I figure an extra hour into the job to change the rotors every few years isn't such a bad deal.

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 10:03 AM
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Filing the holes works better on the fronts, since those hubs have a hubcentric "step" for the rotor, the same size as SN95, but the rears are the smaller diameter all the way to the flange. You'll need a ring to accurately locate it the rotor

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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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Filing the holes works better on the fronts, since those hubs have a hubcentric "step" for the rotor, the same size as SN95, but the rears are the smaller diameter all the way to the flange. You'll need a ring to accurately locate it the rotor
I've got rings that came with my caliper adapter kit.

97 Thunderbird LX (The GT Bird)
2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 03:09 PM
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My '97 had the Sport front brakes and standard rear disc as-built, and it stopped "OK". I ran KVR cross-drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads for several years and they helped a bit. But upgrading to the Cobra 13" front and 11.65" rear rotors last year was a revelation. The car stops with much more authority and confidence now than it ever did before. Time and money well spent!

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