Motorcraft vs Other Brand Oil Filters - Page 6 - TCCoA Forums

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post #151 of 244 (permalink) Old 09-10-2014, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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PQIA on HM Oil's

Spotlight on High Mileage Motor Oils

First five in the series.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/

List of Purolator failures = Media tears


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post #152 of 244 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 12:01 PM
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Fram sucks. Don't use them. I also did not like Driveworks. I purchased their equivalent of the FL1A and my 5 liter knocked on start up. I changed the filter and it went away.
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post #153 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-10-2014, 07:16 PM Thread Starter
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Sample tests of oils that are on the market.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/samplesummaryPCMOrev4test.htm
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post #154 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-10-2014, 08:41 PM
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Interesting that royal purple 10w30 synthetic is 2 qualification standards behind and still green.

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post #155 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-10-2014, 10:19 PM
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Well, at least the L24651 or PL24651 didn't fail.

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post #156 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-11-2014, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderChecken View Post
Sample tests of oils that are on the market.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/samplesummaryPCMOrev4test.htm

Excellent link to actual real test data from an independent laboratory.

I always use Pennzoil conventional 5w30 in my Thunderbird, and I found it very interesting to compare that brand with other brands often mentioned on TCCoA.

For instance, Mobil Clean 5000, compared to the Pennzoil, show superior numbers in certain categories, yet the Pennzoil fares better in others. But these differences, at least between these two oils, is marginal. What's important to know is not to use some of those oils at all, in anything, not even a lawnmower. Like Xtreme 2000 Super Premium. Super Premium...HA!

I found the information about phosphorus something I was not aware of.

"The phosphorus content of new oil is typically associated with zinc dialkyldithiophosphate antiwear additives (ZDDP). Antiwear additives are used to reduce wear by limiting the friction of moving parts. They do so by forming a thin protective film on metal surfaces. Low phosphorus could indicates that there may not be enough anti-wear protection of the oil, however this could be compensated by adding a non-phosphorus containing aniwear additive High Phosphorus levels can lead to emission system failures due to catalytic converter poisoning The current API standards for passenger car engine oils (API SM, SN, and ILSAC GF-5) require phosphorus to be between 600 to 800 ppm to provide sufficient wear protection while guarding against catalytic converter poisoning (shown by the area in green). The amber area takes into account the precision of the test method. Results in the red area do not meet current API passenger car motor oil standards."




Interesting stuff. Noted since my cats have 154k on them.

Thanks Darren for posting.

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post #157 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-11-2014, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Most welcome Rush , Pennzoil Ultra Platinum is very popular but seems hard to find.

I remember back in the day Pennz was made from Pennsylvania Grade Crude

I run Amsoil SS 5W30 in the 96 for its excellent protection package.

Mobil 5K 5W30 with the other rides

High Phosphorus levels doing harm to cats ......I have read that before .
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post #158 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-11-2014, 11:39 AM
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Yeah, I see that in the link. Pennzoil is based in Texas. Now I'm wondering if brands of motor oil, sold in the U.S., come from wells in N. America.

I've been running the conventional oil in the Thunderbird ever since I've owned it. So that would be about 79k miles. What's your take on switching to a full synthetic? Any concerns?

Yes, the part about Phosphorus is from the link you provided.

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post #159 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-11-2014, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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Rush,
ZDDP is what I was thinking of with the affect on converters.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts...l/viewall.html

Article is a bit old but interesting.

http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/
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post #160 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 05:02 AM
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http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/

Y'know I had to read that a couple of times before it sank it in on what it was exactly saying. My head cocked to the side, I'm like...What the?... Am I understanding this correctly?

Here is an excerpt from the article.


Quote.
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear

In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3000 miles to 15000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval. The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered. End quote.

I think what this means is as the oil runs in the engine for a longer period of time the additives that act as a metal treatment form thicker/bond stronger. This make perfect sense. But, what I don't quite understand is why the same formation of the treatment of metal would also not occur if the oil was replaced with fresh oil every 3000 miles. Why better results leaving the oil for 12 to 15000 miles.

The only thing I can think of is that there is some sort of chemical reaction that occurs as the oil gets older allowing the release of such additives to bond more readily with metal parts.

..."although several other factors must to be considered." Yeah, like dirt/sand/water, and contaminates caused by blow by.

Very interesting, counter intuitive study. However, I don't think I'll be changing my oil service intervals anytime soon. Especially with conventional oil.

The other link is interesting too. I wasn't aware not to use synthetic oil when breaking in flat tappet cams. Or that synthetic oil may not allow the lifers to rotate.

Do the followers on the 4.6 rotate?

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post #161 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
The other link is interesting too. I wasn't aware not to use synthetic oil when breaking in flat tappet cams. Or that synthetic oil may not allow the lifers to rotate.

Do the followers on the 4.6 rotate?
The cam followers on the 4.6 rotate; they're roller followers. The lash adjusters do not. It's a completely different animal compared to a flat tappet OHV arrangement.

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post #162 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 07:22 AM
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The cam followers on the 4.6 rotate; they're roller followers. The lash adjusters do not. It's a completely different animal compared to a flat tappet OHV arrangement.
Ah, yes, thank you. I realize now it is indeed a completely different animal. I think I get confused sometimes because I hear/read sohc valve train parts labeled with different names for the same part. Or the follower is called a "lifter".

It is a "roller rocker arm follower". A Class 2 lever with a roller load point.


The one on the left is a roller rocker arm follower with a roller adjuster, right?


It's clear to me now there is no need to worry about using synthetic oil on our engines, since a taper in the cam lobe does not cause a lifter to rotate, like on an ohv engine.

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post #163 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
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I think I get confused sometimes because I hear/read sohc valve train parts labeled with different names for the same part. Or the follower is called a "lifter".
Yep, the lash adjuster is all too often called a "lifter" and the cam follower a "rocker arm". People get stuck in their OHV ways.

The follower on the left in your picture would be considered a roller-tip roller cam follower. The roller at the tip eliminates friction at the valve stem tip.

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post #164 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 05:36 PM
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Who makes the follower on the left?

It also has a smaller oil bleed hole...

That looks even pricer than the GT follower.

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post #165 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 07:53 PM
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That's a Jesel follower. They aren't cheap, but they are very nice pieces.

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post #166 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-13-2014, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
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Yep, the lash adjuster is all too often called a "lifter" and the cam follower a "rocker arm". People get stuck in their OHV ways.

The follower on the left in your picture would be considered a roller-tip roller cam follower. The roller at the tip eliminates friction at the valve stem tip.
Thanks much for the clarifications. I so often read posts where someone writes something like, "My 4.6 has roller rockers", and I go..."Huh?". I'm kind of a stickler for correct terminology of such things.

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post #167 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
The Effect of Oil Drain Interval on Valvetrain Friction and Wear

In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15 % lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3000 miles to 15000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15000 mile drain interval. The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.
Counterintuitive, to put it mildly. As much as I want to try this out, it's just not going to happen.

I suspect the filter was not changed until the appointed intervals. I've long been one to believe that the dirtier a filter gets, the "better" it works. That is, as the filter media fills up, the captured particles start to clog, stopping smaller particles that would otherwise pass through. Although this could cause a flow performance issue, the filter is no doubt doing a better job of filtering.

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post #168 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 08:32 PM
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When I was going to school I changed the oil in my Cougar every 2000 miles. That engine still spun a bearing. My SC let the VMM tell me and only issue it has had is last motor dropped a valve.

I am inclined to lean in agreement with the article.

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post #169 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-16-2014, 09:02 AM
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Eh, I change my oil and filter every 5,000 miles. Almost 180,000 miles with no issues....knock on wood.

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post #170 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-16-2014, 09:39 AM
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I change my oil every 5,000 miles as well on both my Bird and Accord. Neither have had any engine problems. The Accord is currently at 273k miles and my Bird is at 175k miles.

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post #171 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-16-2014, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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post #172 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-16-2014, 04:29 PM
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Finally felt one of these thinner can Motorcraft filters.

If I put the filter on, I know I can get it off by hand. Changed the oil on my 2000 Grand Marquis (the 260k change, so I have changed the oil at least 50 times on it having put 245k miles on it) and gripping it halfway between the gasket end and the capped end, went to twist and could tell I collapsed it to the filter media. I had to grip it on the end with the flutes, I could still feel it collapsing, but not too bad.

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post #173 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-16-2014, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
Counterintuitive, to put it mildly. As much as I want to try this out, it's just not going to happen.

I suspect the filter was not changed until the appointed intervals. I've long been one to believe that the dirtier a filter gets, the "better" it works. That is, as the filter media fills up, the captured particles start to clog, stopping smaller particles that would otherwise pass through. Although this could cause a flow performance issue, the filter is no doubt doing a better job of filtering.
Interesting hypothesis. But, it maybe taking one step forward only to take two steps back. Or, until the bypass valve activates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowez
When I was going to school I changed the oil in my Cougar every 2000 miles. That engine still spun a bearing. My SC let the VMM tell me and only issue it has had is last motor dropped a valve.

I am inclined to lean in agreement with the article.

Are you sure those failures can't be contributed to factors other than the age of the oil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderChecken
Slapstick dipstick commercial
I remember that one.

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post #174 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-26-2014, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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Additive depletion



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post #175 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-26-2014, 02:47 PM
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Let's not over analize this.
Oil filters are a safety precaution.
Gasoline engines do not need oil filters.
But due to the expense of some of them, the manufacturer
Included them.
Look at 4 cycle lawn mower engine etc....

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post #176 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-26-2014, 09:42 PM
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Your lawn mower doesn't have an oil filter?

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post #177 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-27-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
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Let's not over analize this.
Oil filters are a safety precaution.
Gasoline engines do not need oil filters.
But due to the expense of some of them, the manufacturer
Included them.
Look at 4 cycle lawn mower engine etc....
I completely and totally disagree; the quality of your oil is directly proportional to the overall lifetime.

With today's oils, debris accumulation is a bigger problem than oil breakdown.

Miniscule grains of carbon accumulate in the oil at a rate determined by ring leakage, cylinder washdown, egr recycling; lots of factors accumulate carbon in our oil, the eventual cleanser of all things interior to the engine.

The filter is the only thing that keeps the long chains of crap out of the bearings.

A two stage filter setup is even better, If you use a finer filter medium in the second filter.
In this kind of a setup, you might be able to go 10k miles on good oil. By changing the filters...

I get 2500 out of Lazarus at 230k before it loads up with black crap; that's what tells me it's time to go.
I add a half can of seafoam, drive to the store for beer, drain it for a beer when I get back, then the filter will be cool enough to remove.

Cheap Lawnmower engines don't have filters, real engines do; those engines people care about.

My 2-stroke dirt bike does not have a filter. But no oil lasts for two rides, so it works out. I always change it when I get back.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #178 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-27-2014, 08:56 PM
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The only automotive engine that I can think of off hand that wasn't manufactured with an oil filter is the 1955 Chevy 265. One was added, I believe a dealer item, that attached by the T-sat.

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post #179 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-27-2014, 09:15 PM
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G, what I'm saying is if there are large enough particles of crap in your oil,
that engine has bigger problems than filter medium.

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post #180 of 244 (permalink) Old 10-27-2014, 09:23 PM
Kind of slapped together
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bossier City, LA
Age: 61
Posts: 4,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by rushtonracing View Post
The only automotive engine that I can think of off hand that wasn't manufactured with an oil filter is the 1955 Chevy 265. One was added, I believe a dealer item, that attached by the T-sat.
Huh.

So, the Model T motor was never made?

How about most any of the Studebaker flat head motors?

Oil filters used to be an option on most cars, if it was even available.

OH! Don't forget the FIRST Chevy V8, the one without valve covers, back in the 20's.

RwP

Fuelly
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