what's needed for 300 rwhp - Page 3 - TCCoA Forums

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post #61 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 02:36 AM
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No its cool I can handle it I stand corrected.

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post #62 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 08:21 AM
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Not on topic, but just to clarify what a basically bone stock 32V (97 Mark VIII LSC) will put down at the wheels (blue line is the Mark VIII, the red line is my 73 Vert(351C-4V)):


Most likely these numbers are on the low side a little because soon after that dyno, I threw a "sticking IMRC" code and had a coil start misfiring. But nowhere near 250!!

But the point is moot as the OP specifically said he wasn’t interested in a 32V swap.

IMHO, it really boils down to a cost/benefit analysis while also factoring in intended application and uniqueness. I’ve never been a fan of “xxx hp” as it is only a number. What is important is the overall package, not just some peak number.

But just my .02.

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Last edited by 94 Daily Driven 4.6L; 03-11-2009 at 08:47 AM.
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post #63 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 08:40 AM
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Yep-that's about what I've seen out of them...215 ft-lbs. And I get scoffed at when I describe the B-head 4V as the "torqueless wonder".
JL

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post #64 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 01:05 PM
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So, what we've pretty much seen is to get 300 RWHP from a 2V, you need a 4.6 or a big bore with ported heads of some sort (or the Trick Flow cylinder heads), a good set of cams and valve hardware, PI manifold, and headers.

What's so expensive about that? If you keep the RPMs below 6500 and stay NA, I think a stock shortblock would work just fine in that application. Several people have gone 12's on stock shortblocks.

The only "expensive" thing on the parts list above would be the cost of a used aluminum block (got mine for $300 shipped) and the big bore option ($1200), if you decide to go that route for an extra 40-50 RWHP and 40-60 FtLbs across the entire RPM range.

Pete

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3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
1/8 mile: 8.75 @ 82
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post #65 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-11-2009, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Big Pete and to everyone else that stayed on topic and provided information that related to my original question . I will keep all this info in mind and hopefully by the time I am ready to do this we will have some actual numbers on the trick flow Heads by then . If not I will look into some ported heads.


Thanks again for the advice
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post #66 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 09:27 PM
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I good set of cams,ported heads,intake mani,throttle body,injector and a tune.If you want this 300 to the ground,you will need a good converter,set of gears and preferable a better tranny.
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post #67 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega47 View Post
I good set of cams,ported heads,intake mani,throttle body,injector and a tune.If you want this 300 to the ground,you will need a good converter,set of gears and preferable a better tranny.

The converter and gears won't make more power, but they will help make better use of the power that you have at the track and every other time you step on the gas.

Pete

-97 XR-7
-5.0 Big Bore ...
Ran @ Normal Operating Temps, No Race Tune, No Setup Changes from Daily Driven Configurations
9.0 @ 78 (1/8 Mile only in Abilene )
2.06 60' on Street Tires (BFG G-Force Super Sport 245/50/16)
3805 Lbs, Stock Exhaust Manifolds
Density Altitude = 4132'
That Run, Corrected for Standard Day
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post #68 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 09:35 PM
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I can tell you its not that hard to find the HP.
My silver car NA ran times that translated to close to 280 rwhp.
It was a low compression PI from Renegade with forged bottom end.
I believe it was an 8.5:1 since it was set up for blower originally.
the heads were worked over well so it breathed. Sir William with his rear turbo could never pull on me in that car in Ohio.
So parts:
substitute Non-PI short block, $200 (for a core you are willing to break)
Massaged PI heads or Non-PI $1200
The short list:
90mm LMAF $200
70mm TB $200
PI intake $200
JBA crap headers $450
true dual exhaust $400
catco hiflo cats $200
X-pipe forward of the trans mount. $80

Engine total $4130

Running gear: This gets the best out of the engine
10" high stall converter $600
J-Mod trans $free
aluminum driveshaft $150
3.73 geared rear with T-lock $700

Driveline total $1450

Add, Fuel pump, injectors for safety sake, +$400

This combo netted 14.10 at 96 mph on very stiffly sprung suspension but on drag radials.

So figure about $6400 overall. I think I would try to capitalize on JL's success, IE Cams, Bullet intake etc.

Add a cheap '96/'97 car for about $3000 that you put on a weight loss diet you are
about $10,000 for a likely 13 second car at sea level.

AS COMPARISON.
A non-PI car, almost purely stock 3.27 gears with a Vortech without any cooling at probably 6PSI, will put down about the same as the above, 280 rwhp on a conservative tune. It would have easily run 300+ rwhp with a little more agressive A/F profile.
Car $3000
Blower $2000 used.
LMAF, Injectors, FP, $500
$5500 for a likely 13 second car at seal level and take $4000 and buy a couple houses in Michigan
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post #69 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-24-2009, 11:32 PM
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Trickflow 2V heads, cams, and intake. At least 300 to the wheels with the said combo. At least that's what it's looking like.

Michael M. ASE P2 Automobile Parts Specialist.

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post #70 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-14-2010, 05:36 PM
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I hate to resurrect a thread probably better buried , but this thread's post by MAIC above is the best list of mod motors easily found...

That list ends pretty early compared to now; So; will the later engines still swap with the same issues as before?

I'm looking at getting a later PI motor that will easily swap into my Red Cougar, so that I can send the heads out, and some other stuff.

I've seen some extremely low mileage GM's in the boneyard; will the longblocks still swap without major hassle?

IIRC, 96 parts just bolt up the a GM longblock. Is that still correct after 2005?

Exhaust, upper manifold, valve covers, and all the front parts will bolt up?


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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post #71 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-14-2010, 08:32 PM
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wow i can really learn alot when you guys are fighting on which is better, faster, and/or cheaper. you guys should fight more often..

ive come to the conclusion that 300rwhp is not cheap or easy and its best to buy a car that already has 300rwhp and not mess with it.

-Patrick
9.63@77mph on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/30-videos-images/129479-tbird1997-pictues.html
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post #72 of 90 (permalink) Old 03-14-2010, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird1997 View Post
you guys should fight more often..
Search for ... No, I won't do that.
PLEASE don't resurrect the old fight threads!

Finding all the big ones is pretty hard; most of the juicy stuff gets edited out pretty quickly. All the more reason to visit regularly, lol.

Some of the best guys are in this thread, and there is some good info.

Some of the engines on that list are much easier than others to install; I cracked a bellhousing insert out of the Mark block I have, and I'm going to have to have it fixed, so I'm going to do more than originally planned to the Mark motor. Like get the heads reworked, like I should have to start with...

Search: "5.4 +swap" or "DR"; there are many others, lol




EDIT: OK, I finally found the post I was looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Langton View Post
No-they are still a 2V thru '09,and the latest OEM calibration for them is 9W7A-EF, 9W7A-FF, 9W7A-GE, 9W7A-JE, 9W7A-KE, or 9W7A-LE depending on original boxcode. There are NO 3V 4.6L in CV's.
JL
That's from the police car thread, here:
What do Crown Vic Police cars have?

They should swap like any PI thru 09, at least.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

I'm not Human enough to be human; but I'm trying to fit in, and I'm learning to fake it.

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Last edited by Grog6; 03-14-2010 at 10:58 PM.
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post #73 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-29-2010, 10:43 AM
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Upper Plenum Differences?

OK, so I have the upper plenum from a Thunderbird and I also have one from a Mustang. Are there any differences? I'm looking at them side by side and they look almost identical; they even have the same casting number in the sides 9A589. The Mustang one has another number on a sticker, XR3E-XF.

I realize if I got a BBK or some other aftermarket, that would be better, but I have these two now. Would cleaning them up by polishing up the inside real good be worth anything? What would you all do?

Thanks for letting me know!
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post #74 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-29-2010, 12:48 PM
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Best off just using the tbird one since it has the vacuum port for the brake booster.

And no, you wont see any notable gain from porting it, or a gain from an aftermarket one for that matter.

-Matt
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post #75 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-29-2010, 02:04 PM
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idk me and a friend put a BBK throttle body with affucub plenuim and a CAI on his 04 mustang gt and noticed a nice little gain on it mostly throttle response. but idk if it was worth $500......................................... its not

-Patrick
9.63@77mph on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479
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post #76 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-29-2010, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird1997 View Post
mostly throttle response
not "mostly", thats actually all you get.....unless you have cams and are turning some serious RPMs
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post #77 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 04:23 PM
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Got 274 rear wheel HP (sea level) on my 96 GT (check sig below for the mods).

To get more I would need long tube headers, port and polished heads,bigger cams, and then maybe that should do it.... Or just add a 75 shot

300 is possible but its not easy or cheap.

96 Mustang GT w/ 5 speed... PI heads, Intake & Cams on a NPI block. SCT dyno tune. Cat'less 2.5" duals with flowmasters, K&N CAI, 70mm Throttle Body, underdrive pullies, 3.27 rear gears.

98 Mark Viii... bone stock.

(sold) 93 Vic... PI heads, Intake, & cams on NPI block. SCT tune. P-71 exhaust. 1996 P-71 trans (J-modded) and aluminum drave shaft with 11.25 mark 8 converter. COPS ignition. Electronic cooling fan. 3.08 gearing.

(sold) 85 Riviera... 6.6L 403 Olds, 214/224 cam, performer intake, 850 cfm Q-jet, elect fans on 4 core rad, 2-1/2" duals with spintech mufflers, 3.36 final drive, 2400 stall, modified 325-4L trans.
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post #78 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94 Daily Driven 4.6L View Post
I’ve never been a fan of “xxx hp” as it is only a number. What is important is the overall package, not just some peak number.

But just my .02.

Thats exactly how I feel too. Numbers are just that.

96 Mustang GT w/ 5 speed... PI heads, Intake & Cams on a NPI block. SCT dyno tune. Cat'less 2.5" duals with flowmasters, K&N CAI, 70mm Throttle Body, underdrive pullies, 3.27 rear gears.

98 Mark Viii... bone stock.

(sold) 93 Vic... PI heads, Intake, & cams on NPI block. SCT tune. P-71 exhaust. 1996 P-71 trans (J-modded) and aluminum drave shaft with 11.25 mark 8 converter. COPS ignition. Electronic cooling fan. 3.08 gearing.

(sold) 85 Riviera... 6.6L 403 Olds, 214/224 cam, performer intake, 850 cfm Q-jet, elect fans on 4 core rad, 2-1/2" duals with spintech mufflers, 3.36 final drive, 2400 stall, modified 325-4L trans.
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post #79 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 07:13 PM
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you got 274 to the ground with just a pi swap, tune, and exhaust... with my mods i prob only have 240 to the ground.

-Patrick
9.63@77mph on used street tires
See profile for full list of mods

Pics here.. http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=129479
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post #80 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbird1997 View Post
you got 274 to the ground with just a pi swap, tune, and exhaust... with my mods i prob only have 240 to the ground.
i highly doubt that is SAE corrected power with just PI cams ...maybe with some mild cams....since he said sea level, it could be STD power on a very low DA day
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post #81 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 09:04 PM
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The car does have a ton of bolt ones, and the heads where milled even more so the compression is around 10.7, not to mention the milled heads plus the resulting retard of cam timing from the head milling might account for something? I dont know.

That being said, the tuner said he expected it to make 260 HP, as most with this build do (on his dyno), and 274 was exceptional. Again, these are just numbers. I'm gonna take it to the track thursday night and try to get actual numbers that actually matter in the end, real world numbers. I dont have a clue what it will do but I hope its good.
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96 Mustang GT w/ 5 speed... PI heads, Intake & Cams on a NPI block. SCT dyno tune. Cat'less 2.5" duals with flowmasters, K&N CAI, 70mm Throttle Body, underdrive pullies, 3.27 rear gears.

98 Mark Viii... bone stock.

(sold) 93 Vic... PI heads, Intake, & cams on NPI block. SCT tune. P-71 exhaust. 1996 P-71 trans (J-modded) and aluminum drave shaft with 11.25 mark 8 converter. COPS ignition. Electronic cooling fan. 3.08 gearing.

(sold) 85 Riviera... 6.6L 403 Olds, 214/224 cam, performer intake, 850 cfm Q-jet, elect fans on 4 core rad, 2-1/2" duals with spintech mufflers, 3.36 final drive, 2400 stall, modified 325-4L trans.

Last edited by UpAllNight; 05-02-2010 at 09:19 PM.
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post #82 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 10:42 PM
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screw the 300hp whats it take to get into the 13's in a quarter? im stuck at 16.2 in a tuned 96 4.6 with 3:73's, true duals , and cia. hell even 14's would be nice..
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post #83 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-02-2010, 11:51 PM
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Reaction time, good tires?
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-1996 Pearl White Thunderbird 4.6 Sport 4v with many mods:
Current Best: 13.583 @ 103.74 10/2014.
227hp/241tq measured on calibrated mustang dyno, tested at full vehicle simulation with inertia enabled, no number skewing.
-2001 White Ford F-250 Super Duty 6.8 V10, 4-door, 4x4, Limo Tint, BFG KO2's, Bilstein 7100 Remote Reservoir Race Bypass Shocks, 6" Spring lift, Kenwood Double Din, K&N Intake, FlowMaster Exhaust
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post #84 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-03-2010, 01:08 AM
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Reaction time doesn't matter... the clock starts once you take off, not when the light goes green.

Converter, even taller gears, tires ect will help

-Matt
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post #85 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-03-2010, 07:05 AM
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High HP is always fun but doesnt always get you down the track the fastest. Look at planting the power. Of course like said Tune Gears and converter will get you going. All the bolt ons and horsepower numbers should be second. Has anyone even made 300rwhp on a 94-95 npi motor? Is that even possible without a power adder of some sort?

And LOL at this thread.

04 PI swap,SVO Supercharger 8-9 psi,Alcohol injection,39lbs Cobra injectors,XCal2-Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump,4.10 T-Lok,2003 4R70W built to withstand by RobertP,450hp JMOD,3800 circleD stall,trucool 4739 Trans Cooler,Dynotech 3.5 Driveshaft,70mm T/B,SCP Cold Air Intake,90mm LMAF,JBA headers,Magnaflow Midmount,No cats with 3inch piping,Vogtland 1.6inch drop,Cobra R's and xenon body kit.

Its slow, Really.
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post #86 of 90 (permalink) Old 05-03-2010, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
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Reaction time, good tires?
will this fit?

second to last post. pg 3
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post #87 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 05:44 PM
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I found this thread while searching some other stuff; it's a nice blast from the past.

And to the above poster: No, you can't put a non-IRS diff in our cars without machining side gears, or never, ever, ever disassembling it again.



Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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post #88 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 05:55 PM
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Well you can remove the circlips from the halfshafts if desperate, which beats the "Permanent" alternative. They aren't going anywhere. I cannot imagine going through the trouble of rebuilding and setting up a diff and skimping on the IRS gears though, not like this falls into the category of a quick and dirty swap by any means.

-Matt
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post #89 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 06:30 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Well you can remove the circlips from the halfshafts if desperate, which beats the "Permanent" alternative. They aren't going anywhere. I cannot imagine going through the trouble of rebuilding and setting up a diff and skimping on the IRS gears though, not like this falls into the category of a quick and dirty swap by any means.
There is a post somewhere by Kdanner about people who leave the clips on, with straight gears.


Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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post #90 of 90 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 07:39 PM
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96 Ivory Mark VIII 235k, stock 4.6 32v on coils; New engine at 185k
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