Thoughts on MHS PI H/C and stock bottom end - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thoughts on MHS PI H/C and stock bottom end

Okay, so this spring the bird's getting a built 2004 trans and 3,500 stall 10" TC from Alan, with the expectation that next winter will bring ported heads and cams. I've done some looking around and I'm thinking about going with Nick's stage 2 PI head and stage 2P cams combo, with the modified valves etc. I'm hoping for a fun street toy; 280-290 RWHP is the goal.

The thought is to swap the heads and cams, keep the PI intake, and leave the stock bottom end be (I won't be pulling the engine). I've read some varying info on the durability of the stock bottom end when it comes to RPM though. I understand the stock crank should be fine in such a combo up to 7000 or thereabouts, here the worry is the rods. My question is if I'd be safe with the stock bottom end with such a H/C combo, and what a reasonable RPM limit would be such to keep things in one piece. I'm assuming it should be okay up to 6300-6500, but I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on this topic.

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post #2 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 12:36 PM
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Like you sir, I'm no expert. From what I've heard, you should be fine up to 6,500 RPM np with the bottom end being stock. That's just my opinion, but I have done lots of reading on this, so I think it's a good opinion lol.

I'm sure someone more knowledgable will chime in here

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post #3 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 12:39 PM
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post #4 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Arrighty, good to know.

Now if I may, I read a few older posts of A-train's and it sounds like 24# injectors and a 190lph fuel pump will also be in order. Question here being, should I just go with 30s so I have plenty of additional headroom, or would that be overkill for my application? The car will (hopefully) also be getting ported manifolds, possibly a new plenum and TB later down the road, and I plan to keep the 80mm GT MAF.

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post #5 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 09:37 PM
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so long as your tuner knows what he is doing, you can go with any larger size high impedance injector, within limits of course.
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post #6 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you once again GM. Don Lasota will be my tuner.

... although I wish I could just do it myself without blowing everything up...

-Brandon
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post #7 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 10:29 PM
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Sounds like you got a good plan set up. Let us know how it all goes. Good luck!

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post #8 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-03-2012, 10:12 AM
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Sounds like you got a good plan set up. Let us know how it all goes. Good luck!
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post #9 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 03:38 PM
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Having worked in Ford dealerships for over 20 years and also knowing many techs.
I also worked parts on back counter so I have decades of experience on what fails and what doesnt.

Basing my opinion on the fact that you are doing a street car around 300 h.p.

The bottom end is probably the strongest part of a stock 4.6 Romeo.

I'd leave it alone.

If the motor was out of the vehicle I'd put some new bearings in it.
Freshen it up.......tighten it up a bit.
Of course some people like a gap there for less drag on crank.
In fact I knew a guy that built his motors loose........of course every journal was equal to the other but his engines revved up quicker than any other builder I knew.

so.............cough.......
still
Other than that I wouldn't touch it.

oops cept maybe a new nice oil pump

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post #10 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Yep. On Nick's website the head/cam combo is highlighted as part of a 300 RWHP combo but he and I are both expecting closer to the 280-290 I mentioned above. That's mainly due to the T-bird's auto trans and IRS, plus I'm choosing the stage 2P cams over the stage 2.5 which is a sacrifice of about 5 RWHP for a wider torque curve. Daily driver, after all.

My parts list looks like this so far:

24# injectors
190 lph fuel pump
Braincoating ported/ceramic coated manifolds
Modular Head Shop stage 2 PI heads (Romeo)
Modular Head Shop stage 2P cams
EEC dyno tuning by Don Lasota
3500 stall 10" DirtyDog converter
2004 GT 4R70W built by DirtyDog

And of course all the supporting stuff to go with it all. New timing chains and guides, stamped trigger wheel, rebuild/clean the injectors, new front and rear main seals, etc.


-Brandon
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post #11 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 03:53 PM
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B your injectors come with the fuel rails. All still together Enjoy !

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post #12 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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A nice surprise, Darren.

BTW, Michele said she'd have Preston get in touch with me over the weekend about getting some ported/coated manifolds. I'll ask him to drop you a line as well when he gets in touch with me.

-Brandon
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post #13 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 04:16 PM
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Cool Brandon 'Thank you" for mentioning me , My manifolds now are "mildly " ported going for the full bore

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post #14 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
Yep. On Nick's website the head/cam combo is highlighted as part of a 300 RWHP combo but he and I are both expecting closer to the 280-290 I mentioned above. That's mainly due to the T-bird's auto trans and IRS, plus I'm choosing the stage 2P cams over the stage 2.5 which is a sacrifice of about 5 RWHP for a wider torque curve. Daily driver, after all.

My parts list looks like this so far:

24# injectors
190 lph fuel pump
Braincoating ported/ceramic coated manifolds
Modular Head Shop stage 2 PI heads (Romeo)
Modular Head Shop stage 2P cams
EEC dyno tuning by Don Lasota
3500 stall 10" DirtyDog converter
2004 GT 4R70W built by DirtyDog

And of course all the supporting stuff to go with it all. New timing chains and guides, stamped trigger wheel, rebuild/clean the injectors, new front and rear main seals, etc.

I have a brand new 1 piece crank gear I could sell you if want to ditch the crappy 2 piece crank gear setup .
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post #15 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-05-2012, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Hm, I may take you up on that.... PM sent.

-Brandon
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post #16 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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All righty - I have my 24# injectors here now. They are the older Bosch EV1 style, same as these:



I replaced both O-rings, inlet filter, pintle cap and spacer on all of them.

My question. IIRC the car has EV6s stock on it now (see pic below to confirm me on that), and I know the two use a different style connector. If I had the car available to me now I'd just go out and check for myself to be sure that I can't just use the 24s I have with my stock hardware, but since I don't I'm here. I see myself with two options if connectors are indeed different:
  • Sell the EV1s, buy EV6s
  • Buy pigtails for EV1s and splice them in
With option 1, I would use the money from selling the rebuilt EV1s for the EV6s. I know I'll spend more on a set of EV6s than I did on the EV1s (I got a great deal on the EV1s - thanks Darren!). I would also most likely rebuild the EV6s as well, depending on what I would end up with.

With option 2, I would have to buy 8 pigtails which would offset some of extra cost from upgrading and rebuilding EV6s.

Now, aside from my not having to splice the pigtails, would there be any advantages to using EV6s over EV1s in my application (e.g. better atomization/response time. etc.)?

Here is a shot of the stock injectors currently on the car. Took this pic when I did the PI intake swap 2 years ago.


-Brandon
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post #17 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:45 AM
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Brandon, you're killing me here. Look at the connectors on those two injectors and I think you will find they are EXACTLY THE SAME CONNECTOR.

I know because I have the same injectors you do - both sets! If you don't believe it, take them out and try to plug them in on the car.....

Also, I know that is a popular swap (I was going to do the same thing), but after seeing the difference between the way those skinny Bosch Type III injectors atomize the fuel, and those older Type II (the blue ones) do it - I'm not going to use them.

Let me find the video so you can see what I'm talking about.....

Here is one I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfynoxL2RZI

You can just search for "type iii bosch" on youtube and check out other videos. Type III Bosch really does a nice job of atomizing the fuel while the earlier types look like a squirt gun!

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post #18 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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That's what I was hoping but wasn't sure of based on the pics and reading.

I was thinking about "I could just try plugging my 24s into the car..." but since the car's at the body shop right now, that was out of the question...

Maybe when I get my car back I'll let some of you guys rest for a little while. Until then...

But yes, if there's a definite advantage to using the newer style over the older style, I'll upgrade. I'll be close to the upper limit of 24s, so they need to do their job well.

-Brandon
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post #19 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
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That's what I was hoping but wasn't sure of based on the pics and reading.

I was thinking about "I could just try plugging my 24s into the car..." but since the car's at the body shop right now, that was out of the question...

Maybe when I get my car back I'll let some of you guys rest for a little while. Until then...

But yes, if there's a definite advantage to using the newer style over the older style, I'll upgrade. I'll be close to the upper limit of 24s, so they need to do their job well.
Well, the only problems is the older styles will hurt mileage a little and increase wear on the engine because raw fuel rinses the oil from the sides of the cylinders faster than well atomized fuel.

Of course, we're talking long time longevity, so it depends on how long you plan on keeping the car (or how long before you want to rebuild it again).

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post #20 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
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Well, the only problems is the older styles will hurt mileage a little and increase wear on the engine because raw fuel rinses the oil from the sides of the cylinders faster than well atomized fuel.
Not only that, better atomized fuel increases HP and fuel economy, hence D.I. in newer vehicles with necessary ultra-high fuel pressures. Partly the reason I'm gonna set up my fuel system to push ~70psi.
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post #21 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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I was looking at these, but I can't tell if they use the new style connector or not (looks like they do based on part number searches): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220928705220

But then I found these, which look like they're the right style connector. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280805587593

They look to be the 24# equivalent to the injectors currently on the car, the gen 3s which give good atomization.

-Brandon
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post #22 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 04:16 PM
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Not only that, better atomized fuel increases HP and fuel economy, hence D.I. in newer vehicles with necessary ultra-high fuel pressures. Partly the reason I'm gonna set up my fuel system to push ~70psi.
Are you going to use a model for the flow, or are you going to measure it?

I used ethanol to do a flow measurement in #/hr/duty cycle; it's fairly non-linear in spots... even at stock pressure.

That will be interesting, gm, for sure!

BTW, are the orange 19# injectors the type III?

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post #23 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
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I was looking at these, but I can't tell if they use the new style connector or not (looks like they do based on part number searches): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220928705220

But then I found these, which look like they're the right style connector. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280805587593

They look to be the 24# equivalent to the injectors currently on the car, the gen 3s which give good atomization.
That first set you listed is the different connector. The second set you listed, I would get a part number from the seller cause he says that's a "file photo" and not the particular set you will receive. Plus, I've never seen a 5.0L (old 5.0) that came with 24# injectors.....

Just my .02, hope it helps.

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post #24 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 08:39 PM
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Dont get any of that ebay crap. Lots of chinese counterfeits are being sold with oem markings to fool people. Or at least be very very careful who you buy from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Are you going to use a model for the flow, or are you going to measure it?

I used ethanol to do a flow measurement in #/hr/duty cycle; it's fairly non-linear in spots... even at stock pressure.

That will be interesting, gm, for sure!

BTW, are the orange 19# injectors the type III?
I've been told that I can use the datasheet for Ford Racing 39#/hr injectors for my Cobra 39#ers. It has the multipliers for all the injector data for up to 60psi, so I'll just extrapolate it for another 10psi. If that doesn't work, I'll simply stick with 60psi. Not only that, I'm gonna time the injector delay table to inject all the fuel right when the intake port velocity is greatest, at any given load/rpm. At 8k, I think the intake port peaks at mach
0.48 or so (350mph)

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post #25 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Dont get any of that ebay crap. Lots of chinese counterfeits are being sold with oem markings to fool people. Or at least be very very careful who you buy from.
Interesting. I'll just bide my time and wait for a good set to turn up here on the forums.

Any news on that crank gear GM?

-Brandon
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post #26 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 02:26 AM
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Interesting. I'll just bide my time and wait for a good set to turn up here on the forums.

Any news on that crank gear GM?
your best bet for a good price on injectors is used. From a mustang owner or MMR. I know MMR has a bad rap for some of their products, but they shelve a lot of brand new take-offs from cars they work on and sell them at really good prices. The rebuild KIT is only $20 and you can flush them out yourself if you wanna clean them via this youtube video





for the crank gear, just send me $22 and its yours including shipping. I haven't checked but I believe its around $35 brand new.
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post #27 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 10:15 AM
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A little late but just figured I would throw this out. Your RPM limit should be be between 6500 and 6700. I say this because any higher and your killing your acceleration and any lower and you are doing the same. Your shift points will be in that range I am guessing for optimum acceleration. Just remember this, the lower you shift, the slower you go, but the longer your engine will last. Me personally, I wouldn't hesitate to shift at 6600 all day long. Any higher and I would start saving for a shortblock.

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post #28 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 11:04 AM
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Interesting. I'll just bide my time and wait for a good set to turn up here on the forums.

Any news on that crank gear GM?
Brandon, if you're gonna pay $100 for a set of used injectors, you may want to consider spending $220 for a brand new set of 30# from Jegs:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford%20Racing/...0002/-1?CT=999

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post #29 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 12:12 PM
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$100 difference lol....oh well, it's his money. I'll stick with my used cobra 39 lb/hr blue giants I got for $100
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post #30 of 266 (permalink) Old 01-15-2012, 01:16 PM
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$100 difference lol....oh well, it's his money. I'll stick with my used cobra 39 lb/hr blue giants I got for $100
I said, "...may..." smart-butt.

Just trying to show all the options.....

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