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post #91 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-23-2013, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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post #92 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-24-2013, 12:04 AM
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And your engine may rev as high as 10k?

Ah, okay, deep stage hole shot at 7,500 then?

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post #93 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-24-2013, 12:15 AM
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I have a MK 8 oil pan on my 4.6.9,5.1, 5.3.
Get the cams turning.
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post #94 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-24-2013, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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post #95 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-24-2013, 12:30 AM
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That's the spirit. 80+% of race engine building is based on empirical structure.
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post #96 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-24-2013, 10:03 AM
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GM;

freaking awesome build thread. Dad and I did the same for a 911 3.0l. Most of what you have done is REQUIRED to rebuild an older oil/air cooled motor. (to set the cams a dial gauge is required) Though I have to say, I dont think we went to the point of calculating deviation for weights etc...

we got a whopping 210 rwhp out of it though... Even with Webber Cams, higher COMP, big ass oil pump, and some home done porting/polishing. Fuel is our issue right now. And the lack of a redline. (you can hear the valves float at 8k rpm...) Mechanical Fuel Injection from the 80's leaves a lot to be desired... (that's ~75 hp more than the original Euro Motor that was in there.)

When you cry about your motor's cost. Realize we spend probably the same for that 210 rwhp... Nearly every bolt is a TTY in a Porsche of that vintage. rebuild price is around 6k. with go fast goodies looking at around 12k in parts... (pots and pistons are sold as a matched set by Mahle, Nicosil coating included.) No rehoneing allowed.

It's also the fourth motor in the car. (first one cracked a factory piston, second had bad machining on the connecting rod wrist pin and after 10k miles the bearing turned at 6k rpm...; third the fancy dancy upgraded oil pump self grenaded (defect) leaving some pretty scars all over the cams...)

Next motor will be a 3.8 probably. (Car will be in my hands by the time it needs a new motor...)
2600 lbs driver included ...
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post #97 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Just realized I missed a few pics of the trap door, and final clearance checks installed with the dummy block.




















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post #98 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-26-2013, 06:18 PM
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Nice construction!


7 quarts; that should help any starvation problems.

I'd tack a strap across the big opening, such that the trapdoor can't possibly fit thru the opening, in any possible configuration.

I know it can't break, but...

Murphy hates me, so I'm cautious. I always suspect all moving parts to fail in the most damaging fashion.


On another note:

Have you ever thought about how much of our oil ends up in our heads?

And how foamy it is in the passenger head?

I've been considering extending the passenger head forward oil drain passage up almost to the top of the valve cover, to try to keep ascending air out of the descending oil.

Two passages filled with oil, not competing with reverse air flow should be better flow overall... and no foam for the intake.

What do you think, GM?

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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Last edited by Grog6; 03-26-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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post #99 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-27-2013, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Nice construction!


7 quarts; that should help any starvation problems.

I'd tack a strap across the big opening, such that the trapdoor can't possibly fit thru the opening, in any possible configuration.

I know it can't break, but...

Murphy hates me, so I'm cautious. I always suspect all moving parts to fail in the most damaging fashion.


On another note:

Have you ever thought about how much of our oil ends up in our heads?

And how foamy it is in the passenger head?

I've been considering extending the passenger head forward oil drain passage up almost to the top of the valve cover, to try to keep ascending air out of the descending oil.

Two passages filled with oil, not competing with reverse air flow should be better flow overall... and no foam for the intake.

What do you think, GM?
I see what you mean about the strap in front of the trap door---creating a situation kinda like a door that is too long to fit through a 90° turn in a hallway. I suspect that the welds/tacks will be fine in holding everything in place---it would take some serious Gs on a turn to cause steel tacks/welds to fly apart from inertia alone.

I see what you mean about assisting the blow-by gasses with transforming one oil drainback into an upward gaseous drainder-up'er, lol. But I don't see how that is necessary seeing as how the entire crankcase is vented to the front of the engine, and then to the top of the cylinder heads via the timing cover/valve cover. There is more than enough area to prevent having to commandeer one of the oil drainbacks to change it's duties--especially when the oil-drain backs are small enough as it is.
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post #100 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:29 PM
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But I don't see how that is necessary seeing as how the entire crankcase is vented to the front of the engine, and then to the top of the cylinder heads via the timing cover/valve cover.
Wow; I completely missed that.

So why do these engines foam the pass side, and barf oil into the manifold sometimes?

I assumed it was updraft thru the same holes... Maybe extra oil riding the chain on that side?

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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post #101 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 06:50 PM
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Seems like drainback extensions would help that issue.

-Matt
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post #102 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Wow; I completely missed that.

So why do these engines foam the pass side, and barf oil into the manifold sometimes?

I assumed it was updraft thru the same holes... Maybe extra oil riding the chain on that side?
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Seems like drainback extensions would help that issue.
The issue is (as I'm told) has to do with windage due to the direction the crankshaft rotates. The crankshaft's rotation direction causes turbulence right around the vicinity of the drainback holes (because the counterweights are slinging oil, and dragging whatever air/blow-by gases are around), yet on one side these supposed disturbances aid flow (driver's side), and on the other side they hinder flow (pass. side)




This is exactly why I'm using the Livernois oil drainback kit in conjunction with their windage tray.

This [hopefully] aided down-pouring of oil back to the pan, in conjunction with my one-of-a-kind oil pan, will [hopefully] always have me one step ahead of the game when spinning Zod-like RPMs.
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post #103 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 11:09 PM
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I still need to figure out how to make rectangular drainback extensions for my WAP motor. I wish I hadn't slacked off on the one I had in my basement for two years

-Matt
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post #104 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-28-2013, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I still need to figure out how to make rectangular drainback extensions for my WAP motor. I wish I hadn't slacked off on the one I had in my basement for two years
the drainbacks on the waps extend down to the pan rail. Pretty low, but they could be lower I suppose.

TIG works great for welding on aluminum.
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post #105 of 145 (permalink) Old 03-29-2013, 10:59 AM
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This is exactly why I'm using the Livernois oil drainback kit in conjunction with their windage tray.
Nice info!

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/...nback-Kit.html

This is just the opposite of what I was thinking; my idea would not have helped at all.

I'll be ordering one of these, and the tray.

Is the Livernois tray as good as the Canton tray? Their new design is allegedly very good...

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.

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post #106 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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Short update.

  • I've been degree'ing since sometime late last year (yes Jim, your tools are getting used to hell and back!).
  • Aside from having to collect mountains of data due to my not-so-off-the-shelf parts (block decked, heads decked, custom pistons, valve notches, oversized valves), I noticed that my measurements, when repeated, were off just a little bit. I could never get the intake lobe in the same exact place I wanted it to be
  • if you know me, I ain't the type that says "well it's close enough, so I'll just run with it.". No sir-eee-bob.


I had gotten the degree'ing to within ~0.4° after I had found out that my cams were not going to be degree'd to the recommended intake lobe centerline (due to PTV clearances), which I was happy with considering I had set my goal to degree the left and right banks to within 0.2° of each other. But it took A LOT of trials to get that "lucky" 0.4° to be honest.

But then I purposely tore off the heads, repeated everything and I was off again! GRRR! , leading me to ask "why?". My pointer could have moved, but it hadn't. The degree wheel said 0° at piston #1 TDC, and this was with my new dial indicator that reads down to 0.0001", instead of the traditional 0.001" dial indicator, and the pointer tip was ground down to a needle point! (sorry Jim, I owe you a new wire pointer! )

Then, it dawned on me.
  • I had not realized the flaw in my method that generated the errors was inclusive of the one main defect of the modular OHC timing system.
  • The main area of slop leading to varying degrees of incorrect cam timing using the stock cam gears, are the cam gears themselves.
  • Of course the slop could be attributed to tolerances in the keyway in the camshaft snout where the cam gear slides onto, but that is neither here nor there----point is, that "junction" is why cams are off from where they are supposed to be in the first place.
  • Fast Freddie Flash-back:


So I set out to find out exactly how much slop there was to see if it corresponded to my measurements.

I set up the dial indicator as "tangent" to the cam gear teeth as possible. This is because on a small enough scale, like what we are dealing with, circular motion can be very closely approximated by linear motion; in this case, rotational slop of the cam gear is translated into the linear motion of the dial indicator plunger/tip.

This is with the slop removed "counterclockwise":


With the slop removed "clockwise":




The Cloyes cam gear center portion, just like any other cam gear, can slide around, causing the cam gear teeth to shift approximately ~ 0.026". What does this mean in terms of degree-variation at the camshaft where it matters?

Those of you good with math can see how I calculated it to be approximately ~2°! GRRR! I was so mad for not having realized it sooner! Sure enough, after looking through all my written data from countless degree'ing trials, the ICL was always falling somewhere in between, id: 107 ≤ ICL ≤ 109. 109-107= 2°. Bingo! I had not tightened down the center portion of the Cloyes adjustable cam gears in the same precise orientation each time I did a degree trial. So each time I tried to use the main feature of the Hex-a-just system to advance/retard the cam timing, the slop sometimes counteracted my efforts.

There you have it. Yet another chapter that will hopefully make that 1 extra HP to create some major ownage against racers everywhere.

Note: I checked the TFS adjustable crank gears. There is no where near as much slop with these on the crank as there is at the cam gears. With the cam gears pressed onto the crank snout by hand, there was less than 0.002" of slop on one of them---the other was even less. At the cam gear, that kind of slop translates into <0.2° in change of cam timing. So what I plan to do, is to weld the one does does have that tiny slop, with the slop taken out before I clamp them together for the tack welding. This will eliminate the crank/crank gear junction generated slop altogether.

Final Degree centerlines:

Right Bank: 109.25°
Left Bank: 109.35°

Less than 2/10 of a degree difference, just as I had set out to accomplish.

Last edited by guitar maestro; 06-12-2013 at 08:42 PM.
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post #107 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-12-2013, 08:50 PM
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Nice catch. Your attention to detail boarders on the criminally insane!

... Reminds me of this guy...


Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
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See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 06-12-2013 at 08:54 PM. Reason: Fix stoopid grammar error. :)
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post #108 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 09:18 PM
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I got about halfway through readin all that and then my head exploded. However my headless body is grateful you are finding the tools useful and they are working for you. Don't worry about the pointer, it's a glorified piece of coathanger, so I'm not all that concerned. Besides the next time I use them will be on my dinosaur 427 so no need for any major precision on that engine, I'll make 600hp by accident. Looking good though, maybe one day it'll actually be in the car and running!!

Ban low performance driver's, not high performance cars.

"Any idiot can make a Mustang fast, but it takes a special kind of idiot to make a Thunderbird fast."
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post #109 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-13-2013, 09:33 PM
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My favorite quote from all that.
"There you have it. Yet another chapter that will hopefully make that 1 extra HP to create some major ownage against racers everywhere.".

Jason H.
Mods:
Exterior- Paint, grill, trim, SHO wheels
Power train- 4.6 cat back w/ muffler delete 2"I.D. tips , Taylor Pro Series plug wires, intake silencer delete

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post #110 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 01:02 AM
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Ummm...I get why, but why did you do it that way? Why not set your ICL and go at it backwards measuring from the head and then install and check again? That would be the easy way anyway...

SWS


































Please tell me you got the humor in that.

Soon to have some MHS parts, cams, 'luminum block, lower compression, ported heads, autorotor, and need to make long tubes. I have almost all the stuff and need some #42-50s a bypass valve, and maybe a few other things.
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post #111 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-14-2013, 01:08 AM Thread Starter
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post #112 of 145 (permalink) Old 07-20-2013, 07:46 PM
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cant wait to start blueprinting my npi build, awesome thread!
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post #113 of 145 (permalink) Old 07-20-2013, 08:05 PM
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cant wait to start blueprinting my npi build, awesome thread!
Why would you build an NPI instead of a PI? It's like a step in the wrong direction if improved performance is desired hence "PI".

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Power train- 4.6 cat back w/ muffler delete 2"I.D. tips , Taylor Pro Series plug wires, intake silencer delete

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post #114 of 145 (permalink) Old 07-20-2013, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
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Why would you build an NPI instead of a PI? It's like a step in the wrong direction if improved performance is desired hence "PI".
The best Ford 2V modular heads casted were actually a non-PI design. Go figure...
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post #115 of 145 (permalink) Old 07-21-2013, 07:41 AM
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Thanks for the knowledge I'm still easing out of the Windsor SBF days lol.

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Exterior- Paint, grill, trim, SHO wheels
Power train- 4.6 cat back w/ muffler delete 2"I.D. tips , Taylor Pro Series plug wires, intake silencer delete

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post #116 of 145 (permalink) Old 07-22-2013, 10:36 AM
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okay, this dual cam ohv, has my head hurting now, LOL,. sb chevy. have a mark here, and one here, degree wheel, centered.. and voila. i am glad i will just be following directions, when i do my head/cam/intake swap, LOL. but awesome write-up!!!

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PI Intake, with GT Plenum with aluminum spacer, GT Throttle Body, also with aluminum spacer
CAI,
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post #117 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 07:48 PM
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I think this has been a well-documented and photographed build. It's been nearly a year since there has been any activity in the thead.

GM, can you advise of the status of the project?
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post #118 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rusty View Post
I think this has been a well-documented and photographed build. It's been nearly a year since there has been any activity in the thead.

GM, can you advise of the status of the project?
Don't hold your breath Dusty ... this one's gonna take a while ...

We've been asking the same question for years.


Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #119 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 08:18 PM
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You should have taken the title of the thread more seriously...

-Brandon
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post #120 of 145 (permalink) Old 06-17-2014, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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You should have taken the title of the thread more seriously...
lol

I've been riding around in this beast for a while now, I just didn't want to tell anybody.














































































Just kidding, hehe. Unfortunately, work takes precedence for much of the year, as it leaves me with very little free time to work on this, usually only one or half a day a week. Only in summer do I really get to advance much but even then I always end up modifying something else on the car lol. You also have to keep in mind, this is not just an engine build. The engine has been built for while now..its neatly tucked away in the corner of what used to be a walk-in closet, lol. This is a whole-car build. From brakes, to steering, to suspension, to fuel delivery, fixing moonroof, door hinges, etc.

The saga will continue, but it will finish.
guitar maestro is offline  
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