My First Mod: PI Intake and a Few More Little Things - Page 8 - TCCoA Forums

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post #211 of 261 (permalink) Old 02-23-2016, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

So, another question then. Since I let the RTV set on the passenger head, the same thing I've been doing for the driver side head, should I remove that RTV and re-apply it? It hasn't been the problematic side, but seeing as I did it wrong, should I just go ahead and redo it anyways? I'm thinking yes, but I'd like to hear the consensus on this first.

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post #212 of 261 (permalink) Old 02-23-2016, 02:50 PM
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IIRC the only area that needs RTV is at the front passenger coolant passage. The other passageways line up with the PI gaskets and the rear driver's side passageway isn't used.

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post #213 of 261 (permalink) Old 02-23-2016, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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Even if the driver rear passageway doesn't have a direct flow from one side to the engine to the other, it still has the same "bean" shape as the front passenger passageway requiring the RTV to be placed. It has been a continuous problem area for me (albeit because of user error) for finishing up the engine. Here in this picture, you can see a slight green hue just to the right of the IM bolt in that tiny passageway before it drops off to the back of the engine.



On a separate note, I'm curious to know if the hole on here is threaded or not. When I removed the NPI coolant tube, there was a similar flange being held in place to the driver side head by a plastic rivet. If the hole where the flange sits on is threaded, I'd like to know what size / thread bolt would go to it so I can secure it with a bolt instead of a plastic rivet.



Oh, and one more question. What and where does this plug go to? I've heard lots of different things from coolant reservoir tank, to ABS test plug, to nothing. If anyone has any clarification on that, that'd be great!


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post #214 of 261 (permalink) Old 02-23-2016, 05:11 PM
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Wait you're not supposed to smear it on with your bare fingers and sniff the tube? Apparently I've been using RTV wrong all this time!
That procedure is for the toluene-based adhesive that goes with tire patches, lol.

RTV goes not give off anything you want to inhale, trust me; not even as safe as glue.
That only rots your brain.



I use gloves so I can smear the rtv all over in an even layer.

I've always just basically glued the intake manifolds I've done back on, just because of crap like CDsDontBurn is going thru.


Black RTV on the head surface, add to manifold surface, place gasket on head, add manifold, TTS. (torque to spec)

I try to do this early in the day; tighten it up, close the hood 'till tomarry. (Let RTV dry overnight)

The next day at about the same time, One at a Time, loosen 1/4 turn, and retorque to spec, every intake manifold bolt. This is important!

I have found wide variation in the torque on these bolts, after everything was dry and settled; so make sure by redoing them.

I always expect it to change; that torque change may have nothing to do with the "glued in" thing at all, and be contributing to this problem.

I noticed that back when I was running the "hard shifting" tranny, all the bolts on the drivers' side of the intake were loose one day while I was changing plugs and wires.

IDK WTF causes that; locktite red instead of anti-sieze cured it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
Even if the driver rear passageway doesn't have a direct flow from one side to the engine to the other, it still has the same "bean" shape as the front passenger passageway requiring the RTV to be placed. It has been a continuous problem area for me (albeit because of user error) for finishing up the engine. Here in this picture, you can see a slight green hue just to the right of the IM bolt in that tiny passageway before it drops off to the back of the engine.
Glue that fucker down!

While you're there, you might consider doing the "crack pipe or Apten" cooling mod, as there is no flow out the back of the head due to the blocked hole you mention. Some have threaded and tapped the manifold right here to do the cooling mod; search, there's info.

This piece goes in the back of the head:


Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
On a separate note, I'm curious to know if the hole on here is threaded or not. When I removed the NPI coolant tube, there was a similar flange being held in place to the driver side head by a plastic rivet. If the hole where the flange sits on is threaded, I'd like to know what size / thread bolt would go to it so I can secure it with a bolt instead of a plastic rivet.
IIRC those are 6mm. If I'm wrong they're 8mm. ~15-20mm long.

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Oh, and one more question. What and where does this plug go to? I've heard lots of different things from coolant reservoir tank, to ABS test plug, to nothing. If anyone has any clarification on that, that'd be great!
That's to the coolant reservoir level sensor. If you have the "infocenter" it lights up when it's low.

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post #215 of 261 (permalink) Old 02-23-2016, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Even if the driver rear passageway doesn't have a direct flow from one side to the engine to the other, it still has the same "bean" shape as the front passenger passageway requiring the RTV to be placed. It has been a continuous problem area for me (albeit because of user error) for finishing up the engine. Here in this picture, you can see a slight green hue just to the right of the IM bolt in that tiny passageway before it drops off to the back of the engine.
Glue that fucker down!

While you're there, you might consider doing the "crack pipe or Apten" cooling mod, as there is no flow out the back of the head due to the blocked hole you mention. Some have threaded and tapped the manifold right here to do the cooling mod; search, there's info.

This piece goes in the back of the head:
http://forums.tccoa.com/vbpgimage.ph...6&d=1306690148
Maybe when I build the next engine in a few years time. It seems like a relatively easy mod, but having the engine out will make it tons easier to do.

But what am I gluing to what?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
On a separate note, I'm curious to know if the hole on here is threaded or not. When I removed the NPI coolant tube, there was a similar flange being held in place to the driver side head by a plastic rivet. If the hole where the flange sits on is threaded, I'd like to know what size / thread bolt would go to it so I can secure it with a bolt instead of a plastic rivet.
IIRC those are 6mm. If I'm wrong they're 8mm. ~15-20mm long.
So that should be an 6-15 (or 8-15) bolt then? Is that how metric bolts are measured?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
Oh, and one more question. What and where does this plug go to? I've heard lots of different things from coolant reservoir tank, to ABS test plug, to nothing. If anyone has any clarification on that, that'd be great!
That's to the coolant reservoir level sensor. If you have the "infocenter" it lights up when it's low.
Yes, mine does have a "low coolant" light on the dash. Is this what you mean by "infocenter"? If you say it plugs into the coolant reservoir, it doesn't. That is of course unless there are two harnesses that plug into the reservoir and I'm not seeing the second one. I'll double check again, but I remember seeing a pigtail plugged in to the coolant reservoir already.
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post #216 of 261 (permalink) Old 02-24-2016, 06:57 PM
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...But what am I gluing to what?



So that should be an 6-15 (or 8-15) bolt then? Is that how metric bolts are measured?



Yes, mine does have a "low coolant" light on the dash. Is this what you mean by "infocenter"? If you say it plugs into the coolant reservoir, it doesn't. That is of course unless there are two harnesses that plug into the reservoir and I'm not seeing the second one. I'll double check again, but I remember seeing a pigtail plugged in to the coolant reservoir already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I've always just basically glued the intake manifolds I've done back on, just because of crap like CDsDontBurn is going thru.


Black RTV on the head surface, add to manifold surface, place gasket on head, add manifold, TTS. (torque to spec)

I try to do this early in the day; tighten it up, close the hood 'till tomarry. (Let RTV dry overnight)

The next day at about the same time, One at a Time, loosen 1/4 turn, and retorque to spec, every intake manifold bolt. This is important!

I have found wide variation in the torque on these bolts, after everything was dry and settled; so make sure by redoing them.

I always expect it to change; that torque change may have nothing to do with the "glued in" thing at all, and be contributing to this problem.
...

"IIRC those are 6mm. If I'm wrong they're 8mm. ~15-20mm long."

All our stuff is fine thread, which on the 6mm and 8mm bolts is 1.25mm.
So, it would be a 6mmx1.25mmx25mm, or 8mm...


"That's to the coolant reservoir level sensor. If you have the "infocenter" it lights up when it's low. "

Not sure WTF then; tell me what color wires it has, and I'll tell you what it is.

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post #217 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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What do you guys think of these rotors? Are they worth the money, or should I just stick with Motorcraft blanks or other OE blanks? I'd be going with Duralast Gold pads most likely.

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post #218 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 11:26 AM
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Eh, I say avoid drilled/slotted rotors unless you're doing a full race modification and intend to use the car that way. Otherwise all they'll do is eat your pads that much faster.

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post #219 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 11:45 AM
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That and they don't improve braking performance whatsoever.

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post #220 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 12:02 PM
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What do you guys think of these rotors? Are they worth the money, or should I just stick with Motorcraft blanks or other OE blanks? I'd be going with Duralast Gold pads most likely.

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I'm getting some when I get my 13" rotors, but not for "better" performance, mostly just so they look cool.

I drive the car little enough that I can live with increased pad wear.
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post #221 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Eh, I say avoid drilled/slotted rotors unless you're doing a full race modification and intend to use the car that way. Otherwise all they'll do is eat your pads that much faster.
I do, but not anytime soon.

And I've heard that they eat pads faster, but how much faster? If a pad is intended for 60k miles, but these rotors kill 10k miles of use, I'm still fine with a set of pads having had only 50k miles. If the same set of 60k pads only got 30k miles, then yea, I'd avoid them.

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That and they don't improve braking performance whatsoever.
Does braking performance stay at least on par to OEM performance? If so, I'd get them for the "cool" factor like Woodman said.
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post #222 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 01:30 PM
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Ricer factor*

They don't have as much surface area as solid rotors, so yes there's a reduction but not really noticeable. What is noticeable though is every time you touch the brake pedal it will sound like you have baseball cards in the spokes lol
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post #223 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Ricer factor*

They don't have as much surface area as solid rotors, so yes there's a reduction but not really noticeable. What is noticeable though is every time you touch the brake pedal it will sound like you have baseball cards in the spokes lol
LOL!! To each their own. I think they're cool looking.

Ideally, I'd get slotted rotors front and back, but RA only has these or blanks.

The noise, I can deal with, and if braking performance impact is minimal at worst, I don't think it's much of an issue.
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post #224 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 02:04 PM
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Ricer factor*

They don't have as much surface area as solid rotors, so yes there's a reduction but not really noticeable. What is noticeable though is every time you touch the brake pedal it will sound like you have baseball cards in the spokes lol
Eh, they look nice, and making it look nice is part of modding it. It's not like I'm putting a coffee can sized exhaust tip on or a Superbird style wing.

Functionally wise, for standard street use standard, flat metal rotors are "best". If you get into performance driving, slotted offer the best overall braking capacity due to "biting" into the pad better and giving built up gasses an opportunity to escape through the slot. But, it costs you a little more pad wear. I can't say that anyone's done any real study as to exactly how much more wear, so when I get mine I'll let you know.

Drilled rotors are best for venting gasses/water/heat. If you live in a very wet, rainy environment, they "could" give you a little advantage braking, but again, they are mostly intended for track use.

Drilled/slotted rotors are great for the cool factor, have all the advantages/disadvantages of drilled and slotted rotors, along with the added detriment of possibility of cracking, but my feeling is that even though I already have Mustang GT PBR's on my car, going up to 13" rotors with good carbon ceramic pads I'll gain enough additional braking power to overwhelm any potential issues with them being drilled/slotted.

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post #225 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 02:17 PM
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LOL!! To each their own. I think they're cool looking.

Ideally, I'd get slotted rotors front and back, but RA only has these or blanks.

The noise, I can deal with, and if braking performance impact is minimal at worst, I don't think it's much of an issue.

Realistically you won't notice any lack of rotor material. They're designed to leave as much area under the pad as possible, and when paired with good performance oriented pads will make a big difference.
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From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems pad life is reduced by minimal amounts, 10k less life expectancy in a worst case scenario is what I'm coming to understand.

Like I said in my identical post in the FB page, I'd much prefer slotted only, but it's either these or blanks. If I can find slotted only, I'd get them.
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post #227 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 03:15 PM
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From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems pad life is reduced by minimal amounts, 10k less life expectancy in a worst case scenario is what I'm coming to understand.

Like I said in my identical post in the FB page, I'd much prefer slotted only, but it's either these or blanks. If I can find slotted only, I'd get them.
If you get the Mustang Cobra calipers and 13" rotors, and extend the lug nut holes 1/8" toward the hub, they will slide right on your Thunderbird hubs fine, and because they are hub centric on the front, you can get slotted only. BUT, getting slotted only for the rear is a different situation. You could get the conversion kit to relocate your stock rear calipers allowing you to use the larger diameter Cobra rear rotors, but you'd need a hub centric ring to let them sit properly.

On mine, I'm just getting cobra front rotors, and matching drilled/slotted rear thunderbird rotors along with power stop pads.
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Eh, they look nice, and making it look nice is part of modding it. It's not like I'm putting a coffee can sized exhaust tip on or a Superbird style wing.

Functionally wise, for standard street use standard, flat metal rotors are "best". If you get into performance driving, slotted offer the best overall braking capacity due to "biting" into the pad better and giving built up gasses an opportunity to escape through the slot. But, it costs you a little more pad wear. I can't say that anyone's done any real study as to exactly how much more wear, so when I get mine I'll let you know.

Drilled rotors are best for venting gasses/water/heat. If you live in a very wet, rainy environment, they "could" give you a little advantage braking, but again, they are mostly intended for track use.

Drilled/slotted rotors are great for the cool factor, have all the advantages/disadvantages of drilled and slotted rotors, along with the added detriment of possibility of cracking, but my feeling is that even though I already have Mustang GT PBR's on my car, going up to 13" rotors with good carbon ceramic pads I'll gain enough additional braking power to overwhelm any potential issues with them being drilled/slotted.
1) Pad friction technology has progressed pretty dramatically since they first started drilling rotors and for the most part, the outgassing that drilled rotors was supposed to help is no longer an issue.

2) I would purchase a good quality solid rotor -- ex: Brembo #27043 and spend your extra pennies on a high quality pad.

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1) Pad friction technology has progressed pretty dramatically since they first started drilling rotors and for the most part, the outgassing that drilled rotors was supposed to help is no longer an issue.

2) I would purchase a good quality solid rotor -- ex: Brembo #27043 and spend your extra pennies on a high quality pad.
Based on what you and everyone else here is saying, and from everything else I've read elsewhere, drilled rotors are for nothing more than just looks where the only real improvement will be on the track.

However, I'm starting to find that slotted rotors are really a better option for DD performance, however there will be a sacrifice in pad life expectancy as slotted rotors have extra "bite" to them. That said, I'm starting to desire slotted rotors.

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post #230 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 06:59 PM
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I bought a set of the Powerstop PBR's and drilled slotted rotors.

They do have a bit of pulsation under heavy braking, but you won't be doing a lot of that; they stop very well with light pressure, lol.

Using them like the stock brakes just locks the wheels.

Add the Stainless lines from spinning wheels SC and you will love them.

I'd replace the lines at the calipers anyway if you haven't already; they're cheap as stock replacement items, or RA.
They're 20 years old, and are rubber full of brake fluid; need I say more?

I can't feel the rotors in the back, thus my obsession with the brake valves.
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post #231 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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I bought a set of the Powerstop PBR's and drilled slotted rotors.

They do have a bit of pulsation under heavy braking, but you won't be doing a lot of that; they stop very well with light pressure, lol.

Using them like the stock brakes just locks the wheels.

Add the Stainless lines from spinning wheels SC and you will love them.

I'd replace the lines at the calipers anyway if you haven't already; they're cheap as stock replacement items, or RA.
They're 20 years old, and are rubber full of brake fluid; need I say more?

I can't feel the rotors in the back, thus my obsession with the brake valves.
Moar mods!!!

I do know the benefits of going with SS brake lines. I've been wanting a set for some time, but never really researched them, their costs, or anything else. If it's just an extra $50 or so, then I'm sure I can squeeze that into my budget . I guess right now would be an opportune time for me to start doing that so I can do some bulk purchasing over at RA.

When I get the PBR brakes later on, the SS lines will only add further benefit my stopping performance .

And you basically bought the PBR version of this kit, right?

http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo....140613&jsn=704
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post #232 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 08:58 PM
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Moar mods!!!

I do know the benefits of going with SS brake lines. I've been wanting a set for some time, but never really researched them, their costs, or anything else. If it's just an extra $50 or so, then I'm sure I can squeeze that into my budget . I guess right now would be an opportune time for me to start doing that so I can do some bulk purchasing over at RA.

When I get the PBR brakes later on, the SS lines will only add further benefit my stopping performance .

And you basically bought the PBR version of this kit, right?

More Information for POWER STOP K1318
They're $145, but that's not bad at all. I'm going to do them when I do my big brakes.
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post #233 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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I'm looking at the rotor construction, and I don't see how the rotor itself secures to the hub of car. In my Honda, both front and rear discs are secured to the hub via a locking screw. I don't see that at all for these rotors for the T-Bird.

Not my Honda, but just to show what I mean if I have terminology wrong.


'97 Bird, "Pearl": L/R 2.5in Magnaflow Hi-Flow CATs | PI Intake & PI Cams | Suspension Rebuild

'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

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post #234 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 09:34 PM
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I'm looking at the rotor construction, and I don't see how the rotor itself secures to the hub of car. In my Honda, both front and rear discs are secured to the hub via a locking screw. I don't see that at all for these rotors for the T-Bird.

Not my Honda, but just to show what I mean if I have terminology wrong.

The rotors are hub centric, like the wheels. The hub locates the rotor, then the lug nuts (and the wheel) secure it to the hub. You don't need a locking screw to keep it tight, never understood why they did that. American cars generally don't do that.

What exactly is under there, just a couple of screw holes in the hub assembly?

I'd imagine you could leave those screws out and let the lug nuts hold it on like most other cars do.
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post #235 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 09:49 PM Thread Starter
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So basically, just "set it and forget it"? The rotors are "locked" in place by the pressure added to it by the tightening of the wheel in place?

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post #236 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 09:59 PM
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So basically, just "set it and forget it"? The rotors are "locked" in place by the pressure added to it by the tightening of the wheel in place?
Yup.

Think about it for a minute. They're located by five lug nuts that are part of the hub. So they can't clock left or right, the lug nuts hold them far more than those little set screws do. Then when the wheel goes on and the lug nuts are tightened up properly, it can't walk back and forth either. Plus the caliper itself is locking it in place.

I'm sure there's a reason that Honda has them, I just don't know what it is.
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post #237 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 10:04 PM
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I did a little bit of googling and the primary purpose is to make it easier to install the calipers and wheels on the assembly line, keep everything aligned. Once the wheel is on, they serve no real purpose.

I was helping a friend do his rear brakes on an Explorer a few weeks ago, and he had lock washers on one lug (the spin on type, basically a very, very thin nut) to secure the rotors. Not sure if that was from the factory, but it serves no functional purpose to retaining the rotor once the wheels and calipers are installed.
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post #238 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Yup.

Think about it for a minute. They're located by five lug nuts that are part of the hub. So they can't clock left or right, the lug nuts hold them far more than those little set screws do. Then when the wheel goes on and the lug nuts are tightened up properly, it can't walk back and forth either. Plus the caliper itself is locking it in place.

I'm sure there's a reason that Honda has them, I just don't know what it is.
Well, now that you say that, I never really thought of it like that. And now that you say it, yea, you're right, LOL.
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post #239 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-02-2016, 10:14 PM
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Well, now that you say that, I never really thought of it like that. And now that you say it, yea, you're right, LOL.
I did a little further reading, and apparently some European cars like Mercedes use lug BOLTS instead of lug nuts, and they also use those set screws to lock the rotor to the hub so it doesn't move around as you're trying to position the wheel.

So in the case of the cars that use lug nuts, it's for holding it together on the assembly line. On cars with lug bolts, they're just to make getting the wheels reattached a little simpler.
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post #240 of 261 (permalink) Old 03-03-2016, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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I looked at the slotted only options over on RA as @Woodman said, but they only seem to have front left slotted rotors available. So, I think I'm going to go with the PowerStop slotted+drilled rotor and pad kit.

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I'd replace the lines at the calipers anyway if you haven't already; they're cheap as stock replacement items, or RA.
They're 20 years old, and are rubber full of brake fluid; need I say more?

I can't feel the rotors in the back, thus my obsession with the brake valves.
I checked again over on RA for the stainless steel brake lines, and I'm either blind as a bat or they're not carrying them anymore.

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'13 Taurus, "The Bull": 3.5L Goodness

'00 2dr v6 Accord, "Dirty Girl": Magnaflow Hi-Flow CAT | Greddy SP2 CAT-Back | Eibach ProKit springs | Eibach F/R Sway Bars | KYB-GR2 struts
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