4.6 rev limiter ???? - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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4.6 rev limiter ????

Can anyone tell me if the 1997 4.6 T-Bird has some type rev limiter on the engine ? Reciently I figured I'd open up my T-Bird to she what she could do. At 105 the engine shut down. as I coasted to under 100, she kicked back in and ran fine. I drove it at 80 for a while, then ran it back up to 100 with no problems.
Whats up with that ?
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 03:55 PM
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Speed Limiter?

This is one of many threads that came up with a simple search. Not being a jerk. Search is your friend here. Welcome to the forums.
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 03:56 PM
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That's the speed governor that keeps the car safe for several reasons including a crappy stock driveshaft and tires that probably aren't rated for speed greater than about 120 not to mention the maximum LEGAL speed limit in this country is about 75 or 80 MPH depending on where you live. It has nothing to do with an engine rev limiter.

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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highway pirate View Post
Can anyone tell me if the 1997 4.6 T-Bird has some type rev limiter on the engine ? Reciently I figured I'd open up my T-Bird to she what she could do. At 105 the engine shut down. as I coasted to under 100, she kicked back in and ran fine. I drove it at 80 for a while, then ran it back up to 100 with no problems.
Whats up with that ?
Pardon the old guys, they don't like repeating themselves.
Long story short, our cars are limited to a speed of ~105 because our stock driveshaft is a very cheaply made, and very, very long 2 piece, crimped together shaft that will start to wildly vibrate at a certain RPM just slightly above where our cars would be at around 105mph with stock gearing and tire size. That vibration on a 20 year old driveshaft that probably hasn't been touched since it was installed in the car can cause sudden and catastrophic failure of the driveshaft which could cause total loss of control, and very high probability of death. Not a good thing.

Yes, you CAN remove that speed limitation with a computer tune, but if you haven't upgraded the driveshaft at the very least (a 4" Dynotech shaft is highly reccomended) it's just a bad idea. I would highly recommend that you not exceed the speed limit that much on public roads (but I know the desire, and I have given in myself) because of the obvious danger to yourself and others.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
Pardon the old guys, they don't like repeating themselves.
Long story short, our cars are limited to a speed of ~105 because our stock driveshaft is a very cheaply made, and very, very long 2 piece, crimped together shaft that will start to wildly vibrate at a certain RPM just slightly above where our cars would be at around 105mph with stock gearing and tire size. That vibration on a 20 year old driveshaft that probably hasn't been touched since it was installed in the car can cause sudden and catastrophic failure of the driveshaft which could cause total loss of control, and very high probability of death. Not a good thing.

Yes, you CAN remove that speed limitation with a computer tune, but if you haven't upgraded the driveshaft at the very least (a 3.5" Dynotech shaft is highly recommended) it's just a bad idea. I would highly recommend that you not exceed the speed limit that much on public roads (but I know the desire, and I have given in myself) because of the obvious danger to yourself and others.
Fixed it for you.

The 4" shaft is overkill and has been known to rub causing another form of catastrophic failure. Go with the 3.5" shaft.

4" Shaft rubbing = Dynotech 4 in driveshaft clearance issue
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Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 12-20-2015 at 08:22 PM.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 09:04 PM
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The speed limiter is there because of the factory T-rated tires, nothing to do with the driveshaft. This is evidenced by the fact that the SC got the exact same driveshaft, but no speed limiter. On my lemons car, with 3.55s, the vibration of the driveshaft only became an issue around 135mph.

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-20-2015, 09:22 PM
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If you insist on going those speeds. I must impart my knowledge on upgrading to the highest quality brakes possible and a quality drive shaft for your safety as well as your vehicles. Do it when other beings bodily harm is at the very least possibility or non exsistent. Welcome to the forum. Prepare to spend hours upon hours with that search button if your even remotely interested in your respective mn12
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-21-2015, 06:50 AM
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Has any one had a stock drive shaft fail due to high speed and
not u-joint problems?

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-21-2015, 08:11 AM
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I have never broken a stock driveshaft, however in the lemons car, with 3.55s, and running it up to 135+mph, the vibration from the stock driveshaft was so bad that it broke the tailshaft housing off the back of the trans. Even when that happened though, it just started leaking fluid, the trans didn't lock up or anything.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-21-2015, 08:44 AM
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Most if not all MN12's have a loop in the car to help contain a driveshaft issue though there is no guarantee on anything. You also have a fuel tank right there for it to possibly hit too. In my car I actually have two DS loops installed.

Regardless 105 to 135 MPH or more on the highway is ludicrous. Forget about your life or property damage if you prefer, but not of others.

When installing after market gears such as 3.73 or more it drops the limiter even more without the tune. In all respects be sure to get the car tuned for such changes and keep the speed down on the highway.

Just my .02 cents worth.

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-21-2015, 10:42 AM
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Same mode of failure as our cars.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 12-21-2015, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r429460 View Post
Has any one had a stock drive shaft fail due to high speed and
not u-joint problems?
I replaced one that was spinning inside itself, and would rattle when you shook it. I thought the tranny was slipping in 2nd and 3rd at wot, lol.
The other one that was bad had a bad ujoint that didn't really show until I had it off the car.
The third one was replaced before any issues could show up.


The vibration and failure is mostly due to running interstate speeds for long periods, it seems to me.

I drive my cars on a 45 miles each way commute, and our interstate runs fast at times.

To the OP:
Brakes are a good upgrade; I just bought a set of powder coated PBR's for ~$100 with core.

Search thru the basic stuff; you have a 20 year old car now; they need all the rubber stuff replaced, bushings, ball joints, all kinds of stuff.

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 09:28 AM
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I have a 1994 4.6l .... First year obdii with the passenger side connector. I've never experienced any of these issues and I've had my car north of 120 many times.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveg1988 View Post
Same mode of failure as our cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZXBjVIrR08
Not really. The S197 uses a split driveshaft with a chassis mounted central bearing, so 4 joints and two shorter shafts, plus there's a solid rear axle behind it that's constantly articulating the U joints. The driveshaft in an MN12 is relatively static as the only U joint movement comes through flex of the various bushings, and it's only two pieces in construction, not application. It will gradually go out of round when you hit it's critical speed, causing violent vibrations, so you'd have some warning long before anything like you see in that video happens
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraken2026 View Post
I have a 1994 4.6l .... First year obdii with the passenger side connector. I've never experienced any of these issues and I've had my car north of 120 many times.
so you're saying your stock, untuned car doesn't have a speed limiter that you're aware of? Interesting.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraken2026 View Post
I have a 1994 4.6l .... First year obdii with the passenger side connector. I've never experienced any of these issues and I've had my car north of 120 many times.
Only way this is possible is your car must have been tuned, possibly prior to you owning it. It should shut down somewhere between 105-112.

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 06:44 PM
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Dead stock, had it 10 years even swapped to a reman ECU about 6 ago when the iac pathway fried. I've had it GPS clocked at 120, the stock speedo was a tick over 120 at the time. Might be that the first year obd2 weirdness didn't get it.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 07:00 PM
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No, I have owned 3 94 4.6 MN12s, one Cougar and 2 Tbirds, and all of them shut down exactly at 109. I had one 95, which shut down at 105. I had 2 97s, one shut down at 109 and the other at 111. My 98 MarkVIII, when stock, was weird in that it would shut down at 105 in 4th gear, but if you slowed down and turned OD off, it would go up to 125mph in 3rd, but even that was decidedly a speed limiter, not running out of gear. The only MN12s I have ever found to not have any speed limiter at all in stock form are SCs. My 90SC I had up to 135 a couple times, and the only time I have ever fully topped out an MN12 was in my 89XR7, which buried the speedo, and based on the tach reading, gear ratio, and tire size, I was at 157mph when the tach stopped climbing.

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 07:48 PM
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No, I have owned 3 94 4.6 MN12s, one Cougar and 2 Tbirds, and all of them shut down exactly at 109. I had one 95, which shut down at 105. I had 2 97s, one shut down at 109 and the other at 111. My 98 MarkVIII, when stock, was weird in that it would shut down at 105 in 4th gear, but if you slowed down and turned OD off, it would go up to 125mph in 3rd, but even that was decidedly a speed limiter, not running out of gear. The only MN12s I have ever found to not have any speed limiter at all in stock form are SCs. My 90SC I had up to 135 a couple times, and the only time I have ever fully topped out an MN12 was in my 89XR7, which buried the speedo, and based on the tach reading, gear ratio, and tire size, I was at 157mph when the tach stopped climbing.
My 96 and 97 cars als had a speed limiter at ~105-110.

If the op's Cars' speedo said 120 for more than a few seconds, it's new.



Can you imagine a tire exploding at 120mph?

EDIT: MMikey, I've seen the same **** on the 96 97 cars in regards to the OD button; you're lucky it didn't do the 3-4-3-4-3-etc Real Fast until it died at 127 mph. I have the tune mod file now to fix that, if you want it.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 07:52 PM
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Also have a 94, it would kick in just under 90 in the brief period I had 3.55s swapped in but the stock tune in place.


So with all due respect

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
No, I have owned 3 94 4.6 MN12s, one Cougar and 2 Tbirds, and all of them shut down exactly at 109. I had one 95, which shut down at 105. I had 2 97s, one shut down at 109 and the other at 111. My 98 MarkVIII, when stock, was weird in that it would shut down at 105 in 4th gear, but if you slowed down and turned OD off, it would go up to 125mph in 3rd, but even that was decidedly a speed limiter, not running out of gear. The only MN12s I have ever found to not have any speed limiter at all in stock form are SCs. My 90SC I had up to 135 a couple times, and the only time I have ever fully topped out an MN12 was in my 89XR7, which buried the speedo, and based on the tach reading, gear ratio, and tire size, I was at 157mph when the tach stopped climbing.
Well my od button is jacked and doesn't work so maybe that's it. But I've done it once on 75 and twice on 94 in the last 10 years. It has had a engine and 2 trans swaps but I don't see how that would effect the ECU governer. I know you know your **** Mike and I'm not trying to bs at all I just know what I saw. Unless both the ECU I had in it when I got it and the reman one has the governor eliminated I have no idea why they would though I bought it with 70,000 on it and have around 190 now.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-05-2016, 11:10 PM
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obd2 has nothing to do with it. A speed governor can be implemented without diagnostic capability. For a faulty remfg'd PCM, sure I could see that happening. On the stock Ford PCM, sorry but I don't see it happening.
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-06-2016, 09:01 AM
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Not really. The S197 uses a split driveshaft with a chassis mounted central bearing, so 4 joints and two shorter shafts
Well technically 3 joints. It has a u joint in front, cv plunge joint in the centre (with a support bearing) and a cv in the rear. The rear half of the driveshaft is actually filled with foam or rubber and the whole assembly weighs almost 40lbs!

Unfortunately due to the funky driveline angles in the s197 nearly any aftermarket ds will vibrate at high speeds. Been there, done that. Although DSS now has a one piece with a CV joint in the rear, will it vibrate, who knows?

The general consensus is that Ford wouldn't spend more money on something like that unless they had to ya know...
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-10-2016, 11:47 AM
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Well technically 3 joints. It has a u joint in front, cv plunge joint in the centre (with a support bearing) and a cv in the rear. The rear half of the driveshaft is actually filled with foam or rubber and the whole assembly weighs almost 40lbs!

Unfortunately due to the funky driveline angles in the s197 nearly any aftermarket ds will vibrate at high speeds. Been there, done that. Although DSS now has a one piece with a CV joint in the rear, will it vibrate, who knows?

The general consensus is that Ford wouldn't spend more money on something like that unless they had to ya know...
By mode of failure i mean vibrations. Harmonic resonance and all that crud.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 12:55 AM
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Hey Trunk Monkey, long time to chat with. I agree with you on the speed on the MN12's but as far as driveshaft failure in these platforms, isn't the 1993 Mark VIII one piece driveshaft still a viable alternative to the factory two piece? Just asking for my own update as I just found one and am going to take it to the driveshaft shop to have it balanced and new U-Joints installed prior to installing in my 1994 T-Bird. Thanks and good to see you here as I have been away for awhile. Be well.
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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 01:45 PM
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Hey Trunk Monkey, long time to chat with. I agree with you on the speed on the MN12's but as far as driveshaft failure in these platforms, isn't the 1993 Mark VIII one piece driveshaft still a viable alternative to the factory two piece? Just asking for my own update as I just found one and am going to take it to the driveshaft shop to have it balanced and new U-Joints installed prior to installing in my 1994 T-Bird. Thanks and good to see you here as I have been away for awhile. Be well.
I have one on mine, and while the fastest I've had it so far is a brief jump to 100mph, no vibrations whatsoever even though I have 3.73:1 rear gears.
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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 04:04 PM
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Hey Trunk Monkey, long time to chat with. I agree with you on the speed on the MN12's but as far as driveshaft failure in these platforms, isn't the 1993 Mark VIII one piece driveshaft still a viable alternative to the factory two piece? Just asking for my own update as I just found one and am going to take it to the driveshaft shop to have it balanced and new U-Joints installed prior to installing in my 1994 T-Bird. Thanks and good to see you here as I have been away for awhile. Be well.
Welcome back. Yes, we're all still here. Glad to hear you're well.

Yes, as Woodman said, those will work.

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Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 04:19 PM
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To beat a dead horse... Over 130mph with 3.73s no problems in the SC. My Cougar hit speed limiter at 111mph.

Mike I find your top speed of 157mph interseting in that the math I did years ago put the top speed of a SC at ~155mph (drag and RPM limited)

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93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 04:47 PM
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Well it was just over 4200rpms in 5th with 245/50/16 tires and the stock 2.73s. That car also had a late model blower with the early model pulley, and 2.5" true dual exhaust with no cats and flowmasters (sounded absolutely horrible by the way) so it was probably making a bit more power than stock, but it still had stock MAF, TB, injectors, intercooler, and tune, so it couldn't have been making more than maybe 15-20hp or so over stock. Of course, this was also before the days of GPS speedos in your phone, so I was going by a factory tach, which could easily be off by a bit. Either way though, it was damn fast! The car was stable until almost 4K rpms, then suddenly got real floaty and I started hearing wind noises seemingly coming from every seam on the car, so it definitely didn't like it!
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-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90SC 5-speed, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, soon to be transplanted into...
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-70 Torino GT Fastback project car. Needs EFI and a manual trans, but I'm not sure what motor to go with yet.
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 01-12-2016, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
Well it was just over 4200rpms in 5th with 245/50/16 tires and the stock 2.73s. That car also had a late model blower with the early model pulley, and 2.5" true dual exhaust with no cats and flowmasters (sounded absolutely horrible by the way) so it was probably making a bit more power than stock, but it still had stock MAF, TB, injectors, intercooler, and tune, so it couldn't have been making more than maybe 15-20hp or so over stock. Of course, this was also before the days of GPS speedos in your phone, so I was going by a factory tach, which could easily be off by a bit. Either way though, it was damn fast! The car was stable until almost 4K rpms, then suddenly got real floaty and I started hearing wind noises seemingly coming from every seam on the car, so it definitely didn't like it!
According to the RPM/Speed calculator on this page Andy's Auto Sport Calculators, you are correct with 157mph at 4200 rpm.
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