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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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PCV system delete pros and cons

I've already deleted my egr, so the next step would be getting rid of the pcv setup.

The car- my 95 Bird with a PI motor with a bullitt intake and hotter cams.

The plan- weld AN bungs to the top of both valve covers and run hose to a vented breather can mounted on the fire wall or where the battery was.

The reason- because why would I want to allow my engine to ingest oil vapor?

Is there any reason to keep the stock type pcv system?

1995 T-Bird. PI 4.6. Bullitt intake. Big MHS cams. 4,200 Dirty Dogg converter. Kooks headers. Full exhaust. 4" Drive Shaft. 4:10s.
Waiting on a tune.

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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 09:05 PM
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The downside: OCV systems typically emit a fair amount of odor.

The other option would be to keep the system CCV and install a quality oil separator on the PCV to manifold side of the system.

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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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When you say odor, is that just a smell?

1995 T-Bird. PI 4.6. Bullitt intake. Big MHS cams. 4,200 Dirty Dogg converter. Kooks headers. Full exhaust. 4" Drive Shaft. 4:10s.
Waiting on a tune.

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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 09:55 PM
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Your engine is ingesting combustion vapors into the crankcase without PCV, it's much better to burn oil vapor than it is to contaminate the lubrication system. It'll smell and leave a fine oil film around the breather.

-Matt
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
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When you say odor, is that just a smell?
Yes. You'll notice the smell after converting to OCV.

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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 08:40 AM
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It may smoke at idle also. Many cars do after performing this "mod".

Al

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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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It may smoke at idle also. Many cars do after performing this "mod".

Al
What would cause it to smoke at idle and not at higher rpms? I was expecting the opposite.

I currently am running trick flow valve covers with a little breather on each of them. I haven't noticed any issues yet when driving normally. The problem that I have with them is when making high rpm passes, the breathers get too much oil thrown up into them and oil ends up leaking down onto the headers. I figured that plumbing them to a remote canister would allow the oil to get collected and still allow everything to breath well.

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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 03:44 PM
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Yeah, I'm sure it would also smoke at high RPM, but you don't see it and smell it like you do at idle.

Al

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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 04:13 PM
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We also have thin rings; thin rings like to be 'biased' by the vacuum, so they always move to a flat surface; the lack of vacuum can cause rings to flutter at higher RPM's, making them shatter like glass, worst case.




EGR is useful for interstate driving; if you don't do that, you don't need it. You take a big hit in MPG removing it.

PCV is part of the design; I'd want 1.5mm rings at least before thinking of removing it. And I still can't think of a good reason to.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 05:21 PM
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You ever ride behind a early-50's flat head motor, smoking under the hood, dripping oil down the road, and stinking?

Yah.

PCV cured all that.

Add the catch can to keep the vapor out of the intake, you get the best of both worlds.

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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:07 PM
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If you're willing to use a canister why not do as Rod suggested and restore PCV with an oil separator inline? There really are no cons to a functioning PCV system besides picking up a minor amount of oil vapor along with the abundance of crankcase pressure and contaminated vapors the system is used for. A separator eliminates that con if it's a big deal. Really deleting it has zero pros, it's a ricer mod like having an open "cai" under the hood, and you're doing more damage to the engine without.

-Matt
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 06:17 PM
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And motor cyclists will just LOVE you! for dripping oil all over the road.

Add the catch can / oil separator, keep the PCV system, and keep everyone happy.

Or delete it. OOOH! Why not put a flat head V8 back in too? Or even better, a Model T 4-banger!!!

*mutters*

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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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We also have thin rings; thin rings like to be 'biased' by the vacuum, so they always move to a flat surface; the lack of vacuum can cause rings to flutter at higher RPM's
While that sounded really good- there isn't vacuum in the crankcase. The pcv valve vents to the atmosphere side of the throttle body... right?

1995 T-Bird. PI 4.6. Bullitt intake. Big MHS cams. 4,200 Dirty Dogg converter. Kooks headers. Full exhaust. 4" Drive Shaft. 4:10s.
Waiting on a tune.

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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 07:45 PM
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While that sounded really good- there isn't vacuum in the crankcase. The pcv valve vents to the atmosphere side of the throttle body... right?
No, the PCV valve is into the vacuum side of the intake.

The BREATHER is the throttle body side of the MAF, so it's metered / measured air.

RwP

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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. I think I will plan on putting the pcv system back in and getting an inline oil separator.

1995 T-Bird. PI 4.6. Bullitt intake. Big MHS cams. 4,200 Dirty Dogg converter. Kooks headers. Full exhaust. 4" Drive Shaft. 4:10s.
Waiting on a tune.

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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 03:31 AM
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I use these T strainers on PCV/CCV systems.

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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 06:01 AM
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The little air compressor separators do not work as well as a quality unit from UPR, JLT, etc. Been there, tried it, tried it again, then ponied up the bucks for a better part.

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 08:06 AM
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Here is a link to a sealed catch can. The price appears to have crept up since I got mine years ago, but they work.
Saikou Michi Co. Home

This is on my Toyota - I have a can with 3/8" fittings inline with the PCV hose, and one with 1/2" fittings for the breather side, returning to the intake pipe. In both cases, I have the catch can mounted low in the engine compartment.

Once a year, I drain an ounce or two of oil from the PCV side. I don't have any oil on the breather side, but I am sure on my high mileage engine I would have had a significant amount.

Al

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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo 281 View Post
I use these T strainers on PCV/CCV systems.
Speaking of oil separators. What do you guys suggest on a boosted setup (vortech)? I am not deleting PCV and putting breathers, I'd rather have no excessive pressure in the crankcase cause boost will increase my blow-by. But since I'll be rerouting the PCV to the front of the supercharger where I guess I'd have a lot more 'suction' and I don't wanna end up sucking oil from the valve cover into my intake lol, just the vapors. So I'll need some sort of separator.
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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikutoisahobo View Post
Speaking of oil separators. What do you guys suggest on a boosted setup (vortech)? I am not deleting PCV and putting breathers, I'd rather have no excessive pressure in the crankcase cause boost will increase my blow-by. But since I'll be rerouting the PCV to the front of the supercharger where I guess I'd have a lot more 'suction' and I don't wanna end up sucking oil from the valve cover into my intake lol, just the vapors. So I'll need some sort of separator.
You will have larger amounts of blowby, due to added compression; them magnitude is probably measurable, put a vacuum gauge on the valve cover.

You will probably need a higher flow pcv, and a separator is a must.

Oil climbs the ports in the passenger head, after being slung off the crank, filling the head with freaking oil. Thanks, ford.

This happens over about 5200 rpm on my 96 Cougar, and I have moved a half a freaking quart thru the separator (it was full, o.f.); YMMV.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-05-2017, 08:25 PM
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When I had had the turbo on my 95 I left the PCV alone as is. The PCV is already a check valve. I had a remotely mounted breather filter ran from the driver side valve cover incase it threw up oil under boost but I never had an issue. Under normal driving idling (no intake pressure) the PCV would operate normally. Under boost pressure the PCV would prevent pressure from bleeding into the crank case and allow the case to vent out the breather. Considering on a street car your only in boost for a few seconds it's not usually a big deal. I think a lot of boosted cars have used this basic design. Diesels for example use a CCV as that the crank case is closed and you have a vent from one valve cover typically routed pre turbo. My powerstroke stock had a 90° feed from the CCV to intake tube and pointed towards the filter as to reduce any kind of high velocity venturi effect. I now run a blower on my powerstroke and feed the CCV to a low venturi area at the blower inlet along with one of those T strainers I posted above. Has greatly reduced oil being sucked into the induction system which is great because if the engine is running its seeing pressure in the plenums.

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
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But since I'll be rerouting the PCV to the front of the supercharger where I guess I'd have a lot more 'suction' and I don't wanna end up sucking oil from the valve cover into my intake lol, just the vapors. So I'll need some sort of separator.
You need to keep the PCV running to the intake manifold that sees a lot of vacuum. You want to run the other side (the breather) to the inlet of the supercharger. That way, whether you are in vacuum or boost the crankcase will always have at least a little vacuum on it.

You can pull 1-2 in/hg of vacuum at a turbo/supercharger inlet from the suction when under boost. But this is not enough for the PCV valve side - you would be severely limiting the crankcase ventilation if you only ran it a hose to the turbo/SC inlet.

Al

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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikutoisahobo View Post
Speaking of oil separators. What do you guys suggest on a boosted setup (vortech)? I am not deleting PCV and putting breathers, I'd rather have no excessive pressure in the crankcase cause boost will increase my blow-by. But since I'll be rerouting the PCV to the front of the supercharger where I guess I'd have a lot more 'suction' and I don't wanna end up sucking oil from the valve cover into my intake lol, just the vapors. So I'll need some sort of separator.
Will you be running draw-through or blow-through?


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When I had had the turbo on my 95 I left the PCV alone as is. The PCV is already a check valve. I had a remotely mounted breather filter ran from the driver side valve cover incase it threw up oil under boost but I never had an issue. Under normal driving idling (no intake pressure) the PCV would operate normally. Under boost pressure the PCV would prevent pressure from bleeding into the crank case and allow the case to vent out the breather.
That setup equates to an unmetered air leak. Air is drawn through the breather, through the crankcase, and into the plenum via the PCV valve without being metered by the MAF. Sure you can fudge things in the tune file, but it isn't correct. Either run a OCV system or a CCV system, not half and half.

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 11:01 PM
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On a Supercharged car that is fine and likely best to do as you will be pulling thru the MAF but I was blowing thru the MAF and did not have the option. I never got into the tuning of that setup for it to be correct but no reason it can't be compensated in the calibration it's a small vacuum line. Whether correct or not is an opinion and I'm more concerned with will it work.

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-06-2017, 11:37 PM
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It can only be compensated for so much in the tune, you may be able to fudge a few tables to account for some of the unmetered air but you may as well run a carburator if you're just shooting for "good enough, it works". If you're going to delete any part of PCV, delete ALL of it.

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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:29 AM
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After deleting my egr on several cars i didnt knowtice any drop in mpg...
My current car i gained, buut i did add an npi manifold,75mm tbody plenum and intake..
It went from 150ish to 160s. Same drive ,same grade gas and filled up until the gas pump clocked off each time to try and make it as accurate as i could.. And at 160 the needle was still abit above half a tank.

I WANT TO TRADE a 75mm throttlebody and exremly ported vic plenum and a set of 24lb injectors FOR a pi intake and alternator bracket and hopefully valleytube and nipple, pm me!!!
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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 08:18 AM
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On a Supercharged car that is fine and likely best to do as you will be pulling thru the MAF but I was blowing thru the MAF and did not have the option. I never got into the tuning of that setup for it to be correct but no reason it can't be compensated in the calibration it's a small vacuum line. Whether correct or not is an opinion and I'm more concerned with will it work.
With a blow-through centri or turbo setup, the apparently opinionated correct method is to run a OCV system.

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It can only be compensated for so much in the tune, you may be able to fudge a few tables to account for some of the unmetered air but you may as well run a carburator if you're just shooting for "good enough, it works". If you're going to delete any part of PCV, delete ALL of it.
Bingo.

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After deleting my egr on several cars i didnt knowtice any drop in mpg...
My current car i gained, buut i did add an npi manifold,75mm tbody plenum and intake..
It went from 150ish to 160s. Same drive ,same grade gas and filled up until the gas pump clocked off each time to try and make it as accurate as i could.. And at 160 the needle was still abit above half a tank.
That method isn't accurate, as you're relying on the accuracy of an inaccurate gauge. Divide gallons by miles driven.

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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
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After deleting my egr on several cars i didnt knowtice any drop in mpg...
My current car i gained, buut i did add an npi manifold,75mm tbody plenum and intake..
It went from 150ish to 160s. Same drive ,same grade gas and filled up until the gas pump clocked off each time to try and make it as accurate as i could.. And at 160 the needle was still abit above half a tank.
Fascinating. Too bad nobody asked about EGR.

-Matt
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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
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It can only be compensated for so much in the tune, you may be able to fudge a few tables to account for some of the unmetered air but you may as well run a carburator if you're just shooting for "good enough, it works". If you're going to delete any part of PCV, delete ALL of it.
It would only be an unmetered leak out of boost. Also the Pcm I believe does not use MAF input under WOT conditions anyways? Either way I never had an issue running a PCV that way even untuned. I ran a breather when the engine was mostly stock as well and never had any problem. When I was running the PI motor with the small turbo I did however modify the MAF and installed larger injectors to incorrectly richen AF as I never got into tuning in those days. I still don't understamd why it could not be compensated for unless the software you are using has limits on adjustments to the file. Some tuning software has no interlocks and you have full control.

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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:22 PM
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You can run the car without a MAF at all if you wanted to, running purely off of the tables, with no feedback, it'll work just like a carburetor. Yes it can be compensated for in tuning software to an extent, but asking any repudiate tuner to dial in your car with a vacuum leak and you'll get the same look of bewilderment from them as you would asking a shop to align your car without fixing the tire leak. You don't fix a problem by trying to make the problem work.

-Matt
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