96 Bird 4.6 Hard to start, cuts out - TCCoA Forums

 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-11-2017, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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96 Bird 4.6 Hard to start, cuts out

I have a 96 with the 4.6 in it, all original except the intake which had to be replaced several years ago due to the crossover cracking on it.

The car had been showing the codes for system lean on bank 1 and lean on bank 2 for a while but was running fine. I had replaced most of the vacum lines under the hood but did not get the codes to stay away.

A few days ago it became very hard to start and when it did start it would cut out almost like it was not getting fuel or spark, sometimes it would die other times it would go right back to idle and do it again then eventually die and again be very hard to start. The car was running fine the day before but since this happened it has not been able to keep running for more than a minute or two.

I did some testing, using auto doctor on my tablet turned on logging and managed to get the car to start and idle for about a minute before it died and transferred the log to my pc. I see a couple of things in the data that seem odd but then again I have no experience with this and do not know what I should be seeing there so any help would be appreciated.

I have attached the sensor log if anyone wants to have a look
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File Type: zip sensor-data.zip (3.6 KB, 5 views)
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 05:54 AM
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Have you tested fuel pressure? If it was weak it would give lean codes. If it got too weak, it will stall and not run. Or fall on its face when accelerating hard.

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 08:32 AM
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I could only think of four things that could cause this start/die issue, and maybe in this order, FPR, pump, iicm/ccrm, or even o2 sensor........
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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I checked the fuel pressure and it seemed to be in the 35-40 range both when it started and when it was acting up.
No leakage in the FPR, no difference when disconnected the vacum line from it.
o2 sensor could be a possibility, though I have not gotten any related codes for those.

iicm/ccrm? not sure what that stands for

Last night when I had the car started it was idling smoothly for about 30 seconds during that time I was seeing STFT and LTFT of
-8.6/9.4 on bank 1 and -6.2/8.6 on bank 2

I tried to give it a little throttle and it stumbled then revved a little and choked out and died
when that happened I saw STFT/LTFT of -0.8/25 and 1.6/4.7

From what I have read that STFT + LTFT should be under 10 total so that 25 on the LTFT on bank 1 looks to be an indicator of the problem.

Is there a way to test the o2 sensor ?
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 09:06 AM
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At its current age, I'd just replace the O2s with good ones; they get sluggish and don't work right LONG before they toss a fail code.

RwP

Fuelly
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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Makes sense, raining here today so will have to wait before I can get under the car and try to get it out. I am thinking that if it is the O2 then it is probably that front one on the passenger side that is causing the major issue. Hopefully I can get it to come out after 21 years in there I would imagine it will be difficult to get out.

Overall this has been a great car. I am the second owner and have had it for 17 years now. Over that time have had very few issues with it.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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So I went out today and got under the hood, pulled off the air intake tube to try and see if I could see the O2 Sensor from the top. While it was off I started the car and it sit there and idled pretty good for a minute or so then died. I started it back up and did some experimenting with the connections, first reconnecting to hose to the IAC, then to the throttle body and then to the MAF. It seemed to run best when all the hoses were connected except the one to the MAF. With the MAF connected it stumbled bad when I tried to give it throttle with the hose off the MAF it stumbled a bit but not as bad and revved up fairly well. In all cases it was doing better than the other times I have tried it.

So anyway I pulled the MAF off and could see some build up on the lower wire inside so I have cleaned that and am letting it sit for a while to make sure it is dry before I put it back on the car, may wait til tomorrow to put it back in.

I also blew out the air filter and replaced the PCV while I was at it. Would have replaced the air filter but neither of the nearby part stores had one in stock. The filter was not all that dirty but was able to get some dust out of it by blowing air through it in the opposite direction.

I wonder what the chances are that MAF was causing my issues?
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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After reinstalling the MAF and all the hoses the car started and idled pretty smooth until I shut it down. I allowed it to warm up some then gave it a bit of throttle running it at 1500 rpm, then 2500, then 3000 and 3500 each for about 30 seconds or so. For the most part it was smooth but a few times it did try to cut out with the tac dropping to or near 0 then jumping back up to where it should be.

I checked the codes and there were 6 being reported but at least some of those was likely triggered by my testing with the MAF unplugged and such so I sent the log to myself, cleared the codes and started it back up again with the log enabled, let it idle for a while then did the multiple rpm holds for a few seconds each.

It was reporting one pending code after doing this. That code was P0302 <> Ignition/Distributor Engine Speed Input Circuit Malfunction

Where would I find the two related sensors on this car?
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-20-2017, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
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Well it now appears that the MAF was red herring. After cleaning I was able to start the car and it ran fairly well but with the occasional cut out. I did drive it to the store the other day and again for the most part it ran normally. Today it did not want to start, acting again like it was when I first posted.
I am thinking now that it is probably the ICM that is the problem.

I've not yet removed it from the car but I have read that they have to be programmed for the car.

Anyone did this on a 96 Bird or otherwise provide any helpful info on how to test if possible or what the best method for replacement would be? Would it be better to get one from a junk yard and if so would that one need to be programmed as well?
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