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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-10-2016, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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351W twin turbo good idea bad idea pros and cons

hi guys

After running into a low mileage 351W i was thinking twin turbo stealth system sounds cool ,with winter time coming up 3 to 4 months building time possible there are a lot things that can be done to the engine

what is the pros and cons for the 351 besides dimensions and weight?

i can fab my own headers for the turbos, build my own intake and what ever is needet

like to here some ideas,constructive criticism,2 cents what ever you got



solong

hoschy
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 05:52 AM
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Dimensions and weight are the primary cons. I've seen 460cid motors based on the 351W; more cubes are almost always good *grins*

RwP

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphP View Post
Dimensions and weight are the primary cons. I've seen 460cid motors based on the 351W; more cubes are almost always good *grins*

RwP
Effective or actual . SCs have effective displacement of ~460cid.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 04:14 PM
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Given how much wider a 351W is at the top than a 5.0, is there enough clearance for the necessary exhaust manifolds?

How will you handle tuning? IIRC, you were thinking about going with an Easy-EFI system, right?
I'd say get the car running right with exhaust manifolds (or just the manifolds installed with turbos that don't aren't plumbed in to add positive pressure to the intake FIRST and then tackle the whole turbo boost thing.)

It seems like every turbo project I've seen here was waylaid by tuning problems.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 04:42 PM
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Madmikeyl and 392bird immediately come to mind as 351 based users, headers don't seem to be an issue, they're still way narrower than modulars!

-Matt
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Given how much wider a 351W is at the top than a 5.0, is there enough clearance for the necessary exhaust manifolds?

How will you handle tuning? IIRC, you were thinking about going with an Easy-EFI system, right?
I'd say get the car running right with exhaust manifolds (or just the manifolds installed with turbos that don't aren't plumbed in to add positive pressure to the intake FIRST and then tackle the whole turbo boost thing.)

It seems like every turbo project I've seen here was waylaid by tuning problems.
-g
I here you sounds good to me, i also think it is doable with a megasquirt ecu vs tb injection which can learn on it*s own by using volumetric efficiency as goal if you get the licensed version of the tuning software for actually a decent price.
My goal right now is to dimple die the car where ever i can to get the weight down to compensate for all the extra stuff what goes in like, cage, engine and so on.i just got the block in my washer for clean up. i just looking for some input and opinions so i can do my homework ,i
may end up doing a 2 step procedure, get the engine running do a couple laps and the turbos come later, haven*t decided yet
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 08:06 PM
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Personally if going to tune, why not go with Quarter Horse, the Ford hardware can handle anything under 10k RPM. I'm just not a fan of TBI, or "self-learning" efi. Goes back to something I've heard at work, "Don't have time to do it right, but always have time to go back and fix it."

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-11-2016, 10:35 PM
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Effective or actual . SCs have effective displacement of ~460cid.
Actual.

They are no longer available new, but World Products made the Man'O'War 351W sized 460 ...

Garage Sale - World Man-O-War 460 Ford Crate Engine - Free Shipping @ Speedway Motors

And for a SC to have an effective displacement of 460cid, wouldn't they need to be running about 15psi boost? Yes, some run higher, but until they hit that, they're not 460 effective. And 15psi boost on a 460 block yields an effective almost 900cid block *grins* "No replacement for displacement."

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphP View Post
Actual.

They are no longer available new, but World Products made the Man'O'War 351W sized 460 ...

Garage Sale - World Man-O-War 460 Ford Crate Engine - Free Shipping @ Speedway Motors

And for a SC to have an effective displacement of 460cid, wouldn't they need to be running about 15psi boost? Yes, some run higher, but until they hit that, they're not 460 effective. And 15psi boost on a 460 block yields an effective almost 900cid block *grins* "No replacement for displacement."

RwP
Yes, yes I am.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
I'd say get the car running right with exhaust manifolds (or just the manifolds installed with turbos that don't aren't plumbed in to add positive pressure to the intake FIRST and then tackle the whole turbo boost thing.)
That sounds funny. I am picturing these turbos blowing pressurized air at the ground, sounding like a street sweeper! That could create a real mess. Either set it up fully operational, or don't set it up at all.

Actually, w/o plumbing the boost to the intake, and therefore controlling the wastegates with boost control, it would blow the turbos to smithereens on the first hit.

It would be a big project that needs to be gone into with some turbo experience for sure. Here is where all the questions need to be asked: http://www.theturboforums.com/forum.php

One thing to keep in mind is the strength of the block being used, as most turbo setups will easily make double the original power of the engine.

Al

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-12-2016, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowez View Post
Personally if going to tune, why not go with Quarter Horse, the Ford hardware can handle anything under 10k RPM. I'm just not a fan of TBI, or "self-learning" efi. Goes back to something I've heard at work, "Don't have time to do it right, but always have time to go back and fix it."
Bowez; i have right now not enough knowledge of tuning an engine and i think i will end up with a 2 stage build,means convert to m5r2 and build the engine and build the turbo system at a later time which means 3 to 4 tuning sessions plus quarter horse plus what ever i may need,cost more than the mega squirt and i have to buy only one piece ,one ecu sounds good to me right now until someone here can tell me a better deal or a easier way and of course cheaper. i think you are right tbi is probably not a good solution and as far as i am concerned of the table. Headers and stuff to fab is not a big deal i have people working in steel warehouses so what ever i might need i have access and i can fabricate almost everything
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 07:44 AM
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If you're planning to add a turbo setup later on, you have to build the engine for it - ie: lower compression. 8.5-9.0 is a good number unless you plan on running E-85. But that low of compression would obviously suck N/A. It has to be a commitment, not an "I'll add it later" deal.

My recommendation is: you should only add a custom turbo setup if you have owned a turbo car before and modified it. Unless you have the guidance of a turbo expert. There are a lot of details that need to be in place to have a successful (and safe) setup.

Al

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 04:43 PM
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By what I see MS and QH will end up costing close to the same--I could be wrong though. There is no need for tuning sessions with QH (least no more than with MS).

ECU setup needs to be done as a Apples to Apples comparison. Just like the old argument that Carbs are cheaper than EFI; which while yes it is if all you want is basic fuel delivery but to get a Carb as the same level of performance as a OEM EFI your looking at the same money.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
If you're planning to add a turbo setup later on, you have to build the engine for it - ie: lower compression. 8.5-9.0 is a good number unless you plan on running E-85. But that low of compression would obviously suck N/A. It has to be a commitment, not an "I'll add it later" deal.

My recommendation is: you should only add a custom turbo setup if you have owned a turbo car before and modified it. Unless you have the guidance of a turbo expert. There are a lot of details that need to be in place to have a successful (and safe) setup.

Al
Hi Al
My friends in Europe had turbo cars most ford escort or sierra cosworth and the cars were slick from the factory, as we went to the track on the weekend it was always fun how they run in factory trim. Building an engine for Turbo is not complicated yes lower compression 8.5 to 1 is ideal for 1 bar or 14.5 psi boost, even doing it in 2 stages is not hard to do. i got milled gt 40 heads and cometic .028 headgasket should bring that number up to 9.2 to 1 for NA. i would need a cam anyway to complement the turbos, a factory grind doesn*t get you there,
i got a lot more to take care of anyway because i think to get a 351 up to speed needs a crank what is a lighter and b better balanced,piston and rods need to be up to code to.I will see how i can manage it to get stage 1 done this year
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-15-2016, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bowez View Post
By what I see MS and QH will end up costing close to the same--I could be wrong though. There is no need for tuning sessions with QH (least no more than with MS).

ECU setup needs to be done as a Apples to Apples comparison. Just like the old argument that Carbs are cheaper than EFI; which while yes it is if all you want is basic fuel delivery but to get a Carb as the same level of performance as a OEM EFI your looking at the same money.
hi bowez

ho do you get to that?? the MS ecu cost 900 software free, QH cost 250 plus some other stuff and than the tune for each change i make to the engine which means dyno time x modification, decipha cost 450 $$$ per tune yes ?? plus times x modification there is more money involved, not to mention turbos don*t like maf sensors they work better with map sensors there is one tune right there even before turbo maybe just maybe 200 bucks more for the MS but i don*t have to wait or find a signal for wifi, will see the way work is right now crazy overtime there is no turbo this year, no time

hoschy
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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-16-2016, 04:25 PM
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QH lets you data log and you use those logs to tune your own settings. Dyno time is not a necessity any more than it would be with MS. Turbo's don't care wether its MAF or MAP just with MAF you can't just dump measured air (which to me seems sloppy anyway).

QH, with software will run ~$675, most people use QH straight (no burned chip) so if you want to burn chip yes add ~$200.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-17-2016, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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QH lets you data log and you use those logs to tune your own settings. Dyno time is not a necessity any more than it would be with MS. Turbo's don't care wether its MAF or MAP just with MAF you can't just dump measured air (which to me seems sloppy anyway).

QH, with software will run ~$675, most people use QH straight (no burned chip) so if you want to burn chip yes add ~$200.
hi bowez 675 $ fine and who is doing the read out and the adjustment i don*t know that stuff jet so gotta pay someone,the ms software tells me what to do and why, sounds to me the better deal



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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-18-2016, 06:03 AM
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You do the tuning, just like with MS you do the wiring.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

93 SC Tbird
MPII w/ Plenum,90mm MAF, 85mm TB, 40# Injectors, 255 lph FP, Double IC w/fan, SCT Chip (Tuned by Jerry),3/4" Raised Top, F52-TT TC, SilverFox AOD 550, SPT-R VB
96 1/2 XR7 Sold and Salvaged
93 5.0 Tbird
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 08-19-2016, 11:53 PM
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hi bowez 675 $ fine and who is doing the read out and the adjustment i don*t know that stuff jet so gotta pay someone,the ms software tells me what to do and why, sounds to me the better deal



hoschy
If you don't know how to do the tuning stuff and plan to pay someone, find someone close enough for you to take the car to and then ask THEM what system they have experience with using. Other twinturbo projects on this site died for the very same reason.

After all, even if your chosen tuner has experience, you want to pay him for the time to setup your car and NOT just how to learn how to use QH or MS.

-g

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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-04-2016, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
If you don't know how to do the tuning stuff and plan to pay someone, find someone close enough for you to take the car to and then ask THEM what system they have experience with using. Other twinturbo projects on this site died for the very same reason.

After all, even if your chosen tuner has experience, you want to pay him for the time to setup your car and NOT just how to learn how to use QH or MS.

-g
sorry for the late response had some unpleasant issues to deal with.

yes that would be the plan to have it done close to my place,maybe i can figure it out i got time til next year
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