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post #31 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Another idea: You mentioned new EGR - did you mean the valve?
- Was the pipe gunked up as well?
- I only know this academically b/c I don't have this on my car anymore but I seem to recall that a closed EGR could cause knocking. A real professional mechanic like madmikey could confirm this theory.
A plugged up EGR could cause a pinging, because the computer will advance the ignition timing when EGR is activated, and without that inert exhaust gas to cool the cylinder, it will be too hot. However since his problem happens under heavy load, the EGR would be closed at that time, and so that pretty much rules that out as his problem.

I'm going to go with a slipped harmonic balancer causing incorrect base timing, based on reading this thread so far.

Here is a cheap test you can do to determine if your balancer has slipped. Go to Home Depot and buy an M14x1.25 bolt, about 3" long. This is the same thread as the spark plug threads. Remove the #1 spark plug, turn the engine over with a ratchet until about 20 degrees before TDC. Thread the bolt in by hand until it touches the top of the piston, then back it out a little bit, and turn the engine over with a ratchet until it stops. Don't crank on it here, just as soon as contact is made, you are done. Make a mark on the balancer where it stops, then flip the ratchet to loosen, and turn the engine over backwards until it stops again, and make another mark. If your balancer has not slipped, it will now stop exactly the same amount after TDC as it did before TDC. If it stops anywhere else, then turn it over forward again just to make sure it stops at the same spot as before to confirm the bolt hasn't moved, and now you know that TDC is exactly in the center of those 2 marks. As an example, if it stops going forward at 10 degrees BTDC, and then it stops the other direction at 20 degrees ATDC, you now know that what shows as 5 degrees ATDC is actually 0, and therefore your you need to retard all your timing adjustments by 5 degrees to achieve the correct ignition timing.

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post #32 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rayo View Post
The ECU will always advance timing with the SPOUT connector plugged in..

Remove the SPOUT connecter, and retard your timing 5°
Then after you do that, reinsert the SPOUT connector and go for a "spirited" drive..

Basically, you want to duplicate the same driving conditions you had before..When you heard the *pinging

Your ECU is advancing the timing too much for the octane of fuel you're using, so compensate..

If for some reason, after you've retarded the timing 5°..You're still getting the *pinging, retard it a few degrees more..

It's imperative, that when you set the timing..The SPOUT connector is removed

I suspect your Harmonic Balancer has slipped on you, and you're running more timing than you think..

Report back, with your findings..


Rayo..

When I did the timing, I misunderstood some directions and set it to 0° BTDC and it ran fine. But I don't think the engine got up to full temp.. So I should set it back to 5°? I googled the effects of 0° (I know the ECU advances it with the spout connector back on)... I've thought of putting it back to 0° if it doesn't damage the engine.

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post #33 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
A plugged up EGR could cause a pinging, because the computer will advance the ignition timing when EGR is activated, and without that inert exhaust gas to cool the cylinder, it will be too hot. However since his problem happens under heavy load, the EGR would be closed at that time, and so that pretty much rules that out as his problem.

I'm going to go with a slipped harmonic balancer causing incorrect base timing, based on reading this thread so far.

Here is a cheap test you can do to determine if your balancer has slipped. Go to Home Depot and buy an M14x1.25 bolt, about 3" long. This is the same thread as the spark plug threads. Remove the #1 spark plug, turn the engine over with a ratchet until about 20 degrees before TDC. Thread the bolt in by hand until it touches the top of the piston, then back it out a little bit, and turn the engine over with a ratchet until it stops. Don't crank on it here, just as soon as contact is made, you are done. Make a mark on the balancer where it stops, then flip the ratchet to loosen, and turn the engine over backwards until it stops again, and make another mark. If your balancer has not slipped, it will now stop exactly the same amount after TDC as it did before TDC. If it stops anywhere else, then turn it over forward again just to make sure it stops at the same spot as before to confirm the bolt hasn't moved, and now you know that TDC is exactly in the center of those 2 marks. As an example, if it stops going forward at 10 degrees BTDC, and then it stops the other direction at 20 degrees ATDC, you now know that what shows as 5 degrees ATDC is actually 0, and therefore your you need to retard all your timing adjustments by 5 degrees to achieve the correct ignition timing.
How can the balancer slip? Are parts of it able to rotate free of the crank?

The EGR and EGR solenoid are brand new. I was wondering if I put the wiring wrong, could I have burnt out the EGR solenoid? I can buy a new solenoid as the valve itself appears all metal. The EGR tube didn't seem gummed up or anything...
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post #34 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Natesriv View Post
How can the balancer slip? Are parts of it able to rotate free of the crank?

The EGR and EGR solenoid are brand new. I was wondering if I put the wiring wrong, could I have burnt out the EGR solenoid? I can buy a new solenoid as the valve itself appears all metal. The EGR tube didn't seem gummed up or anything...
Take a look at the pic of the balancer. Do you see how there are two pieces of metal with a gap? That gap is actually a rubber ring.
The idea is that the rubber absorbs crank vibrations and allows the two pieces of metal to go out of phase by as much as 1-2 degrees.
http://www.underhoodservice.com/harm...ers-fail-look/

Heat, age, oil, etc can all break down this rubber. Even if it looks good, it could have slipped and permanently put the outer ring slightly out of phase from the inner hub. MadMikey's instructions helps you find true TDC and allows you to inspect where you are on the balancer. TDC on Cyl #1 should be 0 degrees.

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post #35 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 05:48 PM
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The balancer consists of an inner metal hub, and an outer metal ring, bonded together with a rubber sleeve in between. As the rubber gets old and dries out, the outer ring could potentially slip relative to the inner hub. Since all the timing marks are on the outer ring, if it slips, your timing marks will no longer be accurate.

As for the EGR, unless you were cutting and splicing different wires together, there is no way to plug it in wrong, and even if you somehow did manage that, it would be throwing EGR codes, since all that system uses is a position sensor on the EGR valve.

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post #36 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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Balancer a DIY project ? Ummm maybe not according to Google.
Went and looked at it... seems nice and tight. I do recall that each time I set the timing, it's right where I left it before with the spout connector not in place.....

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post #37 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 08:24 PM
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It will seem tight by hand. The way I explained before is the only way to tell whether it has slipped.

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post #38 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 07:55 AM Thread Starter
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I agree and I see (feel) some signs of PERHAPS it being it There's a vibration around 65-70mph (tires balanced TWICE). But I plan on checking the timing when I get home, engine warm. If it's still at 10° I'd be a little hesitant to say it's that. But I'm up for anything.

How much to have that replaced at a shop you think? My slanted driveway and no lift makes some of these jobs a PITA!
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post #39 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 10:57 AM
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You can't tell the actual timing unless you do as I said. Just because it slipped one time does not mean that it will always be slipping. If it moved once, it could stay in that position for years. The fact of the matter is you have no idea what your base timing is set at right now. It could be 10 degrees BTDC, it could be 25 degrees BTDC. The reading on the balancer is meaningless until you confirm that the 25 year old balancer is good. Stop guessing at the problem and start testing things, and you will find you will waste a lot less time and money replacing or repairing things that may not have been needed. So far you have un-necessarily replaced at least the injectors and EGR, and probably didn't need to replace the ACT, AC clutch, or belt tensioner and idler either. That means you have wasted no less than $200 and 4 hours of your time to not be any closer to fixing the problem. The test I explained should take no more than an hour, and will allow you to be sure of the ignition timing before going further. Since a slipped balancer is quite common on older vehicles, and since incorrect ignition timing is the most common cause of pinging in a stock engine that is otherwise in good running condition, this is where you should start. Once you know where on the balancer actual TDC falls, you will be able to account for that and dial in the correct ignition timing. Until you do that, anything and everything else you do to the car is a waste of time and money.

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post #40 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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Tensioner pulley and idler pulley and ac pulley were worn out so no, that wasn't a waste of time. Fuel injectors were bought specifically knowing they were balanced to each other. Spark plugs and wires were just simple maintenance items which took no time at all to do. ACT had carbon build up all over it. EGR and other...well it's my money and my time so I'm not a bit concerned about replacing them. I know now how old they are and to me that's worth the effort. I like working on the car and each time I do I learn more.

So what's left...the balancer or PERHAPS carbon buildup in engine causing ignition...

Knowing that the pulleys were all worn I totally agree the balancer is a prime suspect. I'll happily pay my mechanic to swap it out. Instant piece of mind.
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post #41 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:02 PM
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Or just turn back your timing until the pinging stops and see if you are satisfied with performance.

You know how to do it so it's pretty much free.

FYI
I used to run premium in my Pinto when it was a buck a gallon in the 90's. I advanced the timing on it to max out performance. I'd get 28mpg in my 1983 model compared to 24mpg in my 2005 Honda CRV.

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post #42 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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that's an option too..!
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post #43 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Natesriv View Post
Tensioner pulley and idler pulley and ac pulley were worn out so no, that wasn't a waste of time. Fuel injectors were bought specifically knowing they were balanced to each other. Spark plugs and wires were just simple maintenance items which took no time at all to do. ACT had carbon build up all over it. EGR and other...well it's my money and my time so I'm not a bit concerned about replacing them. I know now how old they are and to me that's worth the effort. I like working on the car and each time I do I learn more.

So what's left...the balancer or PERHAPS carbon buildup in engine causing ignition...

Knowing that the pulleys were all worn I totally agree the balancer is a prime suspect. I'll happily pay my mechanic to swap it out. Instant piece of mind.

Replacing the balancer is a very simple job. The trickiest part might be getting enough room to work on it if you have a stock fan/radiator in place. I removed those immediately (switched to low profile electric fans) so I have no idea how much room there is.
He's done by 4:30




If you don't have a specific tool, often you can get them from Autozone for free under their loan a tool program. See:
OEM Harmonic balancer puller kit 27019 - Read 6 Reviews on OEM #27019
OEM Compression Tester Gauge Set 27138 - Read 3 Reviews on OEM #27138

Ignore the shit reviews, I have used both of these for my 5.0 tbird and liked them enough to keep them for use in the future.

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post #44 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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yeah it seems rather easy.. I'd have to remove the fan and the shroud but that'd free up a lot of room!
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post #45 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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bottom video...ingenious idea!
ordered a balancer yesterday. Will swap out on one of my Friday's off. Piece of mind!
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post #46 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 01:01 PM
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Not sure how much clearance the Fords with 5.0's have, but a glance of that video makes me think the radiator is also coming out for that job, like on a lot of cars.

But on a brighter note, there is a little port beside the radiator petcock that you can sort of attach a piece of hose to. Makes getting the coolant into a bucket a lot more straightforward than letting it run across the plastic shroud until it drips down in like 5 places!

It only took me 15 yrs to notice that port, that little bugger is easy to miss. It sure doesn't look like a drain port at a glance, they could have put a little hose on that fucker!

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post #47 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah I found that port when I changed the coolant, AFTER I made a mess!! I put a piece of rubber hose on it, so next time it'll go straight into the container.
I THINK there's enough room once the fan and shroud are off....
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post #48 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 03:54 PM
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If the radiators not there, I know for a fact you can hit it with a full sized impact gun and take that bolt right off without any drama.
I wouldn't tighten with the gun though.

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post #49 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 05:15 PM
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Looking at the pic of the ACT, how did that get that dirty?

Was it run without a filter?

If it's that bad, what does the MAF look like?

I'd wash the entire inlet tube out with dawn and a scrub brush, if it were me.

How does the throttle body look inside?

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post #50 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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If the radiators not there, I know for a fact you can hit it with a full sized impact gun and take that bolt right off without any drama.
I wouldn't tighten with the gun though.
I've got a steering wheel puller I THINK might do the trick.

THAT MIGHT NOT WORK...THE BOLTS AREN'T CENTERED AROUND THE PULLEY

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post #51 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Looking at the pic of the ACT, how did that get that dirty?

Was it run without a filter?

If it's that bad, what does the MAF look like?

I'd wash the entire inlet tube out with dawn and a scrub brush, if it were me.

How does the throttle body look inside?
ACT is located in the UIM, so it got exposed to all that area. Car has a good air filter. The MAF was fine. I've cleaned it twice with MAF cleaner.. I sprayed the throttle body a couple of times. When I had the plenum off I gave it a good cleansing too.

I think the ACT was so bad since it's been there, most likely since 1992.
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post #52 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 06:34 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Yeah, I get it now; the inside of any intake looks like that from the oil in the pcv and egr being recycled thru it.

I put a separator in the pcv line; haven't figured out the egr one at all.

It's at exhaust temp, hard to attach a canister to.

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post #53 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-20-2017, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE:
Vacuum gauge (attached to hose at brake booster), reads right at normal (50'ish) at idle. No evidence of vacuum leak. Car fully warmed.

Harmonic balancer here, will install this weekend.

Also have a compression gauge I can do a test. What fuse do I pull to disable the fuel pump?
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My buddies at work think it's valve clatter? Do we have "valve clatter" in the 93's?
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post #55 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:35 AM
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UPDATE:
Vacuum gauge (attached to hose at brake booster), reads right at normal (50'ish) at idle. No evidence of vacuum leak. Car fully warmed.

Harmonic balancer here, will install this weekend.

Also have a compression gauge I can do a test. What fuse do I pull to disable the fuel pump?
Easy way to disable fuel pump temporarily is to pop the inertia switch on the left side of the trunk.
It's there to cutoff fuel case of a serious accident/rollover.
You can reach in there and pop it manually
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post #56 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:02 AM
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UPDATE:
Vacuum gauge (attached to hose at brake booster), reads right at normal (50'ish) at idle. No evidence of vacuum leak. Car fully warmed.
50'ish what?

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post #57 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 07:50 AM
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My buddies at work think it's valve clatter? Do we have "valve clatter" in the 93's?
You're dissecting it too much. It's pre-ignition, otherwise known as pinging. But it must be pretty bad if it's that loud.

IF it did it all the time, then you could start looking at other things. By the way you described it, the symptoms always happened when the car was under a serious load, so it's pinging.

I would pull that octane spout ASAP. Keep you from tearing something up until you get it ironed out.

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post #58 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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50'ish what?
I'll post a pic of the gauge face... it has a green zone denoting "normal"



Just like that above
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post #59 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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Age: 47
Posts: 312
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
You're dissecting it too much. It's pre-ignition, otherwise known as pinging. But it must be pretty bad if it's that loud.

IF it did it all the time, then you could start looking at other things. By the way you described it, the symptoms always happened when the car was under a serious load, so it's pinging.

I would pull that octane spout ASAP. Keep you from tearing something up until you get it ironed out.

Al
Run it without the timing spout in?
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post #60 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Kansas City
Age: 47
Posts: 312
Garage
UPDATE #2
Changed the oil, oil filter (the filter on there was old enough to have its paint peeling off), and the air filter. Also put in some Motor Medic, Valve Medic to quite out possible valve noise (keep in mind, I haven't a clue when the oil was last changed).



Set the timing back to 5° (with the spout out...I'm getting good enough at setting timing almost to do it blindfolded)..

Tightened the EGR valve plug connectors so they make better contact with the EGR valve. It'd been tripping a CE which I suspect was my rearranging the connectors too many times. No CE's now.

Went for a nice 20 mile drive... no noise. No pinging.. sounded much smoother.

Keep in mind it's in the 50's, so the cooler air may be playing a role... but as for now, there's no noise.

Things left to do:
Replace the harmonoic balancer. Regardless of if the OEM is good or not, I've got one from Rock Auto and I'll DIY it this weekend.

So, so far good news...
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