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post #1 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Chasing that pinging/rattling

Today I put in new spark plugs/wires and new fuel injectors (refurbed, 19lb)..oh and a new fuel filter.



Everything went fine... runs good.

However, I'm still hearing pinging/rattling under two conditions
1: Modertly low throttle I'll hear faint pinging, lets up the second I lift off the throttle

2: Punching it... once I'm flooring it, getting to about 80 it pings/rattles quite loudly. Sounds like it's coming from the left side which would include that fuel rail AND the power steering pump.

I've replaced the tensioner, idler and the a/c coil/pulley and clutch. I do notice a lot of end slap in the power steering pulley.

So my only ideas about what's the pinging:
1: bad power steering pump
2: actual lean condition so it's real pinging (fuel pressure checks out at idle & key off)

3: timing chain rattle


The car only has 83k miles, so I don't see where a timing chain could be part of it.

Thoughts and ideas welcome!

Thanks!
N
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post #2 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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Next week she's going in to get tranny flushed, alignment and double check wheel balance. I'll see if they can check the timing too. Just in case.

It only does that LOUD ping under really pedal to the metal... which I don't do hardly ever.
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post #3 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 03:46 PM
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Don't do pedal to the medal!

Set your ignition timing also, back to factory standard, and see how that affects it.

Have you cleaned your MAF yet? That's always a good first shot on ping conditions.

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post #4 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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That pedal to the metal was only twice to about 80 then off. NO more of that until timing set. I hardly ever punch it beyond the downshift to pass someone. Not Road Warrior escape velocity
I don't have a timing light to set anything.... What is factory? 10° BTDC?

MAF cleaned awhile ago.. I'll clean again tomorrow.
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post #5 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 06:49 PM
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Factory should be on the emissions label under the hood; also, it's in the factory service manual.

For my 1991 5.0, it's 10* BTDC, with the timing plug pulled (to disable ECU advance).

You CAN run it 12* to 14*, but by 14* you're hard into "What? You only have 91 octane? I'll blow my motor!!!" level if anything else isn't quite right.

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post #6 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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No stickers/labels under the hood. I do have the nanuals though. Pretty sure its 10°
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post #7 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-02-2017, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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I'm going to borrow a buddies timing light. I looked at the flywheel and saw the markings for 10. There are two. The flywheel moves clockwise when the car is running, so I should set my timing to the 1st 10° I see? 0° must be TDC.

Also, the spout connector is located on the firewall, passenger side. I can see it, but just want to be sure.

Thanks guys!
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post #8 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-02-2017, 03:26 PM
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Well, you can cheat if the timing light has the timing advance knob; set the knob for 10* and clock to 0* on the display; then set back to 0* on the knob and that one is the 10* one. I think you're right, but I cheated a bit; my harmonic balancer has a Mr. Gasket timing tape on it.

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post #9 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-02-2017, 03:27 PM
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Maybe I missed it, but what are running for gas in it?

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post #10 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodeo Joe View Post
Maybe I missed it, but what are running for gas in it?

Joe
No ethanol 91 premium, the normal 85 octane was pinging pretty badly.

Man, it's really HARD to see the timing mark indicator down in the engine bay...
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post #11 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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The 10° BTDC mark is just a little bit ahead of the "TIMING" text stamped into the indicator. Maybe 1/8". I need to make a finer line RIGHT on the 10° mark.

Will I be able to fine tune that 1/8" to be closer to the actual indicator position?

Thanks!
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post #12 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 08:09 PM
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Yes. Just turn the distributor.

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post #13 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 06:49 AM Thread Starter
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Well a duh!

I mean for like 2 or less degree adjustments? (never have done it before)

Do they make a fully electronic system for a 93 5.0 that needs no adjustments ever?

Thanks for the help gang!

I'm thinking I'm currently at 7-8° BTDC
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post #14 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 12:07 PM
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You could rewire and convert to the later Explorer 5.0 setup; but you'll still need to do the initial setup on the cam sensor.

Also, 2* isn't that critical.

Plus - I'll bet MORe than 7 to 8 BTDC.

Which begs another question - what kind of shape is your harmonic balancer in? It may be failing, slipping, and as a result your ignition timing may be off (because it's been reset).

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post #15 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Not a clue... How does one check that?

I've had the engine running and looked down there, I haven't seen any wobble or out of round condition...

Revs in neutral without any vibration...

Last edited by Natesriv; 04-04-2017 at 02:54 PM.
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post #16 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 05:45 PM
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No vibration is probably good; but the only sure way is to pull the pulley and examine it.

At the age of these motors, however, I'd table it for when you decide to do the timing chain and gears; I'd just put a new balancer on at that time.

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post #17 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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I'm 99% sure I'm the 3rd owner. The previous owner (husband and wife) were born in 1929 and 1930...and that's not a typo! They lost some paperwork from 1999 behind the glovebox. So the guy was 70 when it was registered with 25,000 miles. Gives me a warm fuzzy that he didn't tear it up.. Older people are more likely to take cars in for service properly.

Knowing that, I'm not surprised it's still good. But the other factor to consider is TIME... I've no clue how long the car was idle the last 17 years. With that mileage, that's like 3-4k a year... to get to my current 83K

So I agree, it's not time to tear into that just yet.
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post #18 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
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Well a duh!

I mean for like 2 or less degree adjustments? (never have done it before)
If you tried it you'd quickly learn that, yes, it is not difficult to dial in base timing.

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post #19 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Doing it this Friday, as we're just having rain ALL the time now it seems
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post #20 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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Edited out

Last edited by Natesriv; 04-06-2017 at 08:16 PM.
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post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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About the balancer...at idle it hovers around 12-13°....it's not rock steady. Looking at the spin of the balancer, I don't see wobble, but it's not a smooth spin but I suppose it's because it's not the same width around the circumference. So as far as I know, it's totally fine.
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post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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Well, looking at more videos... Should I set it to 10° with the spout connector out. Then tighten dist back down, put plug back in, check again and if it's PAST 10° that's what it should be?? With the spout in, it's right at about 12-15° at idle..........

Runs fine, but just DOUBLE checking.

I'm using a regular inductive timing light btw..not knobs or adjustments
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post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Start the engine and bring it to operating temperature.
Using the timing light, set initial to the setting you would like to test, rotating the distributor CW will advance timing, and CCW will retard timing. 10° BTDC is the stock setting, but you may want to check if 12° BTDC or 14° BTDC will work for more power.
Tighten distributor base bolt and confirm setting did not change.
Reconnect the SPOUT jumper plug into the connector.
Check timing change with the timing light, the reading should be between 20° - 24° BTDC = sign the computer is controlling spark advance.


From the web...for EFI 5.0's
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post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Still getting a little bit of pinging... light moderate acceleration, nothing on WOT.
Today I replaced the ACT sensor. Boy was the old one gunked up!


Still a little, but since I've reset the timing (again to 10° BTDC), cleaned the MAF and put in a new ACT, I'll unplug the battery - tonight to clear any fuel trim levels and start fresh. I suspect it'll take a couple of days of driving for the system to settle down and work.

What pinging there is now is very light...and from what I read, it's a fine balance to keep these engines at peak.... fun to work on though!
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post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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Well, I'm stumped!
It doesn't ping when the engine's cold. It'll ping when it's fully warmed up. It's not over the top, but you can hear it in the background at about 3/4th throttle, like going up a hill & such.

I've set the timing to 10° spot on..it advances.
My balancer looks fine
New EGR and ACT
New plugs, wires & fuel injectors
New PCV and cleaned PCV mesh
Separated plug wires 2 & 4 and 7 & 8 on wire looms

Not sure what it could be I hear possibilites
1: valve clatter
2: manifold cracks
3: vacuum leaks

I've no evidence to support any of those... 98% of time the car runs just fine...it's just those press the throttle moments...

aaargh!
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post #26 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 11:23 AM
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The ECU will always advance timing with the SPOUT connector plugged in..

Remove the SPOUT connecter, and retard your timing 5°
Then after you do that, reinsert the SPOUT connector and go for a "spirited" drive..

Basically, you want to duplicate the same driving conditions you had before..When you heard the *pinging

Your ECU is advancing the timing too much for the octane of fuel you're using, so compensate..

If for some reason, after you've retarded the timing 5°..You're still getting the *pinging, retard it a few degrees more..

It's imperative, that when you set the timing..The SPOUT connector is removed

I suspect your Harmonic Balancer has slipped on you, and you're running more timing than you think..

Report back, with your findings..






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post #27 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 02:24 PM
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OP:
Since I see that the root cause issue you are trying to solve is related to timing under load:

1) How long have you had the car? Are you certain it's not bad gas?
2) Have you done a vacuum test? If you are reading low vacuum at idle, it's time to find the leak. The gaskets, a manifold crack, or even the valves being leaky could cause this issue
If you have the intake off, take the valve covers off and:
- See if you have any play in the rocker arms
- Loosen the rocker arms so the valves are shut (tap the springs with the mallet) and redo the vacuum test to see if the leak is at the valves.
See my experience: Issue Solved - engine bucking/surging at partial throttle
3) have you done a compression test?
4) Do you have a real oil pressure gauge? Low oil pressure could be a sign of really worn bearings which could lead to knocking. The condition of your bottom end is not something you can confirm without pulling the oil pan off but confirming your oil pressure is a good indicator to see how worn out your engine may actually be.

Keep in mind that even though you think it's a "fresh" engine b/c it only has 85K mi on it, this was an engine architecture that was designed in the 60s and back then, they did not expect an engine to last this long. This is no honda and it's been my experience that my 5.0 engines were due for a rebuild (low compression, felt down on power) by 95K mi even though one of them was owned by an old man. Sure, he might have paid for maintenance whenever someone told him he should have something done but he probably also forgot to do some maintenance.

Your already most of the way to 100K and a harmonic balancer that has slipped slightly is a very real possibility. IMO, Rayo's suggstion makes sense.

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post #28 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 02:27 PM
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Another idea: You mentioned new EGR - did you mean the valve?
- Was the pipe gunked up as well?
- I only know this academically b/c I don't have this on my car anymore but I seem to recall that a closed EGR could cause knocking. A real professional mechanic like madmikey could confirm this theory.

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post #29 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Another idea: You mentioned new EGR - did you mean the valve?
- Was the pipe gunked up as well?
- I only know this academically b/c I don't have this on my car anymore but I seem to recall that a closed EGR could cause knocking. A real professional mechanic like madmikey could confirm this theory.
Whole thing (not the pipe though, it appeared fine). The valve and the solenoid. That was the post I did a while back about the wiring to the plug...did I have the right wires to the right spot.. I think I do.
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post #30 of 77 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
OP:
Since I see that the root cause issue you are trying to solve is related to timing under load:

1) How long have you had the car? Are you certain it's not bad gas?
2) Have you done a vacuum test? If you are reading low vacuum at idle, it's time to find the leak. The gaskets, a manifold crack, or even the valves being leaky could cause this issue
If you have the intake off, take the valve covers off and:
- See if you have any play in the rocker arms
- Loosen the rocker arms so the valves are shut (tap the springs with the mallet) and redo the vacuum test to see if the leak is at the valves.
See my experience: Issue Solved - engine bucking/surging at partial throttle
3) have you done a compression test?
4) Do you have a real oil pressure gauge? Low oil pressure could be a sign of really worn bearings which could lead to knocking. The condition of your bottom end is not something you can confirm without pulling the oil pan off but confirming your oil pressure is a good indicator to see how worn out your engine may actually be.

Keep in mind that even though you think it's a "fresh" engine b/c it only has 85K mi on it, this was an engine architecture that was designed in the 60s and back then, they did not expect an engine to last this long. This is no honda and it's been my experience that my 5.0 engines were due for a rebuild (low compression, felt down on power) by 95K mi even though one of them was owned by an old man. Sure, he might have paid for maintenance whenever someone told him he should have something done but he probably also forgot to do some maintenance.

Your already most of the way to 100K and a harmonic balancer that has slipped slightly is a very real possibility. IMO, Rayo's suggstion makes sense.

Had since Jan, 2017. Owned by older couples... I see some service history in the "carfax" I used. All the recalls seem up to date. No compression tester. The oil pressure seems fine (the dash gauge shows it towards the high end)

No vacuum gauge either... I've looked the top end over to find any hint of a cracked hose... I did put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail. It reads within spec and holds pressure for hours after I turn the car off. Eventually falling to 0.
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