The 3 degrees of Power adding on the 3.8L! - TCCoA Forums

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 11-11-2002, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
Moderator
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Eveleth MN
Age: 37
Posts: 1,921
The 3 degrees of Power adding on the 3.8L!

Step One, Basic Bolt-ons
1. REMOVE the air silencer and fabricate some form of cold air induction
2. Underdrive Pulley/ the MOST HP PER DOLLAR around 7rwhp for 70$
3. A chip for the 89-95's or a Xcal 2 for the 96-97's from your favorite SCT dealer.
4. WHEN adding a chip, get it burnt for Colder plugs and 180* t-stat (32C motorcraft or 764 Autolite plugs) and install them at the same time
5. Transmission Modifications (look in the TCCOA tech section for "seperator plate modification") Just DO IT!
6. NEVER use any product called "tornado" or "electric supercharger"

Step Two, Advanced Bolt-ons
1. HEADS/ Ported heads from various sources 12-30rwhp gains possible with the different stages avalible
2. Intakes/ Same as ported heads, lots of people do them, 5-10 rwhp
3. Camshaft/ Stock springs can support .480 lift but SHOULD be replaced anyhow. don't go too nuts here, no more than 210 intake 220 exhaust or you WILL lose LOTS of low end torque. Gains from 5-35+ rwhp depending on your heads, intakes, and power adders.
4. Drive train/ At this point I suggest upgrading to 8.8" rear diff with 3.73 or 4.10 gears and trac-lok. Think about supercoupe 1/2 shafts also.
5. Exhaust/ I recommend a dual 2" into single 2.5" split to dual 2.25" out the back at this stage, your choice of mufflers. should be sufficent to support power adders later on also. Dual 2" all the way back work also

Step Three, doing the Wild Thing with power adders
1. Supercharger/ Centrifical Style like a Vortech or Procharger are prefered IF you plan on using the stock shortblock, no more than 9psi
2. Nitrous Oxide / Cheap Horsepower that works well with a stock engine when used in MODERATION! Start with a 50 shot and work up to a 75 shot.
3. Turbocharger/ the MOST Difficult to install, BUT the most effecent of them all
4. Forged "internals" / custom Rods and pistons and even a 4.2L stroker for more power and BOOST (boost isn't everything though)
5. Tuning, its ALL IN THE TUNE, get your self to a tune session to MAKE SURE your engine is working properly with your choice of power adder! (nothing like a hole in your piston to ruin a good weekend due to a bad tune)
6. You CAN go with any of the power adders on a stock engine also, but you will get SO MUCH more out of them with ported heads, intakes, and a cam!

1996 Thunderbird LX 3.8L
-255rwhp 273rwtq-
-Vortech V1 S-trim supercharger@8psi, aftercooled-
-Built 4R70W W/3200rpm PI
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
-stock, stock, big dent, and more stock-

Last edited by rancherlee; 01-26-2006 at 07:16 PM.
rancherlee is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-16-2002, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
Moderator
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Eveleth MN
Age: 37
Posts: 1,921
I'm making 165rwhp/212 rwtq right now, with the vortech installed 240rwhp/270rwtq is a VERY safe estimate on how much it will put to the wheels. I've got a custom Sheetmetal upper intake I want to try on the dyno to see if it provides any gains also.

1996 Thunderbird LX 3.8L
-255rwhp 273rwtq-
-Vortech V1 S-trim supercharger@8psi, aftercooled-
-Built 4R70W W/3200rpm PI
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
-stock, stock, big dent, and more stock-
rancherlee is offline  
post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2003, 11:35 AM
Motorboatin' SOB
Headlight Cleaning Guru
 
big mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: H-town, TX
Posts: 6,910
Send a message via AIM to big mike
hey rancher

im a little confused about the muffler sizes you mentioned in step 2. are you referring to a muffler that has a 2.5" inlet and dual 2.25" (or 2") outlets? or is it a muff that has dual 2" inlets and a 2.5" outlet? i just want to get that cleared up. thanks.

mike

2014 GT
1990 300ZX TT
big mike is offline  
 
post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2003, 12:49 PM
Flying Thunder
 
weswing04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Stillwater, OK
Age: 31
Posts: 2,556
Send a message via AIM to weswing04 Send a message via Yahoo to weswing04
he means you have 2" true duals then y'd to a single 2.5" pipe through the gas tank area (not much room there), then split to dual 2.25" pipe with whatever mufflers you want.
weswing04 is offline  
post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2003, 05:49 PM
Motorboatin' SOB
Headlight Cleaning Guru
 
big mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: H-town, TX
Posts: 6,910
Send a message via AIM to big mike
ok guys i did some researching, now i have some questions.

how would the flow resonator made for a tbird (pt#15100) sound with dual pipes out the back?

also, if that flow res. doesnt work, then which muffler do you guys recommend for my car? a catback would be too expensive for me, and i dont think i would like the idea of having two mufflers at the rear of the car. i want to have just one muffer in place of the stock resonator.

96-3.8lx - which flow 40 do you have (part # or diameter of inlet/outlet please)?

jim - same ques, but which super turbo do you have?

thanks guys.

2014 GT
1990 300ZX TT
big mike is offline  
post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2003, 05:56 PM
Flying Thunder
 
weswing04's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Stillwater, OK
Age: 31
Posts: 2,556
Send a message via AIM to weswing04 Send a message via Yahoo to weswing04
I have the flowmaster 40 series (delta flow), 2.25" offset inlet, center outlet.
weswing04 is offline  
post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-09-2003, 07:30 PM
4th Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: York, Pa
Age: 36
Posts: 271
Send a message via AIM to Bacondoggy
Re: The 3 degrees of Power adding on the 3.8L!

Quote:
Originally posted by rancherlee
Step One, Basic Bolt-ons

4. WHEN adding a chip, get it burnt for Colder plugs and 180* t-stat (22C motorcraft plugs) and install them at the same time
7. Flex's world famous phenolic spacers (happy flex?)

Step Two, Advanced Bolt-ons

5. Exhaust/ I recommend a dual 2" into single 2.5" split to dual 2.25" out the back at this stage, your choice of mufflers. should be sufficent to support power adders later on also. Dual 2" all the way back work also

Step Three, doing the Wild Thing with power adders
1. Supercharger/ Centrifical Style like a Vortech or Procharger are prefered IF you plan on using the stock shortblock, no more than 9psi
2. Nitrous Oxide / Cheap Horsepower that works well with a stock engine when used in MODERATION! Start with a 50 shot and work up to a 75 shot.
3. Turbocharger/ the MOST Difficult to install, BUT the most effecent of them all
ok lots of questions here. would it be a good idea for SC people to put colder plugs in since their compression ratio is alot higher? and how does this improve performance?
What are Flex's spacers?? like where do they go how do they work (I know what a spacer is)
I think the exhaust tubes could be alittle too big unless you are having SERIOUS gains in HP because the with won't be utilized and that gasses will actually move slower out the car even though you have more flow (even racing engines use tubes with the width porportional to the hp - and it is usually smaller then you think) supercharger AND nitrous.... no no no no - I am not a fan of nitrous - even just the little shots I want my engine lasting longer then a few oil changes Why do you say Turbo's are the most efficient? I mean I know they go off exhaust gasses instead of being belt driven, but SC's give you more lower-end tourque where we need it (havey cars) we get most our power in the mid-high range already and our redline isn't 7-8000 like the ricers so we wouldn't really make use of the turbo... I was told it is pointless to have a turbo and SC on the same engine - I guess because only a certain amount of air can be pulled (forced) into your engine???

91 sc - put the stockgears back on, underdrive pullyes, rear air hydraulics, headers, no cats or resonator, lowered 1 1/2", 10% pulley, cam, 70k, rebuilt engine bored .30 over, finally fixed!
Bacondoggy is offline  
post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-11-2003, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
Moderator
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Eveleth MN
Age: 37
Posts: 1,921
Turbos are efficient. I could design a turbo system for a 3.8L that would hit 10psi boost by 2500rpm and maintain that boost past 5500rpm, with NO lag. For ANY car/truck a turbo will almost always be a better option if you have the room/money/skills to set up a turbo.

A Eaton Roots supercharger will eat up 40-50 hp to make 11-12psi boost on a 3.8L and properly sized turbo setup will only cost about 10hp to make the smae amount of boost/power, you don't need RPM's to make a turbo work well. A eaton may be instant power off the line but a turbo isn't very close behind, on the otherhand a Vortech style supercharger is way behind in the low end boost department, lucky to make 2-3psi @3000rpm but thanks to stall converters you can get into the boost off the line if need be.

1996 Thunderbird LX 3.8L
-255rwhp 273rwtq-
-Vortech V1 S-trim supercharger@8psi, aftercooled-
-Built 4R70W W/3200rpm PI
1997 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC
-stock, stock, big dent, and more stock-

Last edited by Thomas; 09-26-2009 at 09:47 PM.
rancherlee is offline  
post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-15-2003, 01:38 PM
3rd Gear Poster
 
96pearlV8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nashville, TN and Miami,FL
Age: 34
Posts: 143
Send a message via AIM to 96pearlV8
Sorry, I know I'm a V8 guy posting in the V6 forum, but power adders in principle work the same on nearly every engine. That being said...

I've only heard of maybe 2 people with turbo setups on our later model Birds, and for good reason.

It's a buttwad of a lot more work. Anybody can drop a supercharger (belt-driven) on top of an engine. the belt's right there in the front to run off your pulley system and the compressed air runs right out of the back of the 'charger into the intake. Easy as pie.
A turbocharger, on the other hand, is exhaust driven. (I can't believe we're still going over this) This is a big plumbing problem. The engine's exhaust must be routed to run through one side of the 'charger while intake air is compressed by fans/turbines on the other side. It's hard to route all those pipes for it to work, and you also end up heating your intake charge (engine exhaust is hot, because the air was JUST ON FIRE!) a lot more than with a normal intake, or even a supercharger, hence the need for INTERCOOLERS on some cars.

A turbo charger is much more efficient than a supercharger, but it takes a lot more work and engineering than a supercharger. This is why we choose to save that extra couple grand and all the headache and go with a little more inefficient design but with still very respectable HP gains.

Any questions? The "search" feature is your friend.

James

1.375" front and 1.25" rear swaybars (pretty rough ride)
Premier 940 MP3/WMA CDplayer
2 Infinity Reference 12" subs, 5 farad capacitor 1600w of amps Alpine speakers all around
Legendary 3" Cobra Cowl hood, TBird decals
Smashed up driver's door. Lemme know if you got a spare one!
96pearlV8 is offline  
post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 09:52 PM
Seasoned PostWhore
 
JoeyICU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Syskesville MD
Age: 31
Posts: 2,803
Garage
big question out of pure love for birds and making things go fast that people woulndt expect, runing high 14s in a 3.8 bird, how much would it cost, if one where to only expect that much out of the car, say, gears, exhaust intake work (manifold tb, and tb forwards) with a tune and a diffrent tc, just to clear all that ramble up, could that put a 3.8 bird into the high 14s. what about those mods on a 5speed (of coarse minus the tc) on a3.8 non split port mustang?

1995 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 LX
2011 BMX X5 Xdrive50i
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L-Her stock DD
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.2L AWD - Cooling work, a big sound system, an exhaust, 3.5" IRO lift on 31s
1984 Ford F250 6.9 IDIT
JoeyICU is offline  
post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-07-2005, 11:38 PM
Moderator
Iowa Chapter Director
Uber Luber
TCCoAAC Member
Moderator
 
Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ames, Iowa
Age: 33
Posts: 8,978
I truly think a correctly spec'd cam, mildly ported heads, intakes, high stall converter, and 3.73's could get you there. I'm working on the tranny right now, I'm hoping that without it I can run 14's and with well...obviously faster.
-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
2003 SVT Focus: - SCT X3 tuner
Thomas is offline  
post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 07:19 AM
RGR
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
I truly think a correctly spec'd cam, mildly ported heads, intakes, high stall converter, and 3.73's could get you there. I'm working on the tranny right now, I'm hoping that without it I can run 14's and with well...obviously faster.
-Thomas
Thomas, would you list your cam specs here again?
I remember it was a big lift on "moderate" duration,
was it the 215*/.576" intake lobe?

or were you running 1.8's?

Oldest V6 Mustang shop in the U.S.
NOW Helping the DIY'er with free combo/cam specs!!!
RGR is offline  
post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 10:55 AM
Moderator
Iowa Chapter Director
Uber Luber
TCCoAAC Member
Moderator
 
Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ames, Iowa
Age: 33
Posts: 8,978
i dont know exactly you never gave me specifics. It is a 215/220 with 1.8's and you said it'd make .600" lift on the exhaust side. If you know the rest of the info I'd love to have it.
-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
2003 SVT Focus: - SCT X3 tuner
Thomas is offline  
post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-08-2005, 11:29 AM
RGR
2nd Gear Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 90
OK, here's what I have now, I have to find more but I know where it is.
1.8 RR's

215*/220* I/E
.599"/.560" lifts I?E (which is kewl, even BV exhausts run out of flow around that limit)

[LATER]
I found the cam card, you have just over 110* LCA, 5* advance and the
overlap is -5* at .050" lift, This makes it work for emissions and boost both.
Not bad for a combo cam, a guy I helped on some stuff is running a turbo with a cam
similar to this and it works rather well! He has more duration all around, but
I like your lifts and splits better, lots better. He really has an SC grind for his setup IMO.

The extra duration on the exhaust will offset the lower lift. Not the best way I like
to do it, but a good compromise when you only have a few lobes to choose from, and
that old grinder has VERY few lobes to choose from. Under 40 lobes and many of them
are under 200* and over 230* which is quite small and large for most engines.
5 are under 200* and 6 are over 230 * out of 38 total lobes.

I have new grind lists now, and will access any grinder that it takes to get
a cam to my specs. Regrind costs vary widely, but it is worth it to get great lobes.

Oldest V6 Mustang shop in the U.S.
NOW Helping the DIY'er with free combo/cam specs!!!
RGR is offline  
post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-22-2005, 03:26 PM
5th Gear Poster
 
Birdman232's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Mid-Tenn
Age: 32
Posts: 466
Ive been thinking about the 1:80 bolt on rockers, But how do I install the roller rockers? Do I have to adjsut anything for the bolt on ones? Or do I jsut pull out the old rockers and jsut install these in their place? Do I need to rotate each cyl to TDC and then bolt them on, or just bolt them on then put the covers on and go?

I understand the stock ones at 1:73 so these 1:80 rollers would be like installing a slightly larger cam correct? Do I really gain the 20 or so HP from this? Or more realisticially around 10?


I'm getting to the point that I can keep up w/ the v6 mustangs around here and I'm happy, but i havent done much work yet. Ud pullies, chip, colderplugs/thermostat, exhaust work, and I'll be getting a PA street/strip manaual valve body soon for my 97. But I jsut need that little umph to get me past them. Would this really make any kind of a noticibal difference?
Birdman232 is offline  
post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-22-2005, 09:56 PM
Moderator
Iowa Chapter Director
Uber Luber
TCCoAAC Member
Moderator
 
Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ames, Iowa
Age: 33
Posts: 8,978
the 1.8's made a difference for me. I felt slightly more torque and the top end power was very noticable. Passing power on the highway was the place I noticed it most. Yes, the higher ratio does act as a mild cam.

Yes they just bolt right on, rotate each cylinder to TDC them bolt them on and torque them down to 22ft/lbs. I go through them twice just to ensure they're all tight (had an incident where one fell off while driving...oops.)

-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
2003 SVT Focus: - SCT X3 tuner
Thomas is offline  
post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 06-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Newbie
 
92 iris blue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: oregon
Age: 35
Posts: 6
I put factory mustang headders and true dual exhaust all the way back with Dynomax superturbo muffs. no resenator, sounds good felt a good diference in power. One thing though you will need to modify the drivers side hedder so it dosent hit the stearing (just a little grinding)
92 iris blue is offline  
post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-26-2009, 09:43 PM
Moderator
Iowa Chapter Director
Uber Luber
TCCoAAC Member
Moderator
 
Thomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ames, Iowa
Age: 33
Posts: 8,978
This thread is long over due for a good cleaning

Ahh... thats better. Now it's getting locked. This thread is now for reference only. If you have any questions, concerns, ideas. PM me. Thanks.
-Thomas

1988 Notch Mustang: - 438W, direct port n2o, t56
2003 SVT Focus: - SCT X3 tuner

Last edited by Thomas; 09-26-2009 at 10:06 PM.
Thomas is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the TCCoA Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome