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Stick Shift.

18K views 110 replies 17 participants last post by  JoeyICU 
#1 ·
I know every bench racing n00b tard in the world use to tend to come on here and make a lot of fuss over doing nothing but I need to talk some actual specifics. I don't want to get into the maybe and the possibilities, I would like to know what works and go with it. I don't want to be ground breaking, I want that slushbox out, a manual transmission matches what I want to do with the car far better then an auto does. The me of 10 years ago when I last had a mn12 loved me some auto's but that was when I just couldn't afford a mustang. I could afford one now, just don't wanna.

Anyways, I browsed through papa john's article for the t45. I have seen a good bit of blown up t45's over the years, I may swap one, but would like to lean towards getting a nice used tr3650 or similar. They seem to be able to be had in the 600-1000 range.

What I do want to tackle before I even pull the stock 4r, is do the clutch pedal and the slave cylinder plumbing. I am going to retain floor E-brake, I love cup holders and do not want to part from my 97 console.

I heard chatter guys are running some era of s10 slave cylinder, and I am unsure of what they are doing for plumbing. The other issue is sourcing an SC pedal, I feel as though I could hybrid together a set of pedals from a 94-2004 era mustang, but maybe I aim selling myself to expensive.

flywheel and clutch are gravy to figure out, I would opt in the near stock range 96-04 flywheel and clutch. Driveshaft is the same, I have heard crown vic shafts work, but I would probably just find a police package car grab the shaft and get it sized to the length I need from my driveshaft shop.

So the only real variables are the pedals and slave.
 
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#2 ·
A T45 swap is the cheapest way to get a stick in the car and working. The T45 is a good strong trans, with the only real weak link being the 3-4 shift fork. There are companies that make a billet steel replacement shift fork, but that basically requires rebuilding the transmission to replace it. The other disadvantage of the T45 is the shifter location being too far forward, which requires either fabricating papa john's extension box, or cutting a hole in the floor for and making a remote mount shifter. As for the crown vic driveshaft, a stock civilian crown vic steel driveshaft is the right length for the T45 swap, but the police driveshaft is 1" too short. It will physically work to move the car, but it is not ideal. If you want an aluminum driveshaft, you will have to have one made, or get a MarkVIII shaft shortened. The length you are looking for is 56.5" centerline to centerline. For actuating the clutch, there are a few options. I was the one who figured out the S10 slave, and you need one for a 94/95 4-cyl S10. This will require making a bracket to bolt the slave to the side of the trans to push on the stock mustang clutch fork. Another option is a pull type slave, which is more expensive, but won't require any bracket to be made. Another option is a hydraulic throw out bearing mounted inside the bell housing, but I don't recommend that due to if anything goes wrong, you have to drop the trans to change it.

Next up on the trans list is the 99-04 TR-3650. The advantage of this trans is no more 3-4 shift fork problems, and a synchronized reverse. Installation is exactly the same as the T-45 with the added expense of needing an extended range speedcal to make the speedo read accurately.

Next up would be the 05-10 Mustang TR-3650. The biggest advantages to using this trans is ease of install. The 05+ Mustang shifter will land exactly where it needs to be in our cars, and the stock Mustang hydraulic throw out bearing can be used with the stock SC clutch pedal and master, making it literally a bolt-in swap. The downfall to this swap is cost. In addition to still needing an extended range speedcal, you will also need a custom fabricated driveshaft, as there is no stock application that will come close to working.

Next on the list would be the various 6-speeds. A T-56 has been done a few times, but for the cost and difficulty of swapping it in, really isn't worth it. The TR-6060 out of the 06+ Shelby GT500, as well as the Getrag 6-speed in the 11+ Mustangs both should swap in just as easily as the 05+ TR-3650, only the trans itself would likely cost more.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Gear ratios are also an important factor.

Depending on what rear gears you're running will make which transmission you choose/ratios in the transmission more important.

1-4 are important, but for cruising 5th (or 6th if you have it) is also critical. If you have 3.73's for example, here's a list of RPM's at speed with a stock size tire.
Stock, 4r70w is a .7 OD, 70mph is 2300 rpm, 75mph is about 2500.
The t-45 has a .67 OD, 70 is 2200, 75 is 2400
The TR3650 (02-04) is a .62 OD, 70 is 2000rpm, 75 is 2200
the 05+ 3650 is a .68 OD, so very close to the T45, 70 is 2200, 75 is 2400
The T56 can have either a .62 or a .5, we already know the .62, so the .5 is 1650rpm, while 75 is just under 1800 rpm. Both of which are too low for decent mpg if my 2002 Crown Vic with 2.73 rear gears is any evidence.
The TR6060 has a .62 or a .5 as well (it's just an upgraded T56, same as the T56 Magnum)
The MT-82 from the 11+ Mustangs has a .65 OD, but has the added advantage of being a much closer ratio with only a single overdrive, unlike the T56, T56Mag, and 6060 which have double overdrives. The MT-82 will get you just over 2100RPM at 70, an 2300 at 75mph

Me personally, if I was going for a six speed, I'd try for an MT-82 or a T56 Magnum. Both are expensive, but the MT-82 has five "normal" gears with 5th being direct drive, and sixth being a nice OD for cruising. The T56Magnum, having two models, one with closer ratios and a .62 OD would be my choice, as it has many advantages, including (if you get the actual T56 Magnum, not the 6060) a mechanical speedometer option. The other OD in the .62 gearset is a .80 to 1, so it's better for lower speeds while giving you a good cruise gear.

My experience with the ford 4.6 is that it's sweet spot for cruising is between 2000 and 2300 rpm. When I had a 2002 Crown Vic, it had 2.73 gears and the .7 OD. I was barely turning 1700 RPM at 75mph, and it got HORRIBLE mileage on the highway. I averaged 20mpg on my trip from Houston to Duluth, keeping to the speed limit the whole time. The only time I got better was one spot in Kansas where the posted limit was 80, so I kicked it up to 85 and I got 24mpg. My other 4.6 cars (1997 Thunderbird stock with 3.27, 1999 Mustang GT with 3.27 and T45, and my current 1997 Thunderbird with 3.73's) get their best mileage between 2000 and 2300. My first Thunderbird would get me 27mpg reliably at 75mph (2200rpm), my Mustang getting me around 26-28 at 75 (2150 rpm) and my current car getting me 25mpg at 65mph (just over 2300 rpm, 70 in my car is 2400, and gets me 24mpg, due to my smaller diameter tires).

So, for the fun driving aspect, any manual will help that. My opinion is that the T56Mag and the MT-82 are the best choices, but also the two most expensive.
 
#5 ·
I am not to concerned about picking the transmission based on gears, I will probably try and slam a stick into the car sooner then anything else. So this swap is not as daunting as people make it out to be. I did see the article on the speed cal wiring.

Currently there is a local 07 TR3650 for 600$ I was thinking of going with that. I don't want a 6speed, they cost to much and in my own mind I just don't care to have one. T56s are heavy (I think?) but 6 gears is just a unneeded luxury to me. 5 speeds have the sweet price point right now because people all want 6 speeds. I think I can do the pedals and the slave before I get working on putting the stick into the car. It will be so glamorous driving an auto car with a clutch pedal.
 
#6 ·
I agree, most of the 6 speeds like the T56 are just double overdrive, so you have two pokey economy gears rather than one, and on top of that the ratios aren't that great looking (to me anyway) for a naturally aspirated mod motor over the T45/TR3650. MT82s have better ratios with a 5th direct, but they have beta issues themselves. TR3650s weigh more than the T45 though if you're concerned about weight, and with the 07 trans the driveshaft will be $$$

I drove my car for 8 months with 5 speed pedals and an auto, it's totally baller! :tongue:
 
#7 ·
so the general choice is late model t45. When I was in the mod motors before in the mid 2000s you have no idea how many blown up t45s I came across. I guess I will go ahead and bite the bullet and go with one of these, they seem more plentiful and cheap. eBay shows a few in the sub 1000 range.

96 01 Mustang Cobra T 45 External Hydraulic Slave Kit | eBay

is this kind of what to expect to emulate with the slave setup? That price seems high.
 
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#8 ·
so looking on car-parts.com looks like t45s can be had as cheap as 400$. I think I am sold. The 98 and lower ones are the one that would be the easiest to slide into a bird correct? The trade off being a little less strength vs the 99-00
 
#9 ·
1996-mid 2001 are T45, Mid 01-04 are TR3650, and 05+ are the "long" 3650's. The early transmissions (T45/pre 05 3650) need an extension for the shifter to hit the right spot. Not too hard to fab up, but it's a little work. The later transmissions (anything 05 up) will bolt right up as far as shifter location, but will need the speedcal.
 
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#10 ·
I would go for one with the shifter in the right spot, and deal with the other specifics.

Not saying it would be like this, but I saw an old AMX with a 6 spd swap, and the shifter was the ugliest thing you ever saw. It had a big 90 deg turn towards the front. It needed a console to hide all that ****.

Al
 
#11 ·
Agreed, the 05+ transmissions cost a little more, and need a speedcal, but physically bolt right in. Just take the PRND21 template out, fab up a boot (I believe the C5 Corvette boot works well) and row those gears.

I've been working on the math, and the MT82 doesn't go well with short gears. First gear is very short, 3.66:1 and second is 2.43:1 If I had 3:55's or 3.31:1 rear gears, it'd be a great transmission, but with my 3.73's I'd have to shift all the way to third to get up to 60mph!

The T56Magnum however, while more expensive, has a 2.66:1 first, and 1.78 second, so I'd be at 49mph at 6500RPM with the T56, vs 31mph (and there VERY quickly) with the MT82. It'd be a great corner carving transmission with taller gears, but I don't want to row all the way to 3rd, or change out the rear gears either. Plus with the T56 Magnum having mechanical pickups, I should be able to not have to fuss with a speedcal.
 
#13 ·
The S10 slave setup will work similar to the one you posted, however the slave bolts up differently, so the bracket is a little more difficult to make, but not bad, as long as you can weld, and way cheaper than the $250 one you posted. Once you have the slave and the trans in front of you, it will be pretty clear how you need to make the bracket.
 
#15 ·
I can weld so I think I will be alright. So sounds like the hardest thing on a t45 would be the shifter (that really doesn't seem to bad) and the 'hardest' part being sourcing 3 pedals if I can't get an sc one.
 
#20 ·
You guys are thinking more then you need to. I want to slam a stick in there on the cheap because it's lighter then a 4R, my stock 95 4R has conniptions daily, it will improve driver interaction, and I think I can do it cheaper than a fully built 4R.

I don't care about where my 2nd or 3rd gear gets me to 60mph. As of this second I foresee a stick in the car before the 3.08s get changed, so it doesn't matter one bit what's there right this second. I also, and I really mean this, hate t56s. I'd much rather do a built 4R than a t56

6500 is the upper realm stock 2v bottom ends should go to so I have heard. I've spun a stock 96 bird to 6k more then a few times back in the day.

Hey woodman you still using that sc pedal? I should have stole that b from you. I didn't know then that I now have a 3 pedal desire.
 
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#21 ·
It's sitting on my shelf next to a manual transmission brake pedal.

I'm really motivated to put a stick shift in it next year after I pay off the heads and other stuff I've bought, so I am afraid I can't sell them to you. Sorry brother. But... I will keep my eyes open and if I can get some, get you the pedals.
 
#43 ·
thread revival, I seem to have found a few for around 75$, who has made these work? I may be changing DD's soon, and the birds transmission is definitely on borrowed time, I think the only thing saving it is the transynd it constantly gets because it leaks so bad. So I need to get cracking. I may try and find a t45, theres one for sale locally but homie wants 700$ because it came out of a cobra. I guess he assumes its different then all the other t45s since it was in a cobra. Maybe he will take 500$. Guess we will see.
 
#24 ·
ha, too soon bro, too soon!

Anyways, the t45s from the cobra's and gt's are the same? or differences in internals?
 
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#26 ·
anyone have any clutch pedal pictures? I am kind of looking for custom work, but OEM might be helpful to send me in the right direction.
 
#28 ·
#29 ·
I had no idea there was a used parts place specifically for the MN-12's. Had not heard it mentioned on here before.

Then again, the 94-95 intake for $65 is a little expensive for bulk aluminum by the pound.

Al
 
#30 ·
I found out about it from here. I bookmark EVERYTHING that I find useful or MAY find useful.

THey're even within a couple of hours of me.

Yeah, their prices aren't the best, but considering that they check everything, grade them, pull them, and save you tromping through the junk yard looking for something that MIGHT be there, it's not bad.
 
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#31 ·
That's almost as much as I was planning on spending for the entire transmission. I guess its an option but man that hurts. I wonder how long those will be for sale and if they continually have those in stock.
 
#32 ·
They pull em and sell em as people want em. Could be there for months, could be days. Not quite sure. They currently have two clutch pedal assemblies in stock (which is all you really need, you can cut down the auto brake pedal). They do have three brake pedals.
 
#33 ·
Try Row52 | Find recycled automotive parts from self service auto recycling yards!

If noone has a manual SC up to parting out on here or SCCOA, the cheapest way to get this part besides buying a donor car of your own is to find it at a junkyard. Row52 pulls their data from 82 yards around the country; if they have one, you just need to make time to drive over there and pull the part yourself.

You could also try paying someone to pull the part for you but what you get for sending them your money up front can vary depending on what guy you contract with to pull and ship the part to you.
You may find it easier to use eBay or some website.

EDIT: nevermind that was a brake pedal

IIRC, this is approx what I sold extra clutch pedals from my parted out cars to buyers here on TCCOA for.
Going to a junkyard and pulling the part would be for me a 1/2 day excursion considering I live >1hr from any JYs (assuming the part is still there when I get to the JY).

As far as time value of money is concerned, this seems like a reasonable price to me.

-g
 
#34 ·
Lots of good info in this thread. A recent test drive in a GT350 Mustang got me thinking about swapping to a manual trans in my '97. But, I'm already at ~500 ft-lbs of torque at the crankshaft, and want to go higher with better cylinder heads and a more efficient supercharger in the future. So, I take it that rules out T45s and TR3650s. True? Do I need to go T56 Magnum or Magnum XL? Would a TKO 5-Speed work in an MN12? I'd like to take on something known to work, rather than blaze a new trail.
 
#35 ·
The factory Cobra spec T56 is only about as strong as the T45, and the TR3650 is a bit stronger than both supposedly. All of these transmissions weak link are the 10 spline input shafts, swap in a 26 spline input shaft in any and they're basically bullet proof. TKO I don't know a ton about but they should fit but shifter location may prove troublesome(as it would a Cobra T56, T45 or pre-05 TR3650), I don't know if they can be configured for S197s or F bodies but that option would line them up with the factory hole. Best option IMO would be the TR6060, those are basically an improved T56, used in the GT500, with the remote shifter
 
#37 ·
T-56 Magnum, the "aftermarket" version of the TR-6060, but with both mechanical and electronic pickups for speedo.

Personally, I'm thinking of the MT-82 in the current cars. Better ratios where only 6th is an OD, 5th is 1:1.
 
#38 ·
The MT-82 has issues if strength is a concern, there's quite a lot of angst revolving around them on Mustang forums.

Any stock 99+ Mustang transmission is going to have a magnetic reluctor setup, leaving you with 96-98 T45s, which aren't too great. I'd just get a SpeedCal, you can dial it in to be even more accurate than the mechanical setups to boot.
 
#39 ·
Yeah, and Mustang guys tend to beat the **** out of the cars/transmissions too.

From what I've read, an aftermarket shifter helps a lot of the MT-82 issues, and the reality is that I'll be shifting much more casually than the Mustang guys. I don't dragstrip, I'm not going to be making a ton of power, looking at around 350crank as of right now if my calculations are correct, so I'm not very worried about it for the time being. That's if I go with it. Could keep the auto and get a Gear Vendors unit too, as that would get me the double over I want for highway cruising, drop me down to 2000 at 75 or so.
 
#41 ·
The MT-82 had issues with the fluid at the beginning but it seems to have been sorted out. The body mounted shifter also seems to have been part of the issue, but a there are aftermarket solutions that take care of that.
 
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#47 ·
wise man once say, beggars not be choosers.

I'm just rich enough to afford nice enough things that make me poor.
 
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