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post #61 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-12-2013, 05:37 PM
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Face the fact that I am in the minorty? I live in the 21st century and still enjoy the hell out of cars, no **** I'm in the minority lol. They're my primary occupation, my hobby, my catalyst for research and learning, and subject of dreams, fantasy and adventure. I think you're making the false assumption that I revile CAFE because I can't get a V8, I'm not that short sighted

I revile CAFE because it's yet another regulation that uses specious reasoning to showcase it's effectiveness. It's greatest effect was rewarding the automakers who already made small economical cars and punished those who didn't. In 1975, that was very lopsided. Now a days there's several different manufacturers, several different segments and more economical AND powerful cars than ever, all developed under a long stale CAFE target. The new target only serves to basically eliminate the CHOICE of a V6 and V8 option for the consumer, and that is what I am against.

Second of all, I don't have/nor want kids, so the stow the "for my children's sake" pitch. I just hear the silver bullet political ploy that it is. Yes, the future is full of challenges, foreseen and unforeseen, but guess what? It always has been. Future generations will find a way. I know that goes against the grain of modern society's coddling nature, but it's been the way humans have persevered forever and it takes quite the ego to assume that "only we can solve it for them". Personally, I think the worst thing we can do for future generations is sabotage the present and pile on loads and loads of debt for our kids to attempt to pay off for the futile efforts we come up with to keep the sky from falling on them. And there's far bigger fish to fry than the automobile.


As for electric companies, I'm sure there's no shenanigans going on with them and their elected overseers....

-Matt
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post #62 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-12-2013, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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Face the fact that I am in the minorty? I live in the 21st century and still enjoy the hell out of cars, no **** I'm in the minority lol. They're my primary occupation, my hobby, my catalyst for research and learning, and subject of dreams, fantasy and adventure. I think you're making the false assumption that I revile CAFE because I can't get a V8, I'm not that short sighted

I revile CAFE because it's yet another regulation that uses specious reasoning to showcase it's effectiveness. It's greatest effect was rewarding the automakers who already made small economical cars and punished those who didn't. In 1975, that was very lopsided. Now a days there's several different manufacturers, several different segments and more economical AND powerful cars than ever, all developed under a long stale CAFE target. The new target only serves to basically eliminate the CHOICE of a V6 and V8 option for the consumer, and that is what I am against.

Second of all, I don't have/nor want kids, so the stow the "for my children's sake" pitch. I just hear the silver bullet political ploy that it is. Yes, the future is full of challenges, foreseen and unforeseen, but guess what? It always has been. Future generations will find a way. I know that goes against the grain of modern society's coddling nature, but it's been the way humans have persevered forever and it takes quite the ego to assume that "only we can solve it for them". Personally, I think the worst thing we can do for future generations is sabotage the present and pile on loads and loads of debt for our kids to attempt to pay off for the futile efforts we come up with to keep the sky from falling on them. And there's far bigger fish to fry than the automobile.


As for electric companies, I'm sure there's no shenanigans going on with them and their elected overseers....
It's all for the children - our future! What kind of world are we leaving them ?!?!?


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post #63 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-12-2013, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
Face the fact that I am in the minorty? I live in the 21st century and still enjoy the hell out of cars, no **** I'm in the minority lol. They're my primary occupation, my hobby, my catalyst for research and learning, and subject of dreams, fantasy and adventure. I think you're making the false assumption that I revile CAFE because I can't get a V8, I'm not that short sighted

I revile CAFE because it's yet another regulation that uses specious reasoning to showcase it's effectiveness. It's greatest effect was rewarding the automakers who already made small economical cars and punished those who didn't. In 1975, that was very lopsided. Now a days there's several different manufacturers, several different segments and more economical AND powerful cars than ever, all developed under a long stale CAFE target. The new target only serves to basically eliminate the CHOICE of a V6 and V8 option for the consumer, and that is what I am against.

Second of all, I don't have/nor want kids, so the stow the "for my children's sake" pitch. I just hear the silver bullet political ploy that it is. Yes, the future is full of challenges, foreseen and unforeseen, but guess what? It always has been. Future generations will find a way. I know that goes against the grain of modern society's coddling nature, but it's been the way humans have persevered forever and it takes quite the ego to assume that "only we can solve it for them". Personally, I think the worst thing we can do for future generations is sabotage the present and pile on loads and loads of debt for our kids to attempt to pay off for the futile efforts we come up with to keep the sky from falling on them. And there's far bigger fish to fry than the automobile.


As for electric companies, I'm sure there's no shenanigans going on with them and their elected overseers....
Just because YOU don't want any kids doesn't mean that many more of us here won't have any kids. So, the "for our children's sake" is, and will always be, a viable argument.

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post #64 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-12-2013, 10:28 PM
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So what is the end game to protecting YOUR children then? What's the next horrible evil thing that's too dangerous for them that I'm doing now? Yeah, it will always be the viable argument because nobody dares counter it, pretty much the futurist equivalent of playing the race card. Although, ironically enough, "think of the children" was often used to fight against school desegregation

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post #65 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-13-2013, 09:07 AM
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The end game is solutions are going to be generational. It's not going to be a quick fix solution that will create a better future for us in our lifetime, but perhaps in the lifetime of our kids and even our grandkids.

You brought up the race card example. This is a perfect example of what I mean. Racism is still around to this day, and while it isn't as prominent as it once was, it for sure is still around. One of many reasons why it's not as prominent today as it once was is simply because of a culture change that has taken several generations to implement, some of which had to be done through legislation.

With emissions and environmental protections in place and in fact growing environmental protection laws in place, things like CAFE make it so that vehicles can be sold here in the U.S. that meet those environmental protection standards. Granted, not all of it has been done as a result of CAFE itself, but they have been able to manage to do some of these changes themselves as has previously been mentioned. Now, these CAFE rules and whatnot are not seen by all consumers as something they want, so they'll go out and get whatever they can from somewhere else. Typically something older where the modern CAFE rules didn't apply back then and things can be gotten away from.

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post #66 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-13-2013, 10:23 AM
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The end game is solutions are going to be generational. It's not going to be a quick fix solution that will create a better future for us in our lifetime, but perhaps in the lifetime of our kids and even our grandkids.

You brought up the race card example. This is a perfect example of what I mean. Racism is still around to this day, and while it isn't as prominent as it once was, it for sure is still around. One of many reasons why it's not as prominent today as it once was is simply because of a culture change that has taken several generations to implement, some of which had to be done through legislation.

With emissions and environmental protections in place and in fact growing environmental protection laws in place, things like CAFE make it so that vehicles can be sold here in the U.S. that meet those environmental protection standards. Granted, not all of it has been done as a result of CAFE itself, but they have been able to manage to do some of these changes themselves as has previously been mentioned. Now, these CAFE rules and whatnot are not seen by all consumers as something they want, so they'll go out and get whatever they can from somewhere else. Typically something older where the modern CAFE rules didn't apply back then and things can be gotten away from.
Cultural change is never accomplished through legislation, it is always the other way around. When people want small fuel efficient cars, the manufacturers will produce them. When people don't want them, forcing the manufacturers to produce them is going to mean decreased sales, which means to offset the costs of development and make a profit, each car will have to be priced higher. If the price goes high enough, the demand goes down even more, and at a certain point, it won't be profitable to manufacture cars anymore. Cars are a commodity just like anything else, and their price must be determined by supply and demand. If you alter the supply without accounting for the demand, you create scarcity, which means simultaneously increased costs for the consumer and decreased profits for the supplier. It also means that people will meet their demand elsewhere, so a mandate that manufacturers make cars people don't want will only result in people keeping their old cars, which are going to consume just as much fuel as they do now, if not more. This is what CAFE does, and it is bad for everyone involved. This is basic economics, so that means that all these supposedly intelligent people in government either don't understand basic economics, or don't care about the harm they are doing to the american people now. If your goal is to reduce oil consumption, you have only 2 ways of doing it; alter the demand, or artificially increase the price. Purposely raising the price of gas would be political suicide, so that won't happen, so all that leaves is explaining to people why they should conserve oil, and just like any major cultural shift, it will not be an easy road and there will be push-back from people like myself and XR7-4.6, but simply passing a law only creates new problems without solving the existing ones. My opinion on the whole thing is leave it alone, and the price of oil will slowly go up to reflect how difficult it is to obtain, and as the price goes up, the demand will go down, and it will constantly remain in an equilibrium where people who want/need the fuel will be able to obtain it, and as the price goes up, people who can do without will spend their money elsewhere.

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post #67 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-14-2013, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
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Well, since I fueled the fire by making a silly, funny comment - I'll say my real two cents.

I find it sad that the general public is so stupid that the government even HAS to make decisions for us. And it's not necessarily stupidity, either. Obviously, a lot don't even care that the oil is gonna run out at some point since it's not gonna be in our lifetimes. People lie, give and receive misinformation, and ignore the real facts be it by business, political, or personal reasons.

Fact is, it is what it is, CAFE rules are necessary, and the only argument is how fast the changes come along so y'all might as well get used to it.

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post #68 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-14-2013, 12:31 PM
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Well, since I fueled the fire by making a silly, funny comment - I'll say my real two cents.

I find it sad that the general public is so stupid that the government even HAS to make decisions for us. And it's not necessarily stupidity, either. Obviously, a lot don't even care that the oil is gonna run out at some point since it's not gonna be in our lifetimes. People lie, give and receive misinformation, and ignore the real facts be it by business, political, or personal reasons.

Fact is, it is what it is, CAFE rules are necessary, and the only argument is how fast the changes come along so y'all might as well get used to it.
Speaking of misinformation, has anyone here taken a Statistics class in college? Anyone with college education knows that statistics can be made to portray things in any fashion you wish, there are so many variables that make statistics invalid, but if they benefit your cause you will use them regardless to make others follow.

Rick has it right, lying is just part of the political agenda to generate more money and funding to remove our fun and freedoms in order to fuel their(lawmakers and lobbyists) hobbies. Funny how those who are involved in legislation and politics are always 'excluded' from laws or end up in some loophole where they don't have to abide by the laws they create. Genius.

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post #69 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 04:31 AM
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Speaking of misinformation, has anyone here taken a Statistics class in college? Anyone with college education knows that statistics can be made to portray things in any fashion you wish, there are so many variables that make statistics invalid, but if they benefit your cause you will use them regardless to make others follow.

Rick has it right, lying is just part of the political agenda to generate more money and funding to remove our fun and freedoms in order to fuel their(lawmakers and lobbyists) hobbies. Funny how those who are involved in legislation and politics are always 'excluded' from laws or end up in some loophole where they don't have to abide by the laws they create. Genius.


Published, objective, statistics based on scientific methods are used as tools to reach convergence conclusions.

Yes, one may be wary of "bumper sticker" statistics. However, statistical significance levels may show validity when those variables of probability, data, default position, and confidence, for example, are used in a comprehensive paper.

So no, one would not want to reach a conclusion based solely on a statistics. The stats' may show bias traits, corrupt motivations, errors etc...

Without understanding cause and effect, I often question statistics before reaching a personal conclusion on whether, or not, I think a statistic(s) are true, or false. And, I am not unique. Informally, these personal conclusions are based in part on observation, experience, assumption, conjecture, known facts, and wholistic knowledge. I will also not discount intuition.

Statistically, Since the first CAFE regulations were passed in 1975 new vehicles today, sold in the U.S., have become more efficient, and less polluting. Conclusion: Because of new CAFE regulations, new vehicles sold in 2025 will be even more efficient, and less polluting than vehicles of today.

Conclusion true, or false?

False: Based on small significant level.

Default position.
Consumer demand will dictate Prius or 7,000 lb. suv's. Which in turn is based on economics, i.e. the cost of a barrel of crude, GNP, GDP, etc, etc, etc...

Federal regulations, subsidies grants, loans, fines..."The greater good"?
Nah, not so much...


Race
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post #70 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 06:44 AM
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Published, objective, statistics based on scientific methods are used as tools to reach convergence conclusions.

Yes, one may be wary of "bumper sticker" statistics. However, statistical significance levels may show validity when those variables of probability, data, default position, and confidence, for example, are used in a comprehensive paper.

So no, one would not want to reach a conclusion based solely on a statistics. The stats' may show bias traits, corrupt motivations, errors etc...

Without understanding cause and effect, I often question statistics before reaching a personal conclusion on whether, or not, I think a statistic(s) are true, or false. And, I am not unique. Informally, these personal conclusions are based in part on observation, experience, assumption, conjecture, known facts, and wholistic knowledge. I will also not discount intuition.

Statistically, Since the first CAFE regulations were passed in 1975 new vehicles today, sold in the U.S., have become more efficient, and less polluting. Conclusion: Because of new CAFE regulations, new vehicles sold in 2025 will be even more efficient, and less polluting than vehicles of today.

Conclusion true, or false?

False: Based on small significant level.

Default position.
Consumer demand will dictate Prius or 7,000 lb. suv's. Which in turn is based on economics, i.e. the cost of a barrel of crude, GNP, GDP, etc, etc, etc...

Federal regulations, subsidies grants, loans, fines..."The greater good"?
Nah, not so much...


Race
Well said!

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-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
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post #71 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-15-2013, 11:41 PM
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Well said!

Thank you.
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post #72 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 08:49 AM
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Speaking of misinformation, has anyone here taken a Statistics class in college? Anyone with college education knows that statistics can be made to portray things in any fashion you wish, there are so many variables that make statistics invalid, but if they benefit your cause you will use them regardless to make others follow.
not only that, 99.99999% of all statistics are made-up on-the-spot.
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post #73 of 73 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 12:57 PM
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not only that, 99.99999% of all statistics are made-up on-the-spot.
No way! We must spread this statistic all across the interwebz to drive our anti-statistic agenda!

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