Federal government passes new CAFE laws - 54.4 MPG avg by 2025 - TCCoA Forums

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post #1 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Federal government passes new CAFE laws - 54.4 MPG avg by 2025

Over the past few years, we’ve seen Ford, GM and Chrysler make changes to the fuel economies in their vehicles, with some of the most drastic changes seen in today’s pickups.

From the EcoBoost to the AFM technologies, automakers are making great strides to produce a quality vehicle that not only pleases consumers, but meets regulations set by the federal government.

As the government begins enacting environmentally-friendly guidelines for automakers, companies are being forced to take additional approaches to control emissions and gas mileages.

Over the past couple of days, the Obama Administration finalized new gas mileage standards to take effect, starting in 2025. All cars and trucks will have to produce a fleet-wide average of 54.4 miles per gallon.

According to Detroit News, the rules give automakers credits for building hybrid light trucks and adding fuel-saving features that the government didn’t take into account in prior years.....


See whole article here: http://blog.powerblocktv.com/?p=4927

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post #2 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 02:26 PM
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I'm confused, was he not around in the 70s? Did he not see what a complete failure the CAFE laws were then? What makes them think that it will be any different now?

The only thing I am curious about is since Pontiac is gone, what manufacturer do you think is going to pull the old sunbird trick? I'm actually betting on Dodge this time.

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post #3 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 02:31 PM
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post #4 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 02:31 PM
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Sunbird trick?

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post #5 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 02:36 PM
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It's similar to being Cimarroned

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post #6 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 02:45 PM
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I'm actually 100% OK with the increase in fuel economy. Just look at what has been actually productized in the last few years: direct injection, turbo charging, and >4+ gear automatics.

The Hyundai 2L Turbo makes 274HP and gets 34MPG... on regular pump gas.
Hell, even the Mustang V6 now makes 300HP and 31MPG hwy.

In the 70s, many of the techniques for fuel economy (like cylinder deactivation) weren't possible because electronics technology for engine mgmt wasn't there yet. This resulted in dreadful, underpowered cars.

We have made leaps and bounds in both electronics development and manufacturing tolerances. There's no reason why we can't have cleaner, more efficient cars. Considering how much CNG we have in the US, I'm surprised we don't have more CNG cars for example. Or diesel hybrids.

For those of you who complain that these technologies are only pushing up car prices,
a) there's noone forcing you to buy a new car and as newer cars get substantially better gas mileage (vs used cars), depreciation on used cars will increase to make them more affordable for you

b) There will ALWAYS be a market for cheap new cars. a Nissan Versa can be had for $11.75K MSRP new -- and that will get 38MPG hwy.

Bottom Line: as private enterprises, car companies want to maximize their profit even if it means the environment suffers. IMO, it's worth it to force them to adopt more modern technology vs just having them return their revenues to their shareholders.

-g

PS. As far as small cars being rebadged to up the CAFE of mfgs, it's still happening. Just google Aston Martin Cygnet. With the recent takeover of Porsche by VW (they used to be "cousins" with related ownership but and now one fully owns the other), I suspect we will see another VW-based Porsche 914 like car in the future.

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post #7 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 02:47 PM
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Pontiac came out with the Sunbird in the late 70s for one reason; to still be able to put a big block in the Trans-Am. It was a cheap POS car that did nothing well except get good gas mileage, and then Pontiac priced the car so low that they actually lost money on every single Pontiac Sunbird sold. By pricing it so low, they sold tons of the things, and the higher gas mileage rating of the Sunbird was able to offset the lower gas mileage rating of the Trans-Am, so they were still above the CAFE regulation. Since, in the late 70s, there was no other option for a muscle car with a big block, Pontiac was able to raise the price on the Trans-Am, and people who wanted the power would pay it, and they more than made up the money they lost on the Sunbirds with the money they made on the Trans-Ams.

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post #8 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 03:02 PM
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What actually happens though is all the companies end up building a line or two of unappealing, slow, tiny ****boxes for each division to offset the rest of the car/truck lines that still pull in customers. Like, for example:



And don't think for a moment that formula won't happen today either...



Hell even the progressive environmentaly conscious Japanese automakers that are soooooo loved on the coast have moved towards bigger heavier, faster, cars, SUVs and CUVs over the last 20 years. It's no surprise they've been introducing microcars and subcompacts into their portfolio recently. Think that's pent up demand? Or preparation for the next wave of CAFE?


I agree that progress is good. The reason progress was so stifled by the 1970s though was that a certain American automaker had over 50% marketshare and the other two tended to use it as their yardstick for car development. That paradigm has changed as drastically as the technology has however. To say that this lofty mandate will do more good than bad today is pretty daft since every automaker from America, to Germany, to japan and even to Korea will be effected by this. Historically speaking, CAFE does little but to bankrupt the companies that built cars people actually want and reward the rest for what the politicians want.

And there's far worse things for the environment than the evil automobile.

-Matt

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post #9 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 03:33 PM
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That ad makes me want a caddy cavalier...I didn't know the details on the origin of the sunbird, interesting. Now why no cimmeron wagon or convertible

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post #10 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 03:35 PM
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And there's far worse things for the environment than the evil automobile.
Like excess idiots on the planet?

LIke India cough cough cough cant breathe through smog sorry. Or even China LOL again waaay tooo many people to deserve a gas guzzler in that nation. Worst places on earth easy.

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post #11 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 03:44 PM
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That ad makes me want a caddy cavalier...I didn't know the details on the origin of the sunbird, interesting. Now why no cimmeron wagon or convertible

It was more than just the Sunbird. Buick and Olds had the Skyhawk and Starfire. Both half hearted Monza(Vega) badge jobs. That wave of brand erosion started when they split the Nova into the N.O.V.A.s (Nova, Omega, Ventura, Apallo)

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Like excess idiots on the planet?

LIke India cough cough cough cant breathe through smog sorry. Or even China LOL again waaay tooo many people to deserve a gas guzzler in that nation. Worst places on earth easy.
I still think GM should be trying to hock their lackluster Volts as Chinese Buicks or just have every automaker beta test electric cars in those countries in general. If they're soooo viable and soooooooo inevitable as the future of transportation, wouldn't the greatest testbeds be there? Might even clean their air

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post #12 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 04:42 PM
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Well I guess Obama wants everyone to drive a Prius by 2025

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post #13 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 04:53 PM
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Well I guess Obama wants everyone to drive a Prius by 2025
Let's not make this Political. Keep to the topic of CAFE. I could make a good counter-point to that statement but I'm going to leave that sleeping dog lie.

Personally, I wish they'd invest more in mass transit and electric maglev bullet trains to move people.

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post #14 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 05:06 PM
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Agreed. And fix and just as importantly improve and expand the freaking highway infrastructure.

I changed the title btw.

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post #15 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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Agreed. And fix and just as importantly improve and expand the freaking highway infrastructure.

I changed the title btw.
I thought something was up! Hey, my ADD makes me easy to confuse!!!!




As for expanding the highway infrastructure, it's already too big. Look how many roads are basically crap when you head up north and you'll see what I mean.

I just think there are too many roads now - would save this country a lot of money to just eliminate maintaining some of these roads that are flat out NEVER used...

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post #16 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 05:39 PM
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Its real simple to get high MPG lighter cars. My parents Renault Alliance (European not US version) got mid to upper 30s. My dad's 90 F150 get 22mpg I-6 300; my SC gets 18mpg City ~300 bHp; wife's 5.0 MN-12 gets 28+ highway.

People have demanded more and more JUNK in their cars weight has skyrocketed, and while yes Peak HP has gone up I doubt power below ~2500RPM has.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #17 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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Its real simple to get high MPG lighter cars. My parents Renault Alliance (European not US version) got mid to upper 30s. My dad's 90 F150 get 22mpg I-6 300; my SC gets 18mpg City ~300 bHp; wife's 5.0 MN-12 gets 28+ highway.

People have demanded more and more JUNK in their cars weight has skyrocketed, and while yes Peak HP has gone up I doubt power below ~2500RPM has.
+1 That IS the easiest way to get better mileage. MN-12 with all aluminum drive train (engine block, drive shaft, differential & LCA's) from a Mark VIII, aftermarket exhaust system and a fiberglass hood is much lighter than any factory MN-12.

And who needs a spare these days! AAA will take care of ya! lol

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post #18 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 06:22 PM
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+1 That IS the easiest way to get better mileage. MN-12 with all aluminum drive train (engine block, drive shaft, differential & LCA's) from a Mark VIII, aftermarket exhaust system and a fiberglass hood is much lighter than any factory MN-12.

And who needs a spare these days! AAA will take care of ya! lol
I'm almost there. The only thing I'm missing from your list is the aluminum diff.

I'm doing my part to make my car "Greener"

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Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #19 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-28-2012, 07:15 PM
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I thought something was up! Hey, my ADD makes me easy to confuse!!!!




As for expanding the highway infrastructure, it's already too big. Look how many roads are basically crap when you head up north and you'll see what I mean.

I just think there are too many roads now - would save this country a lot of money to just eliminate maintaining some of these roads that are flat out NEVER used...
I agree but improving exits and entrances and adding lanes to existing roadways that ARE frequently used could help with some traffic congestion. Idling and crawling isn't good for MPG

I am up north. 53 needs to plow through Long Grove, the Elgin Ohare needs to go to at least ONE of those locations and an extra lane or two as well as some eliminated and extended exit/entrances on a few of the city arteries wouldn't be a bad idea IMO As it is it's all inadequate and wasteful.

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+1 That IS the easiest way to get better mileage. MN-12 with all aluminum drive train (engine block, drive shaft, differential & LCA's) from a Mark VIII, aftermarket exhaust system and a fiberglass hood is much lighter than any factory MN-12.

And who needs a spare these days! AAA will take care of ya! lol
And a can of fix a flat and a portable pump takes care of it in a jiffy as well. Tons of new cars come with that in lieu of a spare these days.

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Originally Posted by bowez View Post
Its real simple to get high MPG lighter cars. My parents Renault Alliance (European not US version) got mid to upper 30s. My dad's 90 F150 get 22mpg I-6 300; my SC gets 18mpg City ~300 bHp; wife's 5.0 MN-12 gets 28+ highway.

People have demanded more and more JUNK in their cars weight has skyrocketed, and while yes Peak HP has gone up I doubt power below ~2500RPM has.
Very true but you're forgetting one thing. "Safety". Apperently there's no such thing as too many airbags and ever more strict pedestrian safety standards require taller bodies(thus more steel)

-Matt

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post #20 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 05:56 PM
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Did the Fed just kill the muscle car?

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Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne told the Detroit Free Press that V8-powered cars like his company’s Dodge Challenger will become as “rare as white flies” under new fuel efficiency standards announced by the Obama administration yesterday.

The new regulations, which will require a fleet wide fuel economy average of 54.5 mpg by the year 2025 will “change the way the industry operates” and means that automakers must deploy significantly new technologies and must change the way cars are designed, according to Marchionne. "We are struggling with some big choices we need to make," he said.

Chrysler officially supports the new targets, and Marchionne believes they can be met, but the company currently lacks any high mileage hybrid or battery-powered cars in its lineup while offering four popular vehicles from its SRT high-performance division that are powered by a supercharged Hemi V8 engine and get 17 mpg combined or less.

Next year, the Fiat brand will begin selling a low-volume electric version of its 500 microcar, but Chrysler’s further efforts in the alternative fuel arena are unclear. Less so is the introduction later this year of the 640 hp V10-powered SRT Viper supercar, which sounds like it could end up being the only thing rarer than a white fly.

Get ‘em while they last.

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post #21 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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What? Chrysler that is pretty much owned by the government supports the new targets?

Shocker.....

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post #22 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 07:39 PM
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Fiat bought them for the dealer network to hock their junk in the states, they couldn't care less about Chrysler as an automaker. Not much different than the Renault/AMC partnership and we know what happened there.

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post #23 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 07:50 PM
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What? Chrysler that is pretty much owned by the government supports the new targets?

Shocker.....
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Fiat bought them for the dealer network to hock their junk in the states, they couldn't care less about Chrysler as an automaker. Not much different than the Renault/AMC partnership and we know what happened there.
Yup, as of July 2011 the Gov. no longer owns controlling interest in Chrysler. That distinction now belongs to Fiat (53.5% controlling interest to be exact.)

Interestingly, Chrysler returned to foreign ownership just four short years after breaking up with Dailmer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/22/bu...-chrysler.html

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Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto.
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post #24 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 09:08 PM
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Welcome to 1972 everybody!

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post #25 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 09:43 PM
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Gas was uber cheap in 72, this is more like 79 or 80

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post #26 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-29-2012, 10:51 PM
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True. 255 CID small blocks, anyone?

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post #27 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-30-2012, 12:03 AM
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255 isn't that much smaller than 281.

First of the Windsor blocks was the Ford 221 (!!!) in the Falcon and Comet, back in 1962.

The chevy 283 and ford 289 were right royal motors in their day. They both lived on (the Chevy still!) in descendents.

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post #28 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-30-2012, 12:18 AM
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Yeah but the 255 was a smog choked decontented 302 for all intents and purposes. That was devolution at it's worst.

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post #29 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-30-2012, 01:42 AM
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PS. As far as small cars being rebadged to up the CAFE of mfgs, it's still happening. Just google Aston Martin Cygnet. With the recent takeover of Porsche by VW (they used to be "cousins" with related ownership but and now one fully owns the other), I suspect we will see another VW-based Porsche 914 like car in the future.
That is already here. Have you not noticed the similarities between the Porsche Panamera and the VW Beetle? The Beetle is basically a 2dr version of the Panamera!

Panamera:





Beetle:





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I agree but improving exits and entrances and adding lanes to existing roadways that ARE frequently used could help with some traffic congestion. Idling and crawling isn't good for MPG
A big project that is addressing that here in SoCal is the 405 project. Anybody here who drives through that knows that this is one hell of a project going on right now.

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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
And a can of fix a flat and a portable pump takes care of it in a jiffy as well. Tons of new cars come with that in lieu of a spare these days.
Exactly. The RX-8 I owned a few years ago did not have a spare as a standard option. Instead it had a tire repair kit. If you wanted the spare, you had to pay something silly like $500 or something to have it.

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Originally Posted by ThunderChecken View Post
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Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne told the Detroit Free Press that V8-powered cars like his company’s Dodge Challenger will become as “rare as white flies” under new fuel efficiency standards announced by the Obama administration yesterday.

The new regulations, which will require a fleet wide fuel economy average of 54.5 mpg by the year 2025 will “change the way the industry operates” and means that automakers must deploy significantly new technologies and must change the way cars are designed, according to Marchionne. "We are struggling with some big choices we need to make," he said.

Chrysler officially supports the new targets, and Marchionne believes they can be met, but the company currently lacks any high mileage hybrid or battery-powered cars in its lineup while offering four popular vehicles from its SRT high-performance division that are powered by a supercharged Hemi V8 engine and get 17 mpg combined or less.

Next year, the Fiat brand will begin selling a low-volume electric version of its 500 microcar, but Chrysler’s further efforts in the alternative fuel arena are unclear. Less so is the introduction later this year of the 640 hp V10-powered SRT Viper supercar, which sounds like it could end up being the only thing rarer than a white fly.

Get ‘em while they last.
You know, I don't care if a v8 engine is thing of the past come 2025. As long as there is a car out there using whatever technology is available then that can produce an equivalent amount of power to that of 300HP+, then that'll work for me. That would be the "v8" of the future.
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post #30 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-30-2012, 02:05 AM
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A Porsche looking like a Beetle? What a revelation! lol

V8s aren't going anywhere. They're still a good all around design for street performance which has kept them alive up to this point. Last time CAFE got strict they were predicted to die off with 4 and 6 cylinder turbos taking their place. Cost, reliability, comparable performance and even MPG kept them alive. Now with variable cam timing, direct injection, ect. on the horizon they're sure to dynamically improve again. Plus with the majority of the companies lineups making multiple efficient cars including hybrid models, the average will easily balance mid 20 to 30 mpg V8 models they have. Chrysler are the ones who are in the real bind. Their V8s are big, The cars are bigger and those are really their only vehicles that seem to move any volume. Their small cars don't sell, they don't have many of them in their lineups(what do they have the Dart(Stratus?) as their lone econobox in a lineup of Chargers, Challengers and trucks?) and being cash strapped screws any development for them.

All I know is I'll never go electric.

-Matt
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