Hydroboost Master Cylinder Swap?????

[ben2go]

The engine build I have planned will require me to run either a vacuum pump with accumulator or a hydroboost brake booster.I would rather have the hydraulic boost since most of my driving will be in the mountains.I was told that some late 70's to mid 80's Mercs and Lincs have this system and it should bolt in place of my Cougar's current vacuum booster and master cylinder.Being a mechanic by trade,I have never seen this set up on Ford built cars.Has anyone seen these brake systems?I do know the crappy GM diesel conversions of the 70's and 80's had hydroboost brake systems.

So,my questions are,,,,,

1)Anyone have any knowledge of Ford,Mercury,or Lincoln using hydraulic boosted (AKA hydroboost) brakes in the 70's and 80's?

2)Is anyone running a hydroboost system on their vehicle,if so,could you post specifics?


Here is where my info came from. Classic Broncos

[BigJohnny]

I dont know much abo9ut it or if this helps, but my dads 1992 GMC with the 7.4L has the brake booster powered from the PS pump. I'm not sure how the pump is setup or if you could just add one onto another car without modifying or adding the proper PS pump.

there, that's the extent of my knowledge, I've told you everything I know about it

[Rob]

SN95 Mustang has hydroboost and I would presume that it would have the same firewall pattern and rod hole size (for the brake pedal) since the v6 sn95 has vacuum assist power brakes. Thats the only Ford I can think of that I have seen it on that wasnt a diesel and it's actually in a car. Perhaps someone else will chime in with other possible options!
-Rob

EDIT: Just an extra thought. Since the Mustang is 4.6, it either has the same pump as the tbird without hydroboost or it has a pump suited for hydroboost that will bolt up in our stock location. The only thing that might need modified would be lines! Let us know what else you find out!

[tbirdguy]

Originally Posted by ben2go

The engine build I have planned will require me to run either a vacuum pump with accumulator or a hydroboost brake booster.I would rather have the hydraulic boost since most of my driving will be in the mountains.I was told that some late 70's to mid 80's Mercs and Lincs have this system and it should bolt in place of my Cougar's current vacuum booster and master cylinder.Being a mechanic by trade,I have never seen this set up on Ford built cars.Has anyone seen these brake systems?I do know the crappy GM diesel conversions of the 70's and 80's had hydroboost brake systems.

So,my questions are,,,,,

1)Anyone have any knowledge of Ford,Mercury,or Lincoln using hydraulic boosted (AKA hydroboost) brakes in the 70's and 80's?

2)Is anyone running a hydroboost system on their vehicle,if so,could you post specifics?



Here is where my info came from. Classic Broncos

I *think* the 82 V8 continental had it, that is a fox body car. I remember I wanted to buy an old one and my mechanic friend said it wasn't working.

[Nitemare]

89 to 92 SC ABS systems were non vacuum, but I believe the booster and master cylinder is a single unit, and would require the computer and all that crap. Also I think hard to find.

Only the 4.6 SN95's are hydroboost. 94-95 are 5.0 and still have vacuum boosters.

I'd check this out: http://www.hydratechbraking.com/

[byrd_of_thunder]

deja vu
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...ighlight=boost

[ben2go]

Originally Posted by byrd_of_thunder

deja vu
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...ighlight=boost

Thanks.I read that thread before posting this one.It doesn't anwser my questions.

I know the hydroboost system will work and I know how the systems operate.I am just looking for the easiest install and most compact unit.I'm lazy so I like the easiest way. I have found out that the late 70's early 80's Merc Marquis hydroboost unit is roughly close to the same length as the stock non abs vacuum assist unit.The Merc unit is also smaller around.After reading up on the Bronco sites,I have learned that the Merc unit has a square mounting flange that angles the booster up in the Merc.The bracket can be repositioned to re-angle the hydroboost unit as needed.It seems to be the best to mount the hydro boost unit upside down to keep the accumulator from hitting the engine.The master cylinder will bolt onto the unit correctly after it's flipped.I am still researching the NM units,but can't find any info on the web.I am looking into Mustang units also.

Good thing about my car is no ABS,but it has crappy rear drums.So I will be going to 93+ Mark VIII brakes front and rear.(Note to self;remember to get the proportioning valve. )

I will report back with my findings as they materialize.

[byrd_of_thunder]

i checked out that hydratech website. they've got some pretty cool stuff just nothing designed specifically for our cars.

[master486]

Originally Posted by Nitemare

89 to 92 SC ABS systems were hydroboost

No they aren't. "Hyrdoboost" systems are powered by hydraulic pressure from the steering system. The early ABS systems on the MN12 were standalone units.

[ben2go]

Originally Posted by master486

No they aren't. "Hyrdoboost" systems are powered by hydraulic pressure from the steering system. The early ABS systems on the MN12 were standalone units.

Partially correct.Some were electricly operated hydroboost units instead of PS pump driven units.SC models mainly got this style booster.I will be posting some interesting research findings pretty soon.

[ben2go]

So far I have found hydroboost on these Ford built vehicles.

It appears that some MNs came with hydroboost.I think these are the 4.6L and some SC cars.These are electrically operated units and are fairly rare because of high failure rates.

1961-63 Ford Thunderbird-AKA Bullet Bird
1976 Mercury Grande Marquis Station Wagon
1974-79 Lincoln Continental
1975-78 Ford Thunderbird with 4 wheel disc brakes (EXTREMELY RARE FIND)
1977-80 Lincoln Versailles
1982-89 Lincoln Continental-From research this unit appears to bolt right in place of the vacuum booster on fox body cars.
1984-89 Mark VII, VI-From research this unit appears to bolt right in place of the vacuum booster on fox body cars.
1996-04 Cobra Mustang
99+ Super Duty Fords-Probably limited to diesel models.
Ford F350 Unknown Year(s)

It appears that the power Steering Pump with 2 return lines from a 1977 Lincoln Mark V (Napa # NSP208606) is the choice of champions.Another popular option is power steering pumps from 1970's Ford 1 ton cab and chassis with hydroboost.If using a non-hydroboost PS pump,make sure it is putting out 1200 to 1500 psi and 3.0 gps minimum.Don't worry tho.Their are performance rebuild kits for most popular PS pumps that will boost psi and flow.

After reading some reviews of Fords attempts to use hydroboost brake systems,it turns out to be a failure on passenger cars.This explains why there are only a limited number of their vehicles running these systems.

If you don't mind Chevy parts,some of the Chevy Astro/GMC Safari Vans had small hydroboost units.I mention these because they are small,two stud mount,and probably more plentiful in scrap yards.

2004/5 Chevy Tahoe
1984 Cadillac Unknown Model-Rear Wheel Drive
1979/87 Chevy C30 Dually
1970's Cadillac Eldorodo
1984 3/4 Ton GMC Truck
1980 Chevy Suburban
1980's 1 ton 4x4 pick-up

Here is a load of info on hydroboost brakes and different set ups.None of this is specific to our vehicles. LINKY

Trouble shooting HYDROBOOST.

Proper hose routing.


Here is a Fox body Mustang Hydroboost swap using a Chevy Astro unit. LINKY

Here is another using SN95 Cobra pedal assembly. LINKY

Just in case no one has seen this yet. MN12 LINKS

[Nitemare]

Originally Posted by master486

No they aren't. "Hyrdoboost" systems are powered by hydraulic pressure from the steering system. The early ABS systems on the MN12 were standalone units.

TEVES II is still a hydraulically boosted brake system. It's an electric pump rather than being tied into the power steering, so I guess it can't properly be called "Hydroboost."

[ben2go]

I measured the master cylinder and booster set up in my car.It measures 11 and 5/8 inches from the fire wall to the end of the master cylinder and 3 and 1/4 inches between the master cylinder mounting studs.I have the basic non ABS with front disc and drums in the rear.This is just in case someone maybe curious.

THE PLAN

The plan is to upgrade to Mark VIII proportioning valve,rear disc and the larger front disc and spindles.Upgrade to a four wheel disc non ABS T-bird master cylinder,hydroboost from 1982-89 Lincoln Continental,and power it all with a power steering pump from a 1977 Lincoln Mark V (Napa # NSP208606).I can use the stock power steering lines.The return line from the steering gear will stay the same.A custom bent hard line will be used to connect the stock high pressure line to the hydroboost unit.Then a 1982-89 Lincoln Continental hydroboost to steering gear line will connect the two together.I will use standard transmission hose for the return from the hydroboost back to the power steering pump.The return lines are low pressure so the transmission hose will work nicely.I will be plumbing everything like the diagram above except I will be using two return lines for better flow out of the hydroboost and steering gear.The 1977 Lincoln Mark V has two return ports for this.


Here is the crappy stock set up.


And this little gem was growling when I parked the car over 5 years ago.

[ben2go]

Looks like I maybe using a non ABS 4 wheel disc brake Crown Vic master cylinder.I'm told the non ABS 4 wheel disc brake T-bird master cylinders are two line units.

[Johnny Langton]

V10 F350 duallys from '05-present are hydroboost.
That system should transfer right over to the 4.6L's without a bunch of issues-the pump from the 6.8L will bolt directly to the block on the 4.6L.
JL

[ben2go]

Originally Posted by Johnny Langton

V10 F350 duallys from '05-present are hydroboost.
That system should transfer right over to the 4.6L's without a bunch of issues-the pump from the 6.8L will bolt directly to the block on the 4.6L.
JL

That's good info.

I originally thought I'd build a 5.8L/351W and use V belts or a truck assessory drive.That plan maybe changing quick,if I can get my hands on a wrecked SC that I have been looking at.Just waiting for the garage to finalize everything and let me have a look at the car.

[tbirdtess]

Hello

Will there be a Hp or torque loss?
extra load on the pump?

With a big cam there is a Vacuum loss.

[ben2go]

Originally Posted by tbirdtess

Hello

Will there be a Hp or torque loss?
extra load on the pump?

With a big cam there is a Vacuum loss.

Those I have talked to say that it's no more strain than the stock steering and less when running the hydro boost only.The people I know that have done it own muscle cars.I have yet to find an MN12 conversion.A cam with heavy valve overlap causes a severe decrease in vacuum.Some people use vacuum accumulators or vacuum pumps.I have had both electric and belt driven vacuum pumps fail on me.So I don't trust those systems on the street.

I'm trying to hold onto my money until I see if I can get this wrecked SC I been eyeing.I still plan on doing the hydroboost swap and I will do a detailed write up when I do.