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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-12-2009, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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Project: 1990 Thunderbird SC

Buddy of mine (1_bad_bird) finally decided it was time to rebuild the motor in his sc bird! I've put in quite a bit of wrench time on it so far getting the motor ready to come out! Everything is outta the way not so all we gotta do is get a cherry picker n pull 'er on out!

i'll get a list of what we're gonna do to it! or have done to it!

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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 03:52 AM Thread Starter
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 06:29 PM
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Nice work! Can't wait to see how it works out.

Stephen

Winter mods included:
- Developing Rocker Rust
- Saggy Suspension - fixed!
- Chipped paint
- I'm sure more to come... TOTALED
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-01-2009, 12:27 AM Thread Starter
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Got the motor and tranny seperated. flywheel has a couple of chipped teeth on it... no biggie. gonna be trashed anyways. used aluminum cobra pumkin came in last friday with cobra half shafts... tranny will be sent off and rebuilt. motor is going to be bored i believe 30 to 40 over... my buddy dave got a quote from marc brown at advanced engine... marc said he can build us a 450hp motor for around $4,500 that 450 is just the motor, it does not include the supercharger and other goodies. supercharger will be ported... ummm not sure what else is in store for it. probably going to look into a snow meth kit like jobe has... i'm shooting for 550 to 600hp when it's all said and done. we'll see what happens.

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-05-2009, 02:48 PM
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450hp on a 231 cubic inch engine is about 2hp per cube without boost???

holy, jesus, mary, joseph, i hope you own a bank or two. When its all said and done
your going to be at LEAST 30k in the hole.

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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 12:25 PM
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Got the motor and tranny seperated. flywheel has a couple of chipped teeth on it... no biggie. gonna be trashed anyways. used aluminum cobra pumkin came in last friday with cobra half shafts... tranny will be sent off and rebuilt. motor is going to be bored i believe 30 to 40 over... my buddy dave got a quote from marc brown at advanced engine... marc said he can build us a 450hp motor for around $4,500 that 450 is just the motor, it does not include the supercharger and other goodies. supercharger will be ported... ummm not sure what else is in store for it. probably going to look into a snow meth kit like jobe has... i'm shooting for 550 to 600hp when it's all said and done. we'll see what happens.
You are not going to get anywhere close to 450 HP normally aspirated out of that motor for $4,500...If Marc Brown told you he could, he is either a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about.

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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You are not going to get anywhere close to 450 HP normally aspirated out of that motor for $4,500...If Marc Brown told you he could, he is either a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about.

David
Well he builds/has built motors for Monster trucks! He's got a very good reputation here and he stands by his work! if he says he can do it i believe it! We'll see what happens! i'll be putting the list of parts on here for the motor later tonight.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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Alright here's what's in store for the motor:

-Engle Rods
-MLS Gaskets
-Custom made forged crank (polished)
-Bore... 30 or 40 over
-Balanced
-Mill the heads and then port and polish
-Mill the block
-Valve job
- T-up Mains
-lumpy Cam (not sure how lumpy)
-Lifters
-Valve springs

there's way more than that but i'm not exactly sure where the rest of the list went. that's what i could find.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 11:00 PM
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Well he builds/has built motors for Monster trucks! He's got a very good reputation here and he stands by his work! if he says he can do it i believe it! We'll see what happens! i'll be putting the list of parts on here for the motor later tonight.
Apparently the guy doesn't know much about SC motors. If he did, he would tell you how the SC heads will never flow enough air to support that kind of power. Even when CNC ported, with welded exhaust ports, oversized valves and larger valve seats, the best flowing heads are going to be around 235 CFM intake @ .600 lift and 200 CFM exhaust @ .600 lift. There are no aftermarket heads for an SC, just reworked versions of the factory heads.

Then there's the crappy SC intake manifold....even if you could manage to get a pair of heads to flow way better than the numbers I mentioned above, the pancake sytle intake manifold, would be your next obstacle. Even when cut apart and reworked for greater plenum volume, it still kills flow going into the intake runners because of the screwed up air entry angle. A better intake manifold could be made and a couple prototypes for use with bottom discharge twin screw blowers have already been made, but it's still in development and will likely cost over $2K each.

Compression on the motor is also going to have to stay down to around 9.0:1 or it won't tolerate any ignition timing without detonation when you add the boost, unless you plan on running with race fuel all the time. That isn't enough compression/cylinder pressure to make the kind of power your expecting. So unless this guy is planning to build a motor capable of turning 9000 rpms and figure out how to get much more air in the motor, 450 HP naturally aspirated is not happening.

You can make 600 HP with an SC motor, but it's going to need a chemical power adder or forced induction to do it. Think twin screw or turbo...not an M90 based blower. The parts you listed so far, are the same stuff that most people are already using (except for a custom forged crank), and not even as good as what some of us are using. About that crank...you can either use a stock SC crank (forged), offset grind the SC forged crank for more stroke (they always break), use a 4.2 cast crank from a truck motor (what most people do), or have a billet crank custom made for about $2400. You might want to get the builder to clarify what he intends to use.

Good luck with your project.

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ

Last edited by David Neibert; 09-08-2009 at 11:11 PM.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 11:28 PM
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x2 im with david on this, i dont see how its even remotely feasible to cram more than 250hp out of a sc engine with no boost and still maintain a low enough CR to boost it?

you might want to cut your 600hp goal in half and call it done.

or you can go the easy route and turbo it then say hello to 450hp

and a lumpy cam is typically not optimum for a boosted application

and also you might want to check out sccoa.com many folks have spent thousands more
and still haven't broken the 500rwhp mark. The sc engine is a fun engine I know i have 3 sitting downstairs in my garage, but its just not that easy to make that much power.

your really asking alot out of a small engine

supercoupin'

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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we'll see guys... i'll keep ya'll posted

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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-10-2009, 01:24 PM
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x2 im with david on this, i dont see how its even remotely feasible to cram more than 250hp out of a sc engine with no boost and still maintain a low enough CR to boost it?

you might want to cut your 600hp goal in half and call it done.

or you can go the easy route and turbo it then say hello to 450hp

and a lumpy cam is typically not optimum for a boosted application

and also you might want to check out sccoa.com many folks have spent thousands more
and still haven't broken the 500rwhp mark. The sc engine is a fun engine I know i have 3 sitting downstairs in my garage, but its just not that easy to make that much power.

your really asking alot out of a small engine
I've gotten over 500 rwhp (aprox 535 rwhp) from a 3.8 SC motor, but it required a 100 HP shot of nitrous to do it.

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-28-2009, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
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crank, cam and pistons are out... no metal in the oil pan! you can still see the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls. pistons kinda look like **** but everything else looks really good! like (motor has been re-worked recently) good. regardless, it's ready to be sent off!

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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 04:33 PM
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x2 im with david on this, i dont see how its even remotely feasible to cram more than 250hp out of a sc engine with no boost and still maintain a low enough CR to boost it?

you might want to cut your 600hp goal in half and call it done.

or you can go the easy route and turbo it then say hello to 450hp

and a lumpy cam is typically not optimum for a boosted application

and also you might want to check out sccoa.com many folks have spent thousands more
and still haven't broken the 500rwhp mark. The sc engine is a fun engine I know i have 3 sitting downstairs in my garage, but its just not that easy to make that much power.

your really asking alot out of a small engine
Update:

Chris Wise pulled 505 rwhp on Dyno Dynamics heart breaker dyno this past weekend at the SC Shootout. Combo is as follows...4.2 crank in an SC motor with T-68 turbo and 22 pounds of boost through a non locking C4. First pass it ran 10.6 @ 130 on drag radials.

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-08-2009, 09:44 PM
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dam david thats pretty cool, im putting an mp t70 on my friends 90sc trying to make 550hp, but were stepping the game up to 30 lbs of boost

he has a 4.2 stroker as well

supercoupin'

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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-26-2009, 05:26 PM
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holy crap! that look like a lot of work lol

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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-31-2009, 02:27 PM
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hey OP

blkbrd95... im an authorized retailer for bhj balancers, if your interested the SFI balancers for the 89-93 i sell for $350 + $10 for shipping anywhere in the 48 states

just let me know via PM

and also... you said in a previous post that your sending the block off?
where are you sending it? if you want a reputable machine shop that has hands on experience with the sc's and owns 5 supercoupes post back in your reply.
but honestly your best option would be to get it done locally, the cost of shipping would be outrageous.

but if you do decide to send it elsewhere thats cool as well, were pretty slammed right now so it would probably be at least a month before we could even touch it.

a couple things i'd like to point out to you, the stock valve springs are weak they only have 80lbs on the seat which is terrible for heat removal and high revs. And also our aluminum heads tear up valve guides so expect to have those replaced as well. Make sure when the machine shop decks the block and resurfaces the heads that they keep a low enough RA for mls gaskets, you have to let them know about that before hand else most shops will just set the decking machine and turn it out as quick as possible.

the arp heads studs for the chevrolet 2.8L v6 works for our 3.8s. Just order some arp head studs for an 86 chevy celebrity 2.8L of course. Save you some bucks.

make sure you use copper rtv on the mls gaskets, spray the gasket not the deck nor the head.

the mls gaskets I use are specific for a 97 ford f150 with the 4.2l v6. You'll need to drill one of the rivets out but its no biggie. The price just went down on them from felpro so most suppliers dropped there prices a couple dollars. They can be had rather easily for $46 per side.

it would be a real good idea to change out the stock crank pulley, they have weights on them that usually fall out with time. This could cause the crank to walk a tad. I can't verify that but every sc block we've dealth with had crank walk for some reason or another.

theres a ton more info i could give you but it'll take days and me recalling memory banks in my brain that i haven't accessed in a short while.

don't hesitate to pm me if you need/want any more suggestions or advice or recommendations or anything.

Michael Ponthieux

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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-31-2009, 05:37 PM
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what do the balancers really do?

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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-26-2009, 11:15 AM
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the harmonic balancer does just that, it balances the rotating assembly and also dampens vibrations, thus its also known as a vibration damper.

our supercoupes are 0 neutral internal balanced thus we technically have vibration dampers, the bhj balancers (dampers) are much more durable than the original oem balancers.

When the stock balancers fail they usually do some damage, if your lucky you only have to chip out the remains of the original crank bolt out the crank. If your unlucky you have to replace the crank and or timing cover

supercoupin'

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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-28-2009, 03:03 PM
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kool. good do to know. i though it was just another performance mod.

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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 11-28-2009, 04:59 PM
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kool. good do to know. i though it was just another performance mod.
It can be if youre turning it much higher than stock.

Spinning pies like wheels.

DD driving my 20 year old project

Now with new ball joints...again
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-07-2009, 02:41 PM
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we'll see guys... i'll keep ya'll posted
What's the latest info on this project ?

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-07-2009, 03:03 PM
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Probably EBAY selling it for parts. LOL

I would like this engine builder to defy the years of accumulated Knowledge that SCCOA has.

And


Good luck
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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-07-2009, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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david... as of now the motor still sits in the garage... nothing new to report sadly enough. seems he's lost interest in it yet again... there's nothing left to do to the motor... it's completely bare.

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-08-2009, 02:17 PM
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david... as of now the motor still sits in the garage... nothing new to report sadly enough. seems he's lost interest in it yet again... there's nothing left to do to the motor... it's completely bare.
Are you saying that the engine builder (Marc Brown) has lost interest or someone else lost interest ? If you are looking for someone else to build you a strong running SC motor, look up Dave Dalke (XR7Dave) over on SCCoA.

Good luck, David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-08-2009, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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no my buddy... the owner of the car has lost interest... he's not going to take the motor to mark brown now anyways... talked to some guys that mark had built dirt track motors for and they all said that they had top in parts fail... there's another guy that has been deemed a much more reliable builder! if and when my buddy decides to take the motor to him we'll se what he can do. i've heard of david dalke... jason jobe has gotten some things from him and he told me to check him out. honestly i've lost interest in my buddy's sc just because of all the work i did and now it's just sitting there... kinda depressing to know that i did all that work for nothing... besides the fact that my bird now needs some major attention. so she's top priority!

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 01:55 PM
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Probably EBAY selling it for parts. LOL

I would like this engine builder to defy the years of accumulated Knowledge that SCCOA has.

And


Good luck
I'd be willing to bet this engine builder MEANT he could build the engine to HANDLE 450 Hp, not produce it N/A.

Just giving the dude the benifit...

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