Overheating, replaced everything and still... overheating! Help! - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-25-2013, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Overheating, replaced everything and still... overheating! Help!

1992 SC, 5-speed, 101K miles.

New head gaskets, new water pump, new radiator, new thermostat, new coolent temperature sensor, and tonight I swapped out the IRCM with the same label, and. it's. still. over. heating!

Can anybody tell me what to check and how to check it so I can get this SOB to run without overheating?

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92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-25-2013, 09:51 PM
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You might be running too lean..

Check your Spark Plugs-->>Spark Plug Eye Chart

Is everything stock?



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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-25-2013, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
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Yep, stock, runs strong!

Gradually builds temp, thermostat opens, temp sorta stablizes then it starts to climb.

I been running the AC eventhough it needs a charge, and with the fan forced deu to the A/C it seems to maintain. This led me to swap out the IRCM since the fan doesn't seem to want to turn on when the temp starts to climb.

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95 SHO MTX 73K grn/tan
93 SHO MTX 175K blu/blk
92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-29-2013, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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So this is probably the head gaskets, given that a healthy SC simply doesn't operate at a temperature where the fan's have to kick on the control the temp.

I've been driving around in my 89 after doing a HG and water pump job, just like with this car. And the temp never rises above the "O" in norm on the guage. Where on the 92 SC the temp rises to where the thermostate opens and then it keeps rising.

After consulting with DD he advised this may a combination of using MLS HG's and not putting a perfect surface on the block.

Regretfully I suppose it's back into this one to re-replace the MLS with a standard Felpro gasket.

Live and learn, ... hopefully!

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92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-29-2013, 11:58 AM
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I would test to see if you are getting combustion gases into the coolant before ripping the heads back off the motor. If not, then it probably is not your problem. Also, even if the HGs are bad, the fan should still come on once the temp comes up. Maybe replace the coolant temp sensor first? If it isn't giving the right reading to the ECM, then it might not command the fan on until the temp is way up.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2013, 07:54 PM
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i believe he said he changed that,before i would tear back into it i would be certain that the guage is really giving you correct temp.You can get one of those radiator caps with the temp guage built into it i have one on my 66 t bird because the guage was so unreliable.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-31-2013, 09:44 PM
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fan

On my 89 it was running hot, and I clipped #14 wire on the fan control (behind the passenger's side headlight) The fan is on low with the key on, you could try it or put a switch inside to turn it on. Also under the front bumper there is a small air dam that is suppose to pull the air up to the radiator

It's amazing on how long it takes to finish something you're not working on.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-01-2013, 07:28 PM
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Chris my availability has changed since we last talked, I will be available next Saturday after 3 and all day Sunday more than willing to come by and give you a hand. I can't do it this weekend cause I'm moving.

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-02-2013, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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I may fool around with it this weekend some more.

I'm a little fed up with this SC, the 89 seems to be running well though so I got that going for me!

Steve I have my Granddaughter visiting the weekend of the 10th so I may not be interested in spending too much time on cars but we'll see give me a call when it gets closer and we'll assess the situation and make a plan.

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92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-04-2013, 10:22 AM
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Work schedule is a set schedule now, I work from 8-6 Monday - Friday and Saturday 8-3, so let me know when and what you need help with so I can make sure I grab the needed tools before I leave work.

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Well I dug into the 89 in order to check the quality of work recently performed during a head gasket R&R. Both fuel pressure regulator and bypass actuator were running w/o vacuum lines attached.

Fixed that Saturday! BIG Thanks To Matt XR7-4.6 for helping out. Always a pleasant and capable assistant or point man. PS Poly tubing max temp withstand, 125F replaced the bypass actuator tube with the proper rubber vac line (capable of withstanding the underhood temps) but didn't have the motivation to dig down to the FPR again. Instead I tore apart the passenger door window regulator, replaced it with a good motor I had on hand instead of the beat up reman'd unit at Pep Boys. I guess I should lay in another passenger side window motor from RA just in case.

Dropped the 92 off at Pep Boys Sunday to test the coolant/fans/etc... for the overheating condition. Hope to hear from them today.

A few parts I need:
Wiper motor assembly.
Passenger door lower window guide.
If anybody has these or comes across them, please let me know.

Platoribs House of SHO
95 SHO MTX 73K grn/tan
93 SHO MTX 175K blu/blk
92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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So Pep Boys calls me up yesterday and asks me what the problem is and what's been done to the car leading up to dropping it off with them. So I explain all the stuff I had already explained to the service manager when I dropped the car off Sunday to the Monday service manager! Wait till later in the day and acll him back to hear... "you car is definately overheating, but we can't figure out what's wrong, there was no combustion gas contaminantes in the coolant, maybe you should replace your t-stat? No charge, cause we couldn't find or fix anything..." Now the whole no charge thing makes me enormously suspicious that they messed up something, or they just don't want to work on an SC. regardless I'm no further with the diagnosis unless I can trust them regarding the "not bad head gasket" diagnosis.

I'm planning on dropping it off at another speciality shop that I think might know more. moreover this shop is who did the water pump in the first place.

I still question if the fans are coming on at the right time (temp), I did pull the thermostat housing off and verified the part number and even boiled the state and verified it was functioning as it should. Reassembled it and drove it to work this morning, still overheating, still somewhat controlled by running the A/C (forcing low speed fan to operate).

If anybody have some detailed diagnostice advice, especially ringing out the pins and what they should be indicating for proper fan operation, that would be very much appreciated. I would supply this information to my next shop in the hopes they could pin down the problem once and for all.

Thanks in advance for your kind and knowledgeble advise.

Chris/Plat0

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93 SHO MTX 175K blu/blk
92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 02:39 PM
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How hot does it get? Does the coolant boil? Will the car overheat cruising down the highway? If so, that pretty much rules out the fan. If it overheats when sitting idling, will the fan ever come on before it overheats? Does the system hold pressure? Is there a noticable temperature difference between the upper and lower hoses? If you turn on the heater, do you get heat? If so, can you notice a temp difference between the 2 heater hoses with the heat on?

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 04:07 PM
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Which T-stat do you have? If 180 with stock EEC this may be the problem.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 04:22 PM
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Maybe the sensor is out of whack. Get something that can read the sensor the computer sees.
Never mind. I missed that part of the first post. I'd still read the other sensor though

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-07-2013, 09:10 PM
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I told you Chris I can help you out with it just let me know. I'm always willing to help a friend and fellow enthusiast.

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Thread at SCCoA...
http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131090

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
How hot does it get? Does the coolant boil? Will the car overheat cruising down the highway? If so, that pretty much rules out the fan. If it overheats when sitting idling, will the fan ever come on before it overheats? Does the system hold pressure? Is there a noticeable temperature difference between the upper and lower hoses? If you turn on the heater, do you get heat? If so, can you notice a temp difference between the 2 heater hoses with the heat on?
Gauge indicates over "M" (NORM), swapped the gauge sending unit, same result. Fan starts with AC on or when ECT connector is pulled, New Thermostat checked in a pot o water. New Radiator, new ECT, new water pump new (2 years ago MLS Head Gaskets with no problems up till the water pump was replaced).

Sorry for the no replies I've been occasionally trying to sort out this problem along with a host of other life issues and I'm not the best diagnostician around. The fans will not come on despite the gauge indicating they should (by comparison to the other 89 SC I have that is operating normally.

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92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
86 Mercedes-Benz 300e

Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 09-02-2013 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Merge posts
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-26-2013, 04:10 PM
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Check all grounds and power wires. I was having similar issue and found mouse damage (wires not even related to the EEC or cool) repaired them and car is much better and indicating a temp I more used to.

I'd make sure you are really seeing over heating (get a mechanical gauge to check against best would be at the gauge sending unit, ECT and Radiator).

No obstructions in front of the A/C?

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-27-2013, 07:20 AM
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OK, so the fan doesn't come on at all when sitting idling, but it will come on with the AC on. I'll look up the wiring diagram and see exactly how that is controlled/triggered. Will the car overheat sitting idling with the AC on? If so, then you have another problem besides the fan. You say this started when the water pump was replaced? Why was the pump replaced? Do you have another pump you can install to see if perhaps the one you got was defective?

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2013, 11:38 AM Thread Starter
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It was a new bosch water pump, I had it replaced by a shop.

The AC system isn't properly charged, I was using the dash control to force the fan in order to just use the car to/from work (6 miles). During this drive it will get over the M on the guage. If I force the fans with the AC it'll just barely keep it at the M.

Right after I had the water pump replaced I drove the car from Chicago to St. Louis. it was overheating while in traffic, but when I got it out on the road it seemed to be ok. No idea if the fan was working at all during this trip.

If I run it idling in the driveway it'll eventually climb over the M.

Mikey, I appreciate you're continued advice. I'm currently driving the 89 so I can let the 92 sit until I find another diagnostic I can try. I'm trying to get one of the loal TCCoA club members to stop by with more diagnostics chops than my feeble attempts.

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93 SHO MTX 175K blu/blk
92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2013, 08:16 AM
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The ONLY thing that stopped my overheating issue in my TBird was a 2003 Cobra all-aluminum radiator.

Trust me, I went through changing EVERYTHING (some things multiple times) - hoses, t-stats, water pump, belts, sending units, front spoiler, coolant, intake crossover, even a NEW TBird radiator!


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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2013, 12:45 PM
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I have two cars do this to me in the past. I had to remove the water pump to verify, but blades where not spinning with the pulley. One of the cars the blades where completely off the other they did not spin. Worth checking out.
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2013, 12:50 PM
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what is the temp drop for one side of the radiatior to the other. Look for hot and cold spots.
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2013, 01:54 PM
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Looking for a temp drop from one side to the other won't help on an SC because it is a top-to-bottom flow, not a cross flow. A Cobra rad is not an option either for an SC. Additionally, its one thing for a cooling system not to be able to keep up with summer in Florida, but he should have no problem in Chicago, and his other SC works fine, so clearly there is something wrong with this car.

If the temp stays at the M, that is fine. If the fan comes on when you unplug the coolant temp sensor, that means that the fan relay is good, the wiring from the sensor to the ECM is good, and the ECM's ability to command the fan on is working. If the engine then is overheating, and the fan does not come on, that tells me that the ECM is not getting the coolant temp signal. This would mean either the sensor is no good, the ECM is no good, or perhaps the sensor for the computer is not immersed in coolant. Did you bleed the cooling system when the water pump was replaced? If not, that would be step one. Once the coolant level is verified, and you know that there aren't any air bubbles in the system, next I would hook up to a scanner of some sort and look at what temp the ECM thinks the coolant is. The gauge and the ECM use different sensors, so just because the gauge reads, doesn't mean that is the temp the ECM thinks it is. I suspect you either have an air bubble, or a bad coolant temp sensor, and that one of those 2 will fix your problem.

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2013, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Regarding trapped air, I did as instructed, filled the reservoir to cold level, cycled the car from cold to hot over a few days, lifted the relief on the radiator cap, watched the reservoir until there was only water being pushed in/out through the heat up/cool down cycle, no bubbles, running or not. Then in order to confirm there was no air trapped in the column where the ECT in located, I eased the ECT out while the car was hot, watched the coolant seep through the threads, tightened it all back together and continued testing.

Hoping my club guy will drop by with a good Pro Scanner so we can see what the EEC is seeing.

Question: are there any wires on the way in or out of changing the steering rack, or water pump that could prevent the signal getting from the ECT to the IRCM or EEC?

And is there a way I can verify waterpump operation without removing the part?

PS: Thanks MadMikeyL for the clear concise advice. I'll verify the ECT

Platoribs House of SHO
95 SHO MTX 73K grn/tan
93 SHO MTX 175K blu/blk
92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
86 Mercedes-Benz 300e

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2013, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platoribs View Post
Regarding trapped air, I did as instructed, filled the reservoir to cold level, cycled the car from cold to hot over a few days, lifted the relief on the radiator cap, watched the reservoir until there was only water being pushed in/out through the heat up/cool down cycle, no bubbles, running or not. Then in order to confirm there was no air trapped in the column where the ECT in located, I eased the ECT out while the car was hot, watched the coolant seep through the threads, tightened it all back together and continued testing.

Hoping my club guy will drop by with a good Pro Scanner so we can see what the EEC is seeing.

Question: are there any wires on the way in or out of changing the steering rack, or water pump that could prevent the signal getting from the ECT to the IRCM or EEC?

And is there a way I can verify waterpump operation without removing the part?
I didn't know if the 3.8 cars used the same radiator or not; sorry for the bad advice.

Do you have a radiator cap on your car? You can just leave the cap off with the engine running to check the water pump operation - once the engine comes up to temp and the tstat opens, you will see the water circulating if it's pumping.

If you can't watch it, just grab the upper hose near the radiator - it should be hot and under pressure. If it's cool, water ain't circulating.....

Find someone with one of those laser temperature guns - we use one at the shop all the time to check temps (point it at different points of the radiator, the water pump, the thermostat, hoses, etc).

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-04-2013, 07:45 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Find someone with one of those laser temperature guns - we use one at the shop all the time to check temps (point it at different points of the radiator, the water pump, the thermostat, hoses, etc).
I'll swing by Harbor Freight and buy one of these b/4 the next session with this problem.

I believe there is something keeping the fan from running despite all the verifications it works.

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95 SHO MTX 73K grn/tan
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92 SC M5R2 98K Red/Grey tweed ->Blk Cloth SC
89 SC M5R2 112K Blu/Blk Shiny Cobra's! *coming out party, May 20th 2012* Now with moar suspension, brakes and slave cylinder...
91 SC M5R2 100K blk/blk tweed building
86 Mercedes-Benz 300e
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-04-2013, 10:51 PM
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are you sure your cap is good. I see alot of mid ninety hondas with bad caps that over heat. Just a thought
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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-29-2013, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Took it to a shop willing to ring out the circuits to confirm the failed component.

He was able to commend the high speed fan but not the low speed. Checked all the wires/components and advised the EEC isn't processing the low speed fan.

I'm investigating getting the EEC fixed by mail with a guy in Minneapolis.

If anybody has a confirmed, fully, functional 92 5-speed EEC for sale please LMK the shipped to 60107 price at your earleist conveninece.

I'm hoping to resolve this before next weekend so I can take it to the Shootout.

TIA

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86 Mercedes-Benz 300e
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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-30-2013, 12:12 AM
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I'd check with Ron, he has a 92.

Phrum Steve

89 Thunderbird SC 3.8SC W/ Factory manual
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94 Thunderbird LX 3.8 N/A Automatic
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sold, sadly

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