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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-17-2011, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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4.6 SOHC header options?

I'd like to know what all options are there for headers either OEM or otherwise that I can bolt onto my 4.6 because some genius chopped up the exhaust right behind the stock flange. I could have an exhaust built from there back for a decent price and I'd like to get something better to throw while it's apart. I'd also prefer to not to have to cut and weld or pay a crazy high price.

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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-17-2011, 08:20 AM
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Lol, i'm gonna suggest the "search" button before all the others blast ya. This has been discussed many, many times.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-17-2011, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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I use the search button every time I have a question, all I ever get are threads filled with people saying "Use the search!!"

It's just redundant.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-17-2011, 01:09 PM
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And this just adds to the redundancy.

Search titles only sorted by number of replies for the good discussion threads.

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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-01-2011, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Miakehl View Post
I'd like to get something better to throw while it's apart. I'd also prefer to not to have to cut and weld .
Well, to put it bluntly.....
You're screwed.
JL

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-01-2011, 11:04 AM
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What he said.


But really, your options are limited to the JBA and SS Autochrome headers for bolt on, which most everyone agrees aren't worth anything. Your best option for bolt on would be the ported manifolds most guys run, or dig deep for the Kooks. If you can get past your aversion to cutting and welding, see the sticky at the top of this forum for pics and info on how I modified the MAC longtubes to fit. After that there is a guy in Ohio who makes lontubes designed to fit these cars, but at $1300 I doubt you want to go down that road.

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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-01-2011, 06:32 PM
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Ported manifolds or Kooks is the best bolt on options. Both offer real gains what gains those are depends on the rest of the car. Shorties offer nothing but the potential to crack.

How is it you can swap a 6 to an 8 and not be able to mod some mac long tubes like cableguy did?

So Im guessing no one here has those 1300 buck long tubes.

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 05:48 AM
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So Im guessing no one here has those 1300 buck long tubes.
I'll bet if someone suggested that they also fit M3's, they would be a hot seller....

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 09:38 AM
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I just picked up a set of pi heads that came with these headers. they are from a 5.4l, flow more and hug the engine. not sure if anyone else has gone this route but I'll be trying em out.

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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 09:49 AM
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I just picked up a set of pi heads that came with these headers. they are from a 5.4l, flow more and hug the engine. not sure if anyone else has gone this route but I'll be trying em out.
]
Those look to be no better than what we have stock, not to mention the EGR tube would be on the wrong side

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
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I just picked up a set of pi heads that came with these headers. they are from a 5.4l, flow more and hug the engine. not sure if anyone else has gone this route but I'll be trying em out.

Are these what you're planning on using to make 600 hp on your "NO expenses spared" build?
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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 01:15 PM
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they have longtubes in suoercoupeperformance.com but there quite expensive
I had the JBA unequals on my car liked them quite a bit no welding involved there. they bolt up to stock exaust
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 01:19 PM
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they have longtubes in suoercoupeperformance.com but there quite expensive
I had the JBA unequals on my car liked them quite a bit no welding involved there. they bolt up to stock exaust
Supercoupeperformance sells Kooks.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 01:20 PM
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Stock unported manifolds > JBA

Kooks are mid length.

-Matt
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 06:15 PM
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Are these what you're planning on using to make 600 hp on your "NO expenses spared" build?
JL
and we have a contender for the first person on my ignore list.
might want to take some tylenol your head seems to be swelling with moderator powers.

I'm going to ask nicely... dont reply to my posts anymore.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 06:28 PM
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Hey money bags ("Mr. I pull in 10K a month") buy some real headers. How do you know your rusty old truck manifolds flow more?

Even a lowly commoner such as myself has a set of Kooks on my car.

JL is amongst the most knowledgeable on this site.

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 06:41 PM
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Long Tubes

If you buy a set of Long Tube headers (by far the best choice) for a 96-04 Mustang, there is a member on here that will modify the driver's side header so they will fit your Thunderbird (around the steering shaft).

I can't remember his name, but I'm sure he will speak up here and if you search with the right keywords, you can find him!

Many here are happy with the Kooks mid-lengths and I am sure they are awesome, too. But, as you've already seen, they require a mortgage to get 'em! lol

Oh snap! Here is the thread on the long-tubes:
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=133912

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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetKeym View Post
If you buy a set of Long Tube headers (by far the best choice) for a 96-04 Mustang, there is a member on here that will modify the driver's side header so they will fit your Thunderbird (around the steering shaft).

I can't remember his name, but I'm sure he will speak up here and if you search with the right keywords, you can find him!

Many here are happy with the Kooks mid-lengths and I am sure they are awesome, too. But, as you've already seen, they require a mortgage to get 'em! lol

Oh snap! Here is the thread on the long-tubes:
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=133912
I can't remember his name either but I hear he is an a**hole, hahahaha. Check my thread, I stand by what I said in there. If your serious, send me a PM we can talk about it. But only if your serious, I'm not gonna do any run around games.

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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-18-2011, 09:05 PM
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hrmmm 3v headers share a bolt pattern (from exhaust manifold gaskets). flow great compared to our logs, they are still cast iron and a quickie fab job gets you an adapter plate to go from our O shaped ports to the 3v D shaped ports.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 08:42 AM
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+1 for Kooks. I noticed a huge gain when I installed mine, and you won't find anything better. If you're not in a hurry, keep an eye on the for sale forums an you can find them used for a little less.

And you might not wanna be so hasty with the more knowledgeable people on the site. You might be burning bridges with people you need help from in the future.

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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by NetKeym View Post
If you buy a set of Long Tube headers (by far the best choice) for a 96-04 Mustang, there is a member on here that will modify the driver's side header so they will fit your Thunderbird (around the steering shaft).
How are Long tubes better than the Kooks? Any results proving this statement or are you spouting off again?

One of the best performing header for the S197 Mustang 3V is the Kooks Mid Length header, it is considered a long tube but it really is a mid length. That header has out performed all of the Long Tubes except American Racing Headers long tube. The comparison between those 2 is very close with the Kooks being cheaper.

Last I checked, there is no results of the Long tube headers on the TBird chassis especially compared to the Kooks that are available to us currently...

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 01:51 PM
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Results will be coming very very soon. And as for whats better, who knows. Can't say until it gets on the dyno and even then it will be best guess. But 800 bucks or whatever they cost for the Kooks, or the $250 I have in mine, thats where I win. And even if you bought a new set of headers for 400 bucks or whatever they are and modified them your still ahead of the game. So say all the gains are equal, cheaper wins. Unless you have no skills and/or no desire to do the modifications and won't do anything except bolt on, then Kooks are where you need to be. And not saying there is anything wrong with that, no headaches or effort is fine, I usually prefer that road, but I refuse to spend money foolishly when I know I can make something just as good if not better for less than half. Just my viewpoint though.

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TGJ View Post
How are Long tubes better than the Kooks? Any results proving this statement or are you spouting off again?

One of the best performing header for the S197 Mustang 3V is the Kooks Mid Length header, it is considered a long tube but it really is a mid length. That header has out performed all of the Long Tubes except American Racing Headers long tube. The comparison between those 2 is very close with the Kooks being cheaper.

Last I checked, there is no results of the Long tube headers on the TBird chassis especially compared to the Kooks that are available to us currently...
Spouting off again? Anybody who knows anything about exhaust or has USED exhaust systems and proven how they perform will show you the benefit of long tubes. Why do you think the Kooks mid-lengths are better than the shorties? Do you have any idea what is actually going out? Do you think they "flow" better? Because that's not the answer. Do you think there is less "back pressure", well that may be true, but that ain't why long tubes are better than mid-lengths or mid lengths are better than shorties, either.

You're right, I haven't directly Kooks to long-tubes on a 4.6L engine. But I HAVE compared long-tubes to ANY exhaust on misc Chevys, Fords, & Dodges. The trick has to due with with the Equal length tubes and resonance frequencies. An engine pounds out sound waves through the exhaust - it's just the nature of the beast. With equal length long-tube headers, the reverberation (or the waves comeing back to the engine) are "in-tune", for lack of a better term, and assist scanvaging of the cylinders and flow. There are many more better descriptions on the Internet of what is going on, but I'm not that technically wordy to describe it perfectly, but I'm sure you can do a google and read all about it.

What I can tell you is this - EVERY SINGLE VEHICLE I've ever been in that has had long-tubes added (no matter what previous exhaust system was installed) has a seat-of-the-pants improvement and turn better time slips. So, I have seen and felt the results and I stand by my experiences and beliefs.

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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 08:04 PM
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Results will be coming very very soon. And as for whats better, who knows. Can't say until it gets on the dyno and even then it will be best guess. But 800 bucks or whatever they cost for the Kooks, or the $250 I have in mine, thats where I win. And even if you bought a new set of headers for 400 bucks or whatever they are and modified them your still ahead of the game. So say all the gains are equal, cheaper wins. Unless you have no skills and/or no desire to do the modifications and won't do anything except bolt on, then Kooks are where you need to be. And not saying there is anything wrong with that, no headaches or effort is fine, I usually prefer that road, but I refuse to spend money foolishly when I know I can make something just as good if not better for less than half. Just my viewpoint though.
These are the prices new for the Kooks and the Mac Long Tubes...

Kooks 3/4 TBird headers:

$770.00 - SS 2.5"
$845.00 - SS 3"

$826.00 - Jethot Coated Steel 2.5"
$901.00 - Jethot Coated Steel 3"

Mac LongTubes:

$500.00 - Jethot Coated
$400.00 - Chrome plated

Even if you buy used, the MAC's can be had for $100.00, I seriously doubt you will find used Kooks for under $350.00. I am not arguing that the MAC are cheaper, they are. My point is this.

The MAC Long Tube headers are NOT PROVEN to be better or even comparable to the performance gained with the KOOKS headers which is known. They MIGHT perform as well, they MIGHT perform better or they MIGHT perform worse. Until the gains/losses is shown with the Mac, NOBODY should be claiming they are better or even the best option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetKeym View Post
Spouting off again? Anybody who knows anything about exhaust or has USED exhaust systems and proven how they perform will show you the benefit of long tubes. Why do you think the Kooks mid-lengths are better than the shorties? Do you have any idea what is actually going out? Do you think they "flow" better? Because that's not the answer. Do you think there is less "back pressure", well that may be true, but that ain't why long tubes are better than mid-lengths or mid lengths are better than shorties, either.

You're right, I haven't directly Kooks to long-tubes on a 4.6L engine. But I HAVE compared long-tubes to ANY exhaust on misc Chevys, Fords, & Dodges. The trick has to due with with the Equal length tubes and resonance frequencies. An engine pounds out sound waves through the exhaust - it's just the nature of the beast. With equal length long-tube headers, the reverberation (or the waves comeing back to the engine) are "in-tune", for lack of a better term, and assist scanvaging of the cylinders and flow. There are many more better descriptions on the Internet of what is going on, but I'm not that technically wordy to describe it perfectly, but I'm sure you can do a google and read all about it.

What I can tell you is this - EVERY SINGLE VEHICLE I've ever been in that has had long-tubes added (no matter what previous exhaust system was installed) has a seat-of-the-pants improvement and turn better time slips. So, I have seen and felt the results and I stand by my experiences and beliefs.
What happens with older cars is not nessary true today. Take a good look at Kris Danner's 2011 Mustang GT. His car has the factory headers and factory airbox, but a modified exhaust. His car is making the same power as cars with aftermarket CAI's and Long tube header equipped 2011 Mustang GTs. He has one of the fastest cars. Guys are running the stock headers on 500+ N/A HP 5.0 2011 Mustang GTs. Long Tubes do not seem to have any benefit on the new 5.0L.

Step back a generation. The best performing headers for the 4.6 3V is a Mid length and a premium priced Long Tube. That debate is heavily contested on both sides as to which one is better. At the end of the day, it is so close that it the best is which ever one you feel like having.

On a 1970 Ford Boss 429 Mustang, I would agree with you that Long tubes would show a significant benefit/gain. On a today's muscle car, not so much. I think for a Long tube to show a benefit on a today's car, there is going to have to be some other serious mods to the car before it will show any benefit.

Again, I will refer to the 3V mustang world. For the Long Tubes to show benefit's in the 3V mustang, you are looking a full out N/A build (400 HP+) or a heavily modified SC'd car. If you don't have either of those, the Long Tubes are of no benefit to you.

On a bone stock 4.6L TBird, I am willing to bet that adding Kooks to it will have little or no benfit to it. For the Kooks to show a benefit, there needs to be some substantial mods to the car.

R.I.P. Johnny Langton (1975 - 2011)

1996 Thunderbird 5.0L 2V-4R70W
12.64 @ 107 MPH -> DA 3315 Ft above Sea level
12.49 @ 109 -> DA 2967 Ft above Sea level
2005 Mustang GT 4.6L 3V-TR3650 - SOLD
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2011 Mustang GT 5.0L 4V-6R80 - Bolt-ons
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGJ View Post
These are the prices new for the Kooks and the Mac Long Tubes...

Kooks 3/4 TBird headers:

$770.00 - SS 2.5"
$845.00 - SS 3"

$826.00 - Jethot Coated Steel 2.5"
$901.00 - Jethot Coated Steel 3"

Mac LongTubes:

$500.00 - Jethot Coated
$400.00 - Chrome plated

Even if you buy used, the MAC's can be had for $100.00, I seriously doubt you will find used Kooks for under $350.00. I am not arguing that the MAC are cheaper, they are. My point is this.

The MAC Long Tube headers are NOT PROVEN to be better or even comparable to the performance gained with the KOOKS headers which is known. They MIGHT perform as well, they MIGHT perform better or they MIGHT perform worse. Until the gains/losses is shown with the Mac, NOBODY should be claiming they are better or even the best option.




What happens with older cars is not nessary true today. Take a good look at Kris Danner's 2011 Mustang GT. His car has the factory headers and factory airbox, but a modified exhaust. His car is making the same power as cars with aftermarket CAI's and Long tube header equipped 2011 Mustang GTs. He has one of the fastest cars. Guys are running the stock headers on 500+ N/A HP 5.0 2011 Mustang GTs. Long Tubes do not seem to have any benefit on the new 5.0L.

Step back a generation. The best performing headers for the 4.6 3V is a Mid length and a premium priced Long Tube. That debate is heavily contested on both sides as to which one is better. At the end of the day, it is so close that it the best is which ever one you feel like having.

On a 1970 Ford Boss 429 Mustang, I would agree with you that Long tubes would show a significant benefit/gain. On a today's muscle car, not so much. I think for a Long tube to show a benefit on a today's car, there is going to have to be some other serious mods to the car before it will show any benefit.

Again, I will refer to the 3V mustang world. For the Long Tubes to show benefit's in the 3V mustang, you are looking a full out N/A build (400 HP+) or a heavily modified SC'd car. If you don't have either of those, the Long Tubes are of no benefit to you.

On a bone stock 4.6L TBird, I am willing to bet that adding Kooks to it will have little or no benfit to it. For the Kooks to show a benefit, there needs to be some substantial mods to the car.

Your absolutely correct, everything is a might and a maybe. So far as I know or have been told by anyone, my car is the first to have the MAC LT's on it. I know Aric @ Injected Engineering has a set of LT's for his car, but he told me last year they were not on the car and that they were on the shelf, and weren't MAC anyways. That being said, we all can agree the shorty headers are crap, so your left with stock manifoilds, ported manifolds, or Kooks. I don't know the price of ported manifolds, and you so very kindly put out the prices for the Kooks. So until I can prove differently, or anyone else for that matter, say the MAC's aren't as good as the Kooks, and that they flow worse. Not likely, but possible. Regardless of that, there is no way you or anyone else on the planet will ever be able to convince me that longtube headers will flow worse than either stock or ported manifolds and thus give little to no gains performance wise. That said put the performance gains in order of worst to first:

stock manifolds- free
ported manifolds-?? 300-400 I'm thinking though
MAC LT's new and modified $700(high estimate on mods considering it's about 40 bucks worth of material and 4 hours tops with welding)
Kooks cheapest $770

I'll concede that the price of the MAC's will go up if you have them recoated making them possibly more expensive than the Kooks. But thats if you buy them new and have someone else do all the work. And if your that type of person, your not gonna go that road anyways, your just going to buy the Kooks. So leave that as the best option for the car fine. But for me, and I speak only for me, unless I found used Kooks for cheap, I dont spend my money foolishly enough to be able to buy a set of $800 headers. I'll take my chances with the 90% chance that my modified LT's will outflow the midlengths and I have $250 in them. And remember, my $250 includes new Percy's gaskets and new Stage 8 header bolts. And one other point you keep bringing up, is the 3v Mustang world. This thread is about the 2v 4.6 in a T-bird and therefore in no way correlates to anything 3v let alone Mustang.

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-19-2011, 09:53 PM
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Your absolutely correct, everything is a might and a maybe. So far as I know or have been told by anyone, my car is the first to have the MAC LT's on it. I know Aric @ Injected Engineering has a set of LT's for his car, but he told me last year they were not on the car and that they were on the shelf, and weren't MAC anyways. That being said, we all can agree the shorty headers are crap, so your left with stock manifoilds, ported manifolds, or Kooks. I don't know the price of ported manifolds, and you so very kindly put out the prices for the Kooks. So until I can prove differently, or anyone else for that matter, say the MAC's aren't as good as the Kooks, and that they flow worse. Not likely, but possible. Regardless of that, there is no way you or anyone else on the planet will ever be able to convince me that longtube headers will flow worse than either stock or ported manifolds and thus give little to no gains performance wise. That said put the performance gains in order of worst to first:

stock manifolds- free
ported manifolds-?? 300-400 I'm thinking though
MAC LT's new and modified $700(high estimate on mods considering it's about 40 bucks worth of material and 4 hours tops with welding)
Kooks cheapest $770

I'll concede that the price of the MAC's will go up if you have them recoated making them possibly more expensive than the Kooks. But thats if you buy them new and have someone else do all the work. And if your that type of person, your not gonna go that road anyways, your just going to buy the Kooks. So leave that as the best option for the car fine. But for me, and I speak only for me, unless I found used Kooks for cheap, I dont spend my money foolishly enough to be able to buy a set of $800 headers. I'll take my chances with the 90% chance that my modified LT's will outflow the midlengths and I have $250 in them. And remember, my $250 includes new Percy's gaskets and new Stage 8 header bolts. And one other point you keep bringing up, is the 3v Mustang world. This thread is about the 2v 4.6 in a T-bird and therefore in no way correlates to anything 3v let alone Mustang.
I am not telling you what you are doing is wrong, in fact I think it is a great thing that somebody actually tried to do this. There was talk about this happening years ago. Kris Danner was going to try it except the Kooks came out and he tried those instead. You are giving other people another option. I think it will be a viable option. The only thing I am going to disagree with is that your headers will flow more than the Kooks. Your headers are 4 - 6 inches longer than the Kooks. Your headers have a 1 5/8 primary, the big kooks are 1 3/4 primaries, the big Kooks have a 3 inch unobstructed collector and you don't.

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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-20-2011, 01:34 AM
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All good points, and you might very well be correct. Sadly the way i see it, no one will probably ever know which is better. Until someone builds a car and installs Kooks, and then rebuilds the exhaust with the MAC's, that argument will be a running discussion open for debate. The only numbers I will be able to make comparisons based on will be my orginal build with the JBA shortys and the dyno numbers that setup produced, and my current rebuild with the MAC LT's and the SVO blower install. And given I have ventured into unknown territory not only in exhaust but also a high compression engine with a ported blower and bigger cams than anyone else I know of, it will all be up for debate. But only time will tell, and the numbers will speak for themselves, but rest assured, that day is coming, and coming fast.

Ban low performance driver's, not high performance cars.

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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-20-2011, 06:24 AM
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Didn't exist.

Another good point you've made, TGJ, about the ongoing argument. Also, those mid-lengths didn't even exist "back in the day". As a matter of fact, everyone was probably calling them long-tubes because that term didn't exist.

I'm just saying...

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-20-2011, 08:47 AM
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On a bone stock 4.6L TBird, I am willing to bet that adding Kooks to it will have little or no benfit to it. For the Kooks to show a benefit, there needs to be some substantial mods to the car.
Definitely. When I swapped my Kooks on last year (the big sett), I had some people telling me that I'd probably lose some low end power because they would be too much for an N/A car.

When comparing two of my passes at the track. One from August '09 before the install, one from August '10 after the Kooks and new exhaust...similar weather conditions. The difference in the passes was a 13.7 to a 13.1. No other changes. Of course this is a car with ported heads, I'm guessing that just needed to be un-corked on the exhaust side.

Also, looking in terms of power to the wheels. My dyno with the JBA's was at 247whp, and the tune after showed 283whp. I will say that the tuner that tuned it first most likely had no clue what he was doing, so I can't say for sure if that much of a gain was due to just the Kooks/exhaust.

The idea of people developing "new" products for these cars is great and helps expand the market no doubt. But with the Kooks being a direct bolt-in and a very well made product, they're worth it in my opinion. I was able to install them in about 2 hours too.

~Jeff

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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 04-20-2011, 01:46 PM
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Long-tubes are definitely going to be better for the street. The advantage long-tubes have is not in flow, but in scavenging. Properly sized and length long-tubes will create a negative pressure in the exhaust when the valve opens, effectively sucking the gases out of the cylinder. The longer the tubes are, the lower rpm this happens at, and unless you are turning 10K rpms on the street, it is never going to happen with either shorties or mid-lengths. The kooks flow way better than the JBAs or the stock manifolds, so obviously they will make more power, but they won't be able to match the long-tubes in terms of improving torque across the rpm band. Similarly, if you put a set of 1 3/4 long-tubes on a mostly stock 4.6, it would be slower than with the 1 5/8 because the 4.6 does not flow enough volume to create the scavenging effect in such a big tube. So basically when you look at the header comparison, the only thing that will give you an accurate comparison is the torque increase across the rpm band. That is what moves the car and makes it faster. Just because a mid-length header makes more peak hp doesn't mean it is going to be a faster car, and just because a mid-length flows better does not mean it is going to yield more hp and torque than a long-tube. KDanner's mustang is very impressive and the reason it is faster than many others is not because he has stock manifolds and they have longtubes, but rather because he knows what he is doing and where to spend the money first to get the best improvement. That is exactly why my Lincoln still has stock manifolds on it. If a set of headers cost almost $1000 and they aren't even longtubes, I can guarantee that my money would be better spent elsewhere, and when it comes time to do that, I'd rather do some work myself and have something that is optimized and costs half as much than to plunk down a bunch of money for a marginal improvement.

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