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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 02:56 AM Thread Starter
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Day Dreaming about 180 Degree Headers on my 5.0

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So I'm stuck in some work meetings in Israel this week and my mind is wandering a little bit in between arguing with my coworkers about our product roadmap.

I'm daydreaming about my tbirds roadmap -- specifically 180 degree headers.
How 180-Degree Headers Help a V8?s Low- and Midrange Torque - Hot Rod Network


Heres' my thinking of how the 180 degree headers would look/fit on the tbird and still remain removable.



180 Degree Headers on a 409 | 348-409.com Info Exchange Forum

My engine is pretty mild: 302 bored 20 over, GT40 heads, GT40 intake, e303 cam, stock injectors, slight tweak with timing at high end with QH tune.

My current exhaust consists of stock headers (wrapped b/c of heat soak concern), 2.5" catless downpipes into a Y pipe, and 3" single pipe all the way back (through a cherry bomb and Flowmaster 40 before turning 90 degrees and coming out my trunk Pagani Zonda style. THe exhaust is very modular and uses bolt together flanges. If I design it right, I can replace the manifolts and downpipes w/ the Y and retain the back half of my exhaust system as is.


We shift at 5500RPM.

Maybe an honest 250HP at best.



1) I don't really need more powah.
2) I don't really need to lower my car's ground clearance and I'll need to check this when i get home.



What I DO WANT is an interesting project for the next few months. I'm planning to do an arrive & drive in 2019 so I really do have 2 years to get my tbird together again.

And trying to find a way to getha that glorious bwwwaaaaaaaa sound is what I want.
My car already makes fritos, so I cannot damage it any further



Q: What is the optimal diameter for the primary tubes for my application?
How Header Primary-Tube Diameter Affects Performance - Hot Rod Network

- Looking at this chart, my ideal diameter for the primaries looks to be 1.5"
- However, looking at what tubing and header flanges are available, my options seem to be 1.625" or 1.75"

I suspect Josh @ Mandrel Exhaust Systems can cut me a deal on pipes as a repeat customer but I want to confirm what I should buy first.


Q: Also, if I start with a bunch of u-bends, do I want a 2" or 2.5" turn radius (seems to be more common)?

I'm guessing tighter if I can get them for the same price but any thoughts you guys might have would be interesting.

Q: Finally, do I need SS headers? I don't think so because a) this is not a daily driven car and I'll probably wrap the downpipes anyway. If the off-the-shelf Summit kits spec in aluminized steel, I should be good with that.

Q: Will this setup give me the exhaust sound I'm looking for? Since I'm planning a fairly long path from one bank to the other (through a crossover) and my exhaust already merges into one pipe after the downpipes (call it 3' farther down or maybe 1-2' after the collectors, will the pulses line up close enough to give me the flat plan crank/180degree/dual 4cyl sound?

Yeah, I know this is a long project. yeah, I so alknow it's pretty stupid. But what else do I have left to mess with on this tbird? I suppose I could fab in a giant fuel cell but that seems too practical a project

-g
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
All
So I'm stuck in some work meetings in Israel this week and my mind is wandering a little bit in between arguing with my coworkers about our product roadmap.

I'm daydreaming about my tbirds roadmap -- specifically 180 degree headers.
How 180-Degree Headers Help a V8?s Low- and Midrange Torque - Hot Rod Network


Heres' my thinking of how the 180 degree headers would look/fit on the tbird and still remain removable.



180 Degree Headers on a 409 | 348-409.com Info Exchange Forum

My engine is pretty mild: 302 bored 20 over, GT40 heads, GT40 intake, e303 cam, stock injectors, slight tweak with timing at high end with QH tune.

My current exhaust consists of stock headers (wrapped b/c of heat soak concern), 2.5" catless downpipes into a Y pipe, and 3" single pipe all the way back (through a cherry bomb and Flowmaster 40 before turning 90 degrees and coming out my trunk Pagani Zonda style. THe exhaust is very modular and uses bolt together flanges. If I design it right, I can replace the manifolts and downpipes w/ the Y and retain the back half of my exhaust system as is.


We shift at 5500RPM.

Maybe an honest 250HP at best.



1) I don't really need more powah.
2) I don't really need to lower my car's ground clearance and I'll need to check this when i get home.



What I DO WANT is an interesting project for the next few months. I'm planning to do an arrive & drive in 2019 so I really do have 2 years to get my tbird together again.

And trying to find a way to getha that glorious bwwwaaaaaaaa sound is what I want.
My car already makes fritos, so I cannot damage it any further



Q: What is the optimal diameter for the primary tubes for my application?
How Header Primary-Tube Diameter Affects Performance - Hot Rod Network

- Looking at this chart, my ideal diameter for the primaries looks to be 1.5"
- However, looking at what tubing and header flanges are available, my options seem to be 1.625" or 1.75"

I suspect Josh @ Mandrel Exhaust Systems can cut me a deal on pipes as a repeat customer but I want to confirm what I should buy first.


Q: Also, if I start with a bunch of u-bends, do I want a 2" or 2.5" turn radius (seems to be more common)?

I'm guessing tighter if I can get them for the same price but any thoughts you guys might have would be interesting.

Q: Finally, do I need SS headers? I don't think so because a) this is not a daily driven car and I'll probably wrap the downpipes anyway. If the off-the-shelf Summit kits spec in aluminized steel, I should be good with that.

Q: Will this setup give me the exhaust sound I'm looking for? Since I'm planning a fairly long path from one bank to the other (through a crossover) and my exhaust already merges into one pipe after the downpipes (call it 3' farther down or maybe 1-2' after the collectors, will the pulses line up close enough to give me the flat plan crank/180degree/dual 4cyl sound?

Yeah, I know this is a long project. yeah, I know it's pretty stupid. But what else do I have let to mess with the tbird? I suppose I could fab in a giant fuel cell but that seems too practical a fix

-g
Interesting....
I'm looking forward to seeing everyone's input.

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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 10:03 AM
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Interesting article. I did not know these were a thing.

My biggest concern, as you've already noted, is the heat. The oil pan is part of what cools the oil, and I don't feel good about running headers (even wrapped ones) so close to that. Maybe some more heat shielding could be put in place, but it seems like that would make the drain plug harder to get to.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 10:42 AM
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Interesting article. I did not know these were a thing.

My biggest concern, as you've already noted, is the heat. The oil pan is part of what cools the oil, and I don't feel good about running headers (even wrapped ones) so close to that. Maybe some more heat shielding could be put in place, but it seems like that would make the drain plug harder to get to.
I was thinking about that. A good heat shield with gold tape to reflect the heat back down along with wrapped pipes should help. You could also make a removable section to make the oil plug easier to get to since you're going to have to fab things up anyway.

My concern would be ground clearance. No getting around that if it runs under the pan, unless you were to somehow raise the engine, and that causes it's own issues.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 10:50 AM
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Yep that will surely make cooking motor oil !

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Woodman View Post
I was thinking about that. A good heat shield with gold tape to reflect the heat back

down along with wrapped pipes should help. You could also make a removable section to make the oil plug

easier to get to since you're going to have to fab things up anyway.

My concern would be ground clearance. No getting around that if it runs under the pan, unless you were to

somehow raise the engine, and that causes it's own issues.
Oh man what glorious sound


1) I can easily raise my engine. It's on hockey pucks after all and I already have my fabbed up cowl hood
1 or 2 more puck/inches (1 should definitely fit before the transmission hits the top of the tunnel.. two is iffy).

2) I need to ponder the routing after looking at my spare engine (it's sitting on a subframe).
- Two pipes need to go from the pass to driver and two pipes need to go the other way
- Titanium wrap isnt expensive at all and I have a roll left from wrapping my current exhaust manifolds.
- I suppose I could run two of the primaries around the front and two around the back (or four around the back) but that's probably going to mess with the pulses in a big way. After all, the primaries that cross over are going to be a LOT longer than the ones that just go to the collectors.
- I suppose if I was truly nutty I'd just run them under the subframe.... but considering the car is lowered a good deal already AND I've "clearanced" my subframe brackets by bottoming them out on the track AND they only stick out 1" below the subframe, I doubt there's going to be enough room to just stick the headers down there.


3) Alternative plan. What about routing the exhaust UP and over the engine? Or around the TOP of the transmission housing?

4) Or maybe make the 180 degree crossovers using these zoomies. Oh man, that'd be glorious. Clearly, I have no respect for my hoods.
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sch-3514


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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 02:21 PM
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 03:43 PM
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I can't speak to sound, as I have never heard a 302 with 180 degree headers that wasn't cammed to run at 8000rpm. What I can tell you is that you won't gain anything from a setup like that over a conventional set of long-tubes, and in fact, you might even lose some power to the regular longtubes. One of the main advantages of the longtubes is the scavenging, which comes from close to equal length primary tubes. As you can see in that picture, the primary tubes on that setup are nowhere close to being equal in length, and as you can see in the GT40, the primary tubes are still close to the same length. Also in order to fit a setup like that in the tbird, in addition to lifting the motor, I think you would need a tubular K-member.

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-24-2018, 05:21 PM
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It will be fucking loud for sure. The 5.0 sure wont sound like that C7 or the GT40 engines, but I get the sound you're looking for. This is the kind of thing you'll want to put your "engineering" degree to use for.

No power gains, you'll probably lose a bit of torque - might as well turn the pipes up and shoot them out the hood. LOL

x2 on the tubular X-member / different oil pan. I don't see how it would route any other way.

So you'll want to take a look at the firing order and see how that lines up in relation to the exhaust lengths from the primary to the collector to get that staggered pulses to line up ( you know like that Indy car sound, 12 cylinders .. staggered pipes in the firing order ... that's why they sound like that ) You can just throw some shit together, but there is a science to this sound.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 01:35 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dDUBb View Post
It will be fucking loud for sure. The 5.0 sure wont sound like that C7 or the GT40 engines, but I get the sound you're looking for. This is the kind of thing you'll want to put your "engineering" degree to use for.

No power gains, you'll probably lose a bit of torque - might as well turn the pipes up and shoot them out the hood. LOL

x2 on the tubular X-member / different oil pan. I don't see how it would route any other way.

So you'll want to take a look at the firing order and see how that lines up in relation to the exhaust lengths from the primary to the collector to get that staggered pulses to line up ( you know like that Indy car sound, 12 cylinders .. staggered pipes in the firing order ... that's why they sound like that ) You can just throw some shit together, but there is a science to this sound.
1) Losing a bit of torque doesn't bother me as much considering we can overwhelm the 17" tires if you slam on the throttle in 1-3 since we have the 3.73 gears.
2) I see the concern about routing the tubes taking too long compared to the others and "losing" the glorious sound. I suspect I'll need to do some measurements to see the difference in length.
Q: Has anyone calculated the exhaust velocity out of a 302? I know it's affected by primary diameter and engine RPMs

3) Tubular xmember. Hrm. That sounds expensive for sure. If anyone has an extra one laying around, LMK. I'm not sold i need it though.


4) As far as calculations go, here's what I've figured out so far (feel free to verify)
CYL Numbering
[REAR]
4 8
3 7
2 6
1 5
[FRONT]
HO Firing order: 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Engine fires every 90 degrees so to bunch pulses 180 degrees apart, I need to group every other pulse.
Therefore, pulses must be grouped #1: 1,7,6,4
Therefore, pulses must be grouped #2: 3,2,5,8

Pass Header: 1, 7+6 crossed over from driver side [longest primary], 4 [shortest distance primary to collector]
Driver Header: 3+2 crossed over from pass side [longest], 5, 8 [shortest primary]

Maybe I can make a bundle of snakes to offset the delta between the longest and shortest primaries.

Here's a thought: Look at the pulses -- the ones that cross over (and have the longest path to go before the collector) are right after each other. Therefore, they shouldn't catch up with each other and cause drama. Since there is another cyl firing between the longest primary (6) and the shortest primary (4), I suspect the chances of the pulses from the shortest primary "catching up" with the pulse coming down the longest primary.
I'm going to kill some clothes hangers taking some measurements but I wish I had access to SW for this header design shit.
-g

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 05:55 PM
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I'm just trying to point you in the right direction here .. you get the idea / concept. Too much math for me to invest time into something like this.

I thought there was plenty of room behind your dash - might be possible to section out some of the firewall for additional clearance if you're willing to move everything back. I was thinking about this at one time, except to move the engine back a bit.

You have a welder, the K-member is almost going to be the same type of work as what you want to do with headers - just build a JIG off the spare so you can mass produce them. I wouldn't trust those welds if youre still on flux core wire though.

I thought there was a member here who has the software you are looking for .. hmmmmm
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 07:05 PM
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I'm mainly commenting so that I can follow this as it's interesting.

On a note about sound, a high compression SBF does sound different than the normal setup. At some point soon I'll attempt to get some video/audio of my car with it's current setup.

One of the things that's extreme like this that I've always wondered about is a high compression engine with a twin turbo setup. I would think you would have to run E85 to avoid the risk of detonation but it seems like the higher compression would be awesome for the turbo spin.

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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I'm mainly commenting so that I can follow this as it's interesting.

On a note about sound, a high compression SBF does sound different than the normal setup. At some point soon I'll attempt to get some video/audio of my car with it's current setup.

One of the things that's extreme like this that I've always wondered about is a high compression engine with a twin turbo setup. I would think you would have to run E85 to avoid the risk of detonation but it seems like the higher compression would be awesome for the turbo spin.
1) Neither higher compression nor turbocharging within the budget I'm willing to spend for endurance racing.

1.5) Not much e85 in the Bay Area so racing with it is simply not viable unless I wanted to setup a bucket brigade to ferry the stuff from 1-2 hours away (aka not going to happen).

2) Yeah, I have a welder. I use gas now but my welds are still boogery; this might be the project to get me to actually practice enough to be better at it.

3) Maybe the front tubular subframe is something to consider first. I do have a second subframe I could build a Jig out of... hrm.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 08:46 PM
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1) Neither higher compression nor turbocharging within the budget I'm willing to spend for endurance racing.

1.5) Not much e85 in the Bay Area so racing with it is simply not viable unless I wanted to setup a bucket brigade to ferry the stuff from 1-2 hours away (aka not going to happen).

2) Yeah, I have a welder. I use gas now but my welds are still boogery; this might be the project to get me to actually practice enough to be better at it.

3) Maybe the front tubular subframe is something to consider first. I do have a second subframe I could build a Jig out of... hrm.
I agree with your points in general.

Regarding the subframe, the one that is made for the car seems like a good idea and isn't all that expensive until you have to buy the matching LCAs.

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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I'm just trying to point you in the right direction here .. you get the idea / concept. Too much math for me to invest time into something like this.

I thought there was plenty of room behind your dash - might be possible to section out some of the firewall for additional clearance if you're willing to move everything back. I was thinking about this at one time, except to move the engine back a bit.

You have a welder, the K-member is almost going to be the same type of work as what you want to do with headers - just build a JIG off the spare so you can mass produce them. I wouldn't trust those welds if youre still on flux core wire though.

I thought there was a member here who has the software you are looking for .. hmmmmm
1) I find it funny Dan that you'll think I'm going to break out much math for a project this silly. "This looks about right" is probably what I'll be going for than I need 5.2cm more on this primary
2) Cutting the firewall will be a big concern for the lemons judges -- while putting the "bundle of snakes" setup on and routing it rearwards might sound like a good idea, I'd sooner go up than back and down.

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 11:05 PM
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What I think is funny, that you'll go to such great lengths to research on the pre-tasks with these huge threads and long posts .. and then cobble some cheetos corn extruder. LOL

By math that's what I meant .. something that involves me trying to think about something for a few minutes is too much work. Yeah nothing too exotic, as long as you get the crossover pulses paired it might be close to what you might expect to hear, none of which I can say with any certainty ... now see that's to much work for me.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2018, 12:44 AM
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An easier thing would be a Very Loud stereo playing a v12 ferrari indy car, lol.


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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-26-2018, 04:46 PM
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An easier thing would be a Very Loud stereo playing a v12 ferrari indy car, lol.

Yeah you would need to program an RPM sound generator / volume control up to the "gas pedal" .. and maybe even add a little gurgle when you let off the gas that will work with the stereo that doesn't exist in this case.

Gunn can totally pull this off.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dDUBb View Post
What I think is funny, that you'll go to such great lengths to research on the pre-tasks with these huge threads and long posts .. and then cobble some cheetos corn extruder. LOL

By math that's what I meant .. something that involves me trying to think about something for a few minutes is too much work. Yeah nothing too exotic, as long as you get the crossover pulses paired it might be close to what you might expect to hear, none of which I can say with any certainty ... now see that's to much work for me.
You think my Cheetos maker was "cobbled together?" This isn't an M5R2 rebuild, buddy, in that there isn't exactly much in the way of documentation or experts I could consult on this project. Here some examples of how highly engineered that project was 🙂
1) I didn't even know what a vbelt was beyond something used in model Ts and ancient hotrods.
2) I had to fabricate my own drive wheel. I found something that was a 5V sized drive (same as the receiving pulley) and had to lathe it down to fit off of the water pump. I then had to Mill in the four mounting holes.
3) the mounting platform itself was also tricky. Where do you place a 18" pulley where it wont hit anything and will be adequately supported while also playing the giant pulley on the same plane as the drive pulley. It's held on at the back with the intake manifold bolt , at the front attached to where the ignition coil goes and finally in a bracket where the intake adapter goes to resist the rotational torque. Oh yeah, I thought of that shit too
4) there's no reference guide to how long a vbelt you need. Finding one the proper length was tricky but thankfully Corey at vbeltguys.com was supportive AND I could exploit paypals free return shipping policy (FYI it works and isn't too hard to make a claim).
5) hood modification (lightening, modding washers for the hood pins, and adding space for the extruder) was easy as I've done this 3 or 4 times now.
6) finally I had to work out the recipe. You can't exactly Google this shit (well, you probably can now).
Here's what I gleaned from the Chinese videos, industrial engineering textbooks online,
- You need corn meal. Flour is too fine
- the Chinese would sell you an 8HP 120/240v motor to drive this.
-my tbird allegedly makes 20hp at idle according to binary editor but that's very likely a guess
- you need some water content in the meal. The industrial texts say 6-10% in commercial production but I don't have a hydrometer handy and it's not a tool I could talk myself into buying (I have my limits).
The recipe:
- cornmeal plus spices (hit up a foodie friend for dried jalapeno, sea salt, and bourbon smoked black a pepper) plus water so it's the consistency of wet sand. This took several runs to work out
- 2500rpm. It's not likely about torque but about the speed of the extruder pulley. My first belt was too thin so it didn't transfer enough torque. If the belt was too loose, I was going to fab on a tensioner.
Cobbled together my ass.

As far as the suggestion about speakers is concerned, you guys wound me. What do you think I'm building here, a BMW or Porsche?
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ined-tech-dept

One thought is to buy some PVC tubes to mock angles and piping.

I just returned to the US so I'll probably mess with this car today as a way to fight off jetlag while my wife is at work and my kids at school

-g
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 01:34 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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An easier thing ...

I'm impressed; I just said EASIER, lol.

Hmmm, that extruder would work great for the rocket motor mix I'm working with.



Does anyone make a flatplane crank that fits?

That might make it a bit easier, with a more amenable firing order.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
You think my Cheetos maker was "cobbled together?" This isn't an M5R2 rebuild, buddy, in that there isn't exactly much in the way of documentation or experts I could consult on this project. Here some examples of how highly engineered that project was 🙂
1) I didn't even know what a vbelt was beyond something used in model Ts and ancient hotrods.
2) I had to fabricate my own drive wheel. I found something that was a 5V sized drive (same as the receiving pulley) and had to lathe it down to fit off of the water pump. I then had to Mill in the four mounting holes.
3) the mounting platform itself was also tricky. Where do you place a 18" pulley where it wont hit anything and will be adequately supported while also playing the giant pulley on the same plane as the drive pulley. It's held on at the back with the intake manifold bolt , at the front attached to where the ignition coil goes and finally in a bracket where the intake adapter goes to resist the rotational torque. Oh yeah, I thought of that shit too
4) there's no reference guide to how long a vbelt you need. Finding one the proper length was tricky but thankfully Corey at vbeltguys.com was supportive AND I could exploit paypals free return shipping policy (FYI it works and isn't too hard to make a claim).
5) hood modification (lightening, modding washers for the hood pins, and adding space for the extruder) was easy as I've done this 3 or 4 times now.
6) finally I had to work out the recipe. You can't exactly Google this shit (well, you probably can now).
Here's what I gleaned from the Chinese videos, industrial engineering textbooks online,
- You need corn meal. Flour is too fine
- the Chinese would sell you an 8HP 120/240v motor to drive this.
-my tbird allegedly makes 20hp at idle according to binary editor but that's very likely a guess
- you need some water content in the meal. The industrial texts say 6-10% in commercial production but I don't have a hydrometer handy and it's not a tool I could talk myself into buying (I have my limits).
The recipe:
- cornmeal plus spices (hit up a foodie friend for dried jalapeno, sea salt, and bourbon smoked black a pepper) plus water so it's the consistency of wet sand. This took several runs to work out
- 2500rpm. It's not likely about torque but about the speed of the extruder pulley. My first belt was too thin so it didn't transfer enough torque. If the belt was too loose, I was going to fab on a tensioner.
Cobbled together my ass.

As far as the suggestion about speakers is concerned, you guys wound me. What do you think I'm building here, a BMW or Porsche?
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ined-tech-dept

One thought is to buy some PVC tubes to mock angles and piping.

I just returned to the US so I'll probably mess with this car today as a way to fight off jetlag while my wife is at work and my kids at school

-g

That was great, I applaud your very in depth and organized response. You should get some sleep, I need to take a nap after all that reading.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-28-2018, 11:09 AM
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Screw that and build one of those hill climbers. Ohh wait, they are probably illegal in California.

1992 Tbird LX 5.0, 3.73 gears, 1995 Cobra intake, deleted air silencer, 2.5" mandrel bent dual exhaust, SCP shorty headers. Updated four-hole fuel injectors. SK shift kit in AOD. Vogtland 0.9" springs, Tokico and Bilstein shocks.
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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-29-2018, 12:17 PM
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Screw that and build one of those hill climbers. Ohh wait, they are probably illegal in California.
Yeah Gunn, stop fucking up the environment !!
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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-29-2018, 05:10 PM
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I can visualize straight up out of the hood and to the back outside the car but I don't know what you would gain and it would look funny and all the hot metal where it can be touched would kill the idea for me.

There's porting you can try without much expense. Not much gain either.

You shift at 5500rpm, are there better springs and rollers to increase rpm any?

Your last race report included engine damage so maybe you have enough to work on now.

1992 Tbird LX 5.0, 3.73 gears, 1995 Cobra intake, deleted air silencer, 2.5" mandrel bent dual exhaust, SCP shorty headers. Updated four-hole fuel injectors. SK shift kit in AOD. Vogtland 0.9" springs, Tokico and Bilstein shocks.
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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 12:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gordonm1 View Post
I can visualize straight up out of the hood and to the back outside the car but I don't know what you would gain and it would look funny and all the hot metal where it can be touched would kill the idea for me.

There's porting you can try without much expense. Not much gain either.

You shift at 5500rpm, are there better springs and rollers to increase rpm any?

Your last race report included engine damage so maybe you have enough to work on now.
1) The Sound. That glorious sound. hood exit exhaust has been done before in lemons and it's no big
deal. The only downside would be the potential impact to visibility (kind of like that corn extruder)

2) I shift at 5500RPM for engine longetivity. The springs are upgraded. The rollers will be upgraded (see below).

3) The bottom end is still good. Compression was good but I'm going to do effectively a HG job to do the following:
- Replace the used pushrods I dropped in (two of them are smaller diameter than the sealed power ones). Confirm if any are worn/bent and replace
- Replace all the hydraulic rollers with higher performance ones & throw out the one that had a bent pushrod. This necessitates pulling the front accessories off and taking off the heads.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6500-R302H
- check my heads and the SS valves while I have them off my car.
- This is all really no big deal as I've done this plenty of times already. I can take my time with this job.

4) I already fiberglassed in some brake ducting after getting home Friday morning since a) my kid was in preschool, b) my wife was working, and c) I needed to do something or succumb to jetlag.
Now, I just need to fabricate the duct mounting on the brake spindle side and I'll be done with that project.


/.

5) Since both projects above are pretty straightforward, THIS is why I'm looking for something stupid.

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 02:17 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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That looks good.

Any additional cooling will help.

You know, going across the top is lower than the extruder; but I don't think the pipes will come out the top, between the heads and shock towers.

But; I've heard that peeps that put the turbos on these cars turn the manifolds around; and do the plumbing in front.

Why not do that, mix and match all your pipes, and put the collectors where they end up.

Then there's only two pipes to run to the back.

Or you could redirect them out the hood to Cook the fritos, lol.


I realize AFTER I type all this, I'm thinking 4.6; IDK whether that works for a 5.0 or not.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
That looks good.

Any additional cooling will help.

You know, going across the top is lower than the extruder; but I don't think the pipes will come out the top, between the heads and shock towers.

But; I've heard that peeps that put the turbos on these cars turn the manifolds around; and do the plumbing in front.

Why not do that, mix and match all your pipes, and put the collectors where they end up.

Then there's only two pipes to run to the back.

Or you could redirect them out the hood to Cook the fritos, lol.


I realize AFTER I type all this, I'm thinking 4.6; IDK whether that works for a 5.0 or not.
Or just skip rear exit exhaust entirely and have them exit up front?

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2003 Explorer WAP block with Modular Head Shop "street ported" heads and Stage 2 PI NA cams, 75mm Accufab throttle body, C&L upper intake plenum, Kooks 1.75" primary/3" collector headers, 2.5" full exhaust with mid mount Magnaflow dual in/out muffler, 24lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, Tuning from Don @ www.lasotaracing.com, CAI that feeds from fenderwell. Jmod, 3.73:1 TL in Mark VIII carrier, Mark VIII aluminum LCAs, 93 Mark VIII driveshaft, PBR brakes (soon to be Cobras), 18x9 wheels with 35mm offset, 255/40/ZR18 Tires, Front and Rear strut/shock bracing, GR-2 shocks, Eibach 1.5" springs, 1989 SC front and rear sway bars.
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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gordonm1 View Post
Screw that and build one of those hill climbers. Ohh wait, they are probably illegal in California.
A hillclimb car would be interesting but
a) why would i buy something I couldn't use anywhere within 3-4 hours of SF?
b) where would i put it? I have a one car garage in SF


As far as adapting, funny enough I did look at this during a slow day at work.
While it would be an interesting way to spend lottery money, buying a GT350 donor is more than likely the cheaper option:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-Ford-M...-/152501061140

To make my 302 a flat plane engine,
1) I need the flat plane crank & matching custom camshaft. Swapping the crank & the firing order on the distributor isn't going to cut it. "Steve's Crazy Garage" will allegedly sell you the crate engine for $26K but honestly, i think your money will be safer with John Hennessey (which isn't saying much). After all, these guys are promising a 22 week leadtime AND had a failed kickstarter (which makes me suspicious that the first buyer will essentially fund their R&D program... maybe).
https://steviescrazygarage.com/Shop/...duct&id_lang=1

For that kind of money, you'd probably better off buying from a more established engine mfg like Nelson Racing Engine's TT SBF setup
Nelson Racing Engines - Twin Turbo Daily Driver

or a Rousch Yates Nascar castoff
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NASCAR-358-...-/282397239532

2) Even if someone gave me a SBF flat plane crank and camshaft, I would still need to move to an internally balanced engine setup. This means new flywheel and new balancer.


I light of these two options, the idea of fabbing 180 degree headers seems a far easier way to get THAT GLORIOUS SOUND.
-g

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
That looks good.

Any additional cooling will help.

You know, going across the top is lower than the extruder; but I don't think the pipes will come out the top, between the heads and shock towers.

But; I've heard that peeps that put the turbos on these cars turn the manifolds around; and do the plumbing in front.

Why not do that, mix and match all your pipes, and put the collectors where they end up.

Then there's only two pipes to run to thean back.

Or you could redirect them out the hood to Cook the fritos, lol.


I realize AFTER I type all this, I'm thinking 4.6; IDK whether that works for a 5.0 or not.
Backwards exhaust manifolds is the way people adapt SBFs into BMW E30s. Exhaust goes forward down and then back. I suppose I could do the same with the 5.0 but I suspect that if I routed the 4 crossover primaries in front of the engine their lengths might be a good deal longer to the collector than the "same size" primaries.

I'll play with this more after I finish the brake duct project (maybe do the PVC pipe thing).


---
Fun fact: the fritos get cooked by being poooped out of the small hole in the extruder. The pressure of the screw inside the extruder pushes the corn meal out the hole and it cooks as it gets pooped out. No additional heat is needed.

As far as just dumping out right at the engine, lemons rules require exhaust to exit aft of the driver's seat (above or below the vehicle doesn't matter). You cant just put the dump pipe in the bumper like a 90s FWD Honda Drag Car

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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-30-2018, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
A hillclimb car would be interesting but
a) why would i buy something I couldn't use anywhere within 3-4 hours of SF?
b) where would i put it? I have a one car garage in SF


As far as adapting, funny enough I did look at this during a slow day at work.
While it would be an interesting way to spend lottery money, buying a GT350 donor is more than likely the cheaper option:

a) Hollister is within 2 hours of your location.
b) Get rid of the Tbird. LOL


At that rate you might as well buy a Chevy engine to drop in for that "glorious" sound.
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