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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2006, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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4.6l longtubes

Has anyone used or modified a set of 2v mustang long tubes for the mn12 cars. What needs to be done to get this to work?
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2006, 06:08 PM
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I think you'd be better off getting a set of kooks mid-lengths and extending them. Probably would be less work since you would already be past the steering shaft where you start modifying them. That's what I plan on doing for my DOHC swap.

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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-04-2006, 06:38 PM
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or kooks could have made them long tubes in the first place......

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-10-2006, 09:37 PM
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What is wrong with the 1&3/4" Primaries, 3" Collector KOOKS headers? From my understanding you won't gain anything with LTs over them.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-10-2006, 09:52 PM Thread Starter
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I was trying to get away from having to drop 700$ for the set. Mustang headers are much more reasonable. But they are the ones i will probable go with
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-10-2006, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teal944.6
I was trying to get away from having to drop 700$ for the set. Mustang headers are much more reasonable. But they are the ones i will probable go with

you wont be able to run the stang longtubes, you wont have the ground clearance, they will hit the starter, wont clear the steeringg shaft and you will have to find a way to route theeee EGR, since its on the opposite side as the mustang.




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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-10-2006, 10:04 PM
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Simple solution....delete the EGR.

4R70W From DirtyDog
VORTECH BLOWN w/3.12" Reichard ultra-grip pulley
TEA Stage2 PI Heads, 9.5:1 manley slugs/manley H-beams, cobra crank, VTStage3 blower cams, Trick Flow track heat intake, FMIC TR1245 intercooler, ART Dual 2.5" exhaust/Stainless/no cats, KOOKS coated headers, 4.10 w/ Auburn Pro, aluminum 8.8 housing, Dynotech driveshaft, Koni's, Eibach Springs, Baer 13" big brake kit. cobra rear brake/hub conversion, VMP Slot Blowthru setup, #60 Inj. 75mm TB,
615 rwhp/500 torque 15.5psi best of [email protected] still needs tuning.
CarDomain http://www.cardomain.com/ride/426794
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-10-2006, 10:06 PM
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and deleting it will do what for you?




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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-10-2006, 10:08 PM
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you wont need to fiddle with fabbing a EGR tube for a custom mustang long tubes install. And you save a few pounds.

4R70W From DirtyDog
VORTECH BLOWN w/3.12" Reichard ultra-grip pulley
TEA Stage2 PI Heads, 9.5:1 manley slugs/manley H-beams, cobra crank, VTStage3 blower cams, Trick Flow track heat intake, FMIC TR1245 intercooler, ART Dual 2.5" exhaust/Stainless/no cats, KOOKS coated headers, 4.10 w/ Auburn Pro, aluminum 8.8 housing, Dynotech driveshaft, Koni's, Eibach Springs, Baer 13" big brake kit. cobra rear brake/hub conversion, VMP Slot Blowthru setup, #60 Inj. 75mm TB,
615 rwhp/500 torque 15.5psi best of [email protected] still needs tuning.
CarDomain http://www.cardomain.com/ride/426794
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-11-2006, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGJ
What is wrong with the 1&3/4" Primaries, 3" Collector KOOKS headers? From my understanding you won't gain anything with LTs over them.

This is where you are wrong. The mid-length headers will flow well, however the concept behind long-tube headers is that the way the hot gases are being sent out, they actually create a vacuum in one primary tube when the valve opens. The longer the primary tubes, the lower the rpm this occurs at. The mid-length headers will not have this effect until such ridiculously high rpms that no street engine, and few race engines will ever see that high. And no matter how well something flows, it will never be as good as evacuating the exhaust as a tube that has a vacuum pulled on it. Mid-length and shorty style headers are popular for one reason and only one reason, they are easier to install. You will never get the same gains with mid-lengths as you will with equal length long-tubes. The question is whether the performance gain that you will get is worth the extra cost involved in fitting them into the car.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-11-2006, 11:40 AM
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But you need backpressure dammit, 4.6s need backpressure!!!!!!!!!!

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-11-2006, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner383
But you need backpressure dammit, 4.6s need backpressure!!!!!!!!!!
Lies! No motor ever made will benefit from backpressure in the exhaust. The only time opening up the exhaust will hurt you is if you have a turbo, and even then, it will only hurt if you open it up before the turbo and open it larger than the turbo inlet diameter.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-11-2006, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
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This is where you are wrong. The mid-length headers will flow well, however the concept behind long-tube headers is that the way the hot gases are being sent out, they actually create a vacuum in one primary tube when the valve opens. The longer the primary tubes, the lower the rpm this occurs at. The mid-length headers will not have this effect until such ridiculously high rpms that no street engine, and few race engines will ever see that high. And no matter how well something flows, it will never be as good as evacuating the exhaust as a tube that has a vacuum pulled on it. Mid-length and shorty style headers are popular for one reason and only one reason, they are easier to install. You will never get the same gains with mid-lengths as you will with equal length long-tubes. The question is whether the performance gain that you will get is worth the extra cost involved in fitting them into the car

This is generally why long tubes make more power. I think what i'll do is bite the bullet and get the 1 3/4 to 3" collector and have extensions made to have true long tubes.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-12-2006, 11:17 AM
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That's what I plan on doing.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-13-2006, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
Lies! No motor ever made will benefit from backpressure in the exhaust. The only time opening up the exhaust will hurt you is if you have a turbo, and even then, it will only hurt if you open it up before the turbo and open it larger than the turbo inlet diameter.

Mike
That was just a bit of sarcasm on my part. I have read that argument about "the engine needs backpressure" way too many times here. There were a few folks that would always try to convince me I didnt understand that you need backpressure for torque. Thats why I used 2.5 inch true duals on a stock engine. I overbuilt the exhaust for future mods, but the car didnt make it. I know that all it does is restrict your flow, people seem to forget that you need exhaust velocity as well as good flow.

"Piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-20-2007, 07:05 PM
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what performance gains are expected from stock manifolds to the 3/4s headers? how about if i have an SC....

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-20-2007, 07:18 PM
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you need exhaust velocity to scavenge the chambers not backpressure. When you go to big of pipe and you lose performance its not because of backpressure its because of the loss of velocity. Gases travel faster down a smaller pipe just as when you pinch a garden hose the water flows faster which helps pull the spent charge from the ports

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-20-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo 281 View Post
you need exhaust velocity to scavenge the chambers not backpressure. When you go to big of pipe and you lose performance its not because of backpressure its because of the loss of velocity. Gases travel faster down a smaller pipe just as when you pinch a garden hose the water flows faster which helps pull the spent charge from the ports

which is why there's a balance to be struck, and why bigger is not neccesarily better. And also another reason ceramic coating is helpful.

math > pasta
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-20-2007, 08:10 PM
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yep because unlike water thou the hotter the gases the faster they travel

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 11:59 PM
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One question i have though, how much will it hurt the performance to get 2 1/2" on a completely stock engine? I plan on adding mods in the next year, but right now it is stock.

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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-15-2007, 01:24 AM
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It won't hurt at all. You need to be pretty darn wild (much farther than N/A) to be needing more than 2.5" piping.

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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-15-2007, 02:00 AM
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I wasn't planning on going bigger than 2.5" I just didn't want to use 2.25" and then later have to redo it with 2.5" pipes when i do a tune, exploder motor and so on. Just curious if anyone noticed any negative affects using 2.5" on a stock motor compared to 2.25".

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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-15-2007, 02:12 AM
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You might lose a little bit of lower-end torque due to less exhaust scavenging with the stock motor, but upgrading later would probably eliminate that. 2.25" is plenty for a stock motor with minor mods. In fact, as long as the factory exhaust manifolds are on there, it's a waste to go bigger than 2.25". Put some headers and better heads, cam, intake, then you'll reap the benefits of the upgraded exhaust. But if you are planning on doing bigger stuff later, going with 2.5" won't be a bad idea.

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