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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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just a thought.. on supercharged v6's

im no engine specialist or anything... nor do i own a supercharged t bird. but since the engine is built to run with a supercharger couldnt you go ahead and remove the factory SC, drop a nice 16G turbo + intercooler in there and add massive HP without having to mod the engine to keep it from dying?

from all the reading ive done a 6cylinder turbo is the most capable engine known, very few motors can compete with these.
like the buick GN or the gmc syclone's, typhoons.

im just curious why more people havent considered this. give me your thoughts.

just for haha's a video of 2 stock buick GN's woopin a Viper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEoMx67-g5U
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 04:31 PM
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im no engine specialist or anything... nor do i own a supercharged t bird. but since the engine is built to run with a supercharger couldnt you go ahead and remove the factory SC, drop a nice 16G turbo + intercooler in there and add massive HP without having to mod the engine to keep it from dying?

from all the reading ive done a 6cylinder turbo is the most capable engine known, very few motors can compete with these.
like the buick GN or the gmc syclone's, typhoons.

im just curious why more people havent considered this. give me your thoughts.

just for haha's a video of 2 stock buick GN's woopin a Viper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEoMx67-g5U

I wouldnt say that a 6cylinder turbo is the most capable engine known. i have had people tell me you can get more HP out of a toyota supra engine than you can any big block and thats total bull **** that's my .02

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 04:58 PM
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theres near 1000 rwhp tt 4.6 2V's out there, i wouldnt ever say a V6 pushrod is better for a turbo car.

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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 05:16 PM
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there is a guy with a turbo supercoupe somewhere,i dont know what it ever ran (1/4) or made powerwise but theres a video of it out there

theres also that guy with the supra-coupe.

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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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funny thing is, the only reason i said the most capable engine known is because ive seen numerous supra/skyline/grandnational/syclone builds go over 1000HP.

toyota supra's "6cyl turbo" easily build to 1K hp
i havent done a ton of reading on how much an 8cylinder eneinge is capable of


This is an upgraded 1991 syclone vs 2003 mustang cobra. the factory 1/4th for the gmc mile is 13.4 you may have to watch this video a few times to see that the mustang actually leaves the same time. heres the factory quarter mile for a 1995 Lamborghini Diablo VT 4.7 0-60 13.2 1/4th

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6s3ng9i1Bg

Heres a video of an obviously upgraded toyota supra going against a dodge viper and a lambo mircealego FYI the supra is the car filming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lASMbhdcZQE


and finally 1000 plus HP grand national video, Cut the volume down so the turbos dont hurt your ears!!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lzqI7wvZvU

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:27 PM
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yea and theres a few hand fulls 1000+ 03 cobras out there with twins, i love how they all race stock cars in those videos btw


btw there is a rule against posting street racing videos here.

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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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the video in my first post is 2 stock grand national's passing a viper. i was on youtube for a few minutes just looking i wasnt trying to match everything as close as possible. but the fact is these engines put out 250hp (gn) made in 1987 and still pass 2006 corvettes how much proof do you need? (they dont usually beat Z06's)

they must have done somthing right.

they also just used a 6 cylinder turbo in the new 09 nissan skyline GTR

480hp, 430tq 0-60 3.3 seconds 1/4th mile in 11.6 seconds. an Enzo Ferrari does 0-60 in 3.07 seconds

thats what i call applying modern technology to a good idea!

most ferrari's dont compete with this thing. oh yeah and its only 80K dollars. cheap for the super car industry.

later on today if you wanna see i'll gladly pm you videos of factory cars as i find them...

until then if you can find me a video of a stock v8 beating one of them i encourage you to send it.

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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 09:52 AM
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actually even the 4.6 has been passed 1800+hp with twins at 283ci

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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 10:12 AM
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While a 6-cylinder can be made to produce ridiculous power numbers, the fact is there is no replacement for displacement. The highest horsepower engines in any cars are heavily boosted big cubic inch big blocks. Also, while a 1000hp supra is very do-able, it is by no means simple! Those motors putting down that much power have been gone through from top to bottom, had every component replaced, they have custom ported heads, custom cams, hybrid blowers, built drivetrains to handle the power. etc. Building any car to have 1000hp is no easy task at all!

As for all the examples you are coming up with, yes they are fast cars, or were for their day, but you are comparing boosted V6s to NA V8s. Most people don't need 500hp in the car they are going to drive every day, so a factory boosted V8 isn't very common. However when they do come along, they are sick engines. You mention the new GTR with 480hp, what about the new supercharged vette engine with over 600hp from the factory? How about the ford GT with 500hp and 500lb-ft of torque? Also, comparing against ferarris and lambos isn't fair because they aren't built for the same thing. The gearing is different, the weight is different, the handling is different, and the top speed is way different. Maybe a 10-year old lambo won't walk a GTR from a stand-still, but watch what happens after 150mph. That's where the lambo shines because that is what it was built for, not drag racing. Oh, and also, I don't know where you are getting your sources, but a 1987GN won't stand a chance against a stock 06 vette. The GN is a great car, and was incredible for its time, but a vette-killer today it certainly is not.

All this is beside the point though, because cars with that much power for the most part really aren't usable anymore, especially if they are turbo'd. High horsepower turbo cars generally have to run very large turbos to get enough air moving through the engine to make that much power. Large turbos give you turbo lag. On the street, turbo lag is really annoying. On the street, it is much better to have either a small turbo that will spool quickly so you don't notice any lag, or to have a positive displacement blower, which will produce almost all of its boost from just off idle. That is what makes the SC birds so much fun to drive, even over cars that have a higher power rating. Power is all about how much air you can flow through the engine. Superchargers and turbos both try to increase that amount by pressurizing the top side of the engine, so many times the limiting factor will be the turbo/blower, not the engine. That doesn't mean that the larger engine isn't capable of more though because for the same amount of air going through the blower, the larger engine will be at a lower boost level and a lower rpm. That means it can take more of it before it grenades. It also means the car will be a lot more fun to drive because you won't have to wind out every gear to get into your power-band.

I think you should drive some more cars before you decide you want to turbo an SC. Specifically you should drive some stock 5-speed SCs, and a few mildly modified ones. I bet those cars will scare you. Afterwards, go find someone with a stock turbo supra and go for a ride in that. I promise it won't be anywhere near as responsive or fun on the street. For regular driving, torque is king, and if you want torque, you want a positive displacement blower, not a turbo.

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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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your right, an 05 corvette does a 1/4th mile in 11.5 , so it has the gn by about a second.

these cars arent really built for top end speed. like the video of the viper if they kept on going it would pull right by them at 100mph and not be seen again.
the 6cylinder turbos just put out ridiculous torque at really low rpms. i think they put out the most torque 350ftlbs @ 2200rpm which is really low, where as a v8 would get most torque around 5 or 6k rpm so when its in its final gear cruising it would do better

im not saying these are the best cars in the world and they are outpreformed by a 50 thousand dollar muscle car. but you put one at a stop light next to any mustang with big mufflers and it will take it.

your response is so large i dont know here to start. i think we've done enough motor comparing to last a while, so back to these SC's

couldnt your just drop a turbo in with out having to prep the engine? like build it to handle the turbo. it is a v8 sized engine compartment so you would have room for it.
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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 12:15 PM
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Yes you could turbo it, and the bottom end would be up to the task. A few people have done just that. Part of the problem though is that there is absolutely no aftermarket for turbos in tbirds, so you are looking at custom fabricating the entire system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it isn't as simple as you think. If you want verification on that, ask sir william or twin turbo 281. Both of them have installed turbos on their cars, and I'm sure they will tell you that it wasn't as simple as just welding on a couple turbos and going. Basically it all comes down to getting the most power you can for the amount of money you have, and with the 3.8SC motor, it isn't difficult at all to get almost 400hp to the wheels with the MPX blower and some supporting mods, and that is a direct bolt-on swap with NO FABRICATION NEEDED! If you want a fast SC for as cheap as possible, that is the way to do it. If you want to boost your current car, the AED kit or the SVO blower are both bolt-on kits for the 4.6 that use a positive displacement blower, and will be capable of almost 400hp before the blower runs out of breath. If you are going to the extent of converting to a different motor entirely, you might as well drop a stroker SBF in there and have the potential for much more power. Basically what I'm saying is that it seems like you are trying to make extra work for yourself converting to a turbo, and by the time you are done, you would have probably been able to get a more powerful, torquier, much more enjoyable car for less money by working with what you have instead of trying to re-vamp the entire setup.

Oh, and as for what you said about turbo-6s having the most torque, that isn't accurate. You are comparing a boosted V6 to an NA V8, and you aren't comparing either one to the same motor with a positive displacement blower. If torque is what you are really after, go get yourself a whipple. Or better yet, an old buick 455 big block. They were putting out over 500ft-lbs off the showroom floor, out of a NA V8. Of course they ran out of breath by 4K rpms, so they weren't too fast on the track, but man are they a lot of fun on the street!

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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 12:23 PM
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your right, an 05 corvette does a 1/4th mile in 11.5 , so it has the gn by about a second.
I just noticed this...what makes you think a stock GN ran a 12.5 in 1987? They were mid to low 14sec cars. Even the top of the line limited production GNX would only do a 13.5. While that is a very impressive number for a stock large car in 1987, they are by no means capable of beating up on newer muscle cars. You could go buy yourself a bone stock 98-02 Z28 camaro and go beating up on stock GNs if you wanted.

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 12:36 PM
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funny thing is, the only reason i said the most capable engine known is because ive seen numerous supra/skyline/grandnational/syclone builds go over 1000HP.

toyota supra's "6cyl turbo" easily build to 1K hp
i havent done a ton of reading on how much an 8cylinder eneinge is capable of


This is an upgraded 1991 syclone vs 2003 mustang cobra. the factory 1/4th for the gmc mile is 13.4 you may have to watch this video a few times to see that the mustang actually leaves the same time. heres the factory quarter mile for a 1995 Lamborghini Diablo VT 4.7 0-60 13.2 1/4th

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6s3ng9i1Bg

Heres a video of an obviously upgraded toyota supra going against a dodge viper and a lambo mircealego FYI the supra is the car filming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lASMbhdcZQE


and finally 1000 plus HP grand national video, Cut the volume down so the turbos dont hurt your ears!!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lzqI7wvZvU

Like was said above supra's and skylines are not easly built to have 1000HP, Its expensive and hard work just like any car. The most i have ever read a Supra ever having to the wheels was like 1600 HP thats a hole lot but still dont compare to some V8's just look at top fuel dragsters thay have 8 grand HP+ Lets see if a supra could do that!!! These cars (4.6L) can be brought up to about 1000 or so i have heard from people never seen it. Just hard work and expensive but its the same for any inline 6. all you have to do is type in 2000HP or 2500 HP into youtube and its going to be nothing but v8's your not going to see to many if any inline 6 in that range the most you will see is about 1500 HP

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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 02:32 PM
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I just noticed this...what makes you think a stock GN ran a 12.5 in 1987? They were mid to low 14sec cars. Even the top of the line limited production GNX would only do a 13.5. While that is a very impressive number for a stock large car in 1987, they are by no means capable of beating up on newer muscle cars. You could go buy yourself a bone stock 98-02 Z28 camaro and go beating up on stock GNs if you wanted.
thank you!!!! its amazing how much hype a car can get from people who have only watched youtube and never even driven one.

oh, and look, V8 cars beating the "epic" grand national on a track






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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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i didnt know the exact 1/4th time just guessing hence me saying "about"
the SS has more horsepower than regular camaro's
1998 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS 5.2 13.6 320HP @ 5200RPM 335lb ft tourque @ 4000RPM

1987 Buick Regal GNX 4.7 13.5 355lb ft torque @2200RPM

(quote)
Horsepower peaked in the GNX, an option package on the Grand National, at 276 but it was well known among enthusiasts that actual numbers were closer to 300HP

i didnt find the specs of newer camaros but their kinda the same right?

ohh yeah i'll add this in just for fun.

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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heres some mustang numbers
it only took ford 14 years to come up with matching numbers. not bad
2001 Ford Mustang Cobra SVT 4.8 13.5


this one runs right on par with the gmc syclone

2007 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Convertible 4.5 12.9

wish some of you wouldnt get so defensive mustangs are cool cars too


nice videos!!
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 03:14 PM
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i'm not getting defensive i really dont like mustangs after 93(minus cobra's) plus i actually like the grand nationals. i'm just trying to knock down the hype that the grand national is some magical car. yes they are quick stock and they are quick modified, does that make them better? no, because the same can be said about any other performance car built in the past 20 years. the big thing that gives the stock GN's the upper hand is the gearing and automatic, lots of those youtube losses in the vipers, vettes ect were driver error.

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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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totally correct! people buy these awsome cars and dont drive them properly ( dont get me wrong im no pro) .
but the GN is extremely easy to drive. just spool up your turbo before launch and take off. people love them because they are already fast before mods. so it doesnt take a whole transformation to turn them into somthing extremely fast i personally would rather have a syclone they have the AWD which makes fast launches that much better.
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 06:12 PM
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im no engine specialist or anything... nor do i own a supercharged t bird. but since the engine is built to run with a supercharger couldnt you go ahead and remove the factory SC, drop a nice 16G turbo + intercooler in there and add massive HP without having to mod the engine to keep it from dying?

from all the reading ive done a 6cylinder turbo is the most capable engine known, very few motors can compete with these.
like the buick GN or the gmc syclone's, typhoons.

im just curious why more people havent considered this. give me your thoughts.

just for haha's a video of 2 stock buick GN's woopin a Viper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEoMx67-g5U
What the hell is this thread supposed to be about? Why mention a mitsubishi turbocharger? What makes you think you could do this to an SC without hurting the engine?

As for your mighty GNs and Sy/Tys, my Lightning ran faster, bone stock it ran 13.50. Then with nothing but a tune it ran 13.05, still on stock tires. And that is at 4800lbs. See sig for what it ran with the boost turned up. Even then it still towed the car to the track, and got 18mpg highway. Your mighty V6 is not impressing me.

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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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wow Kdanner, A slap in the face with a stick would be softer than your response!



stock!! syclone vs. modded lightning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iILmeORbV4


put that in your pipe and smoke it.
ive been smoking all kindsa **** tonight. ejony the video bud


edit: as long as its drag racing its okay right?

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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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ohh yeah just to clear things up. i was "assuming" since these engine were already supercharged you could just remove the factory supercharger and hook up a nice turbo without prepping the engine to maintain this. "assuming" it was already built to handle forced induction. no one has answerd my question on this yet. so your opinion would be very helpful.


oh yeah the gmc slyclone is not the fastet prodution truck ever made the jeep grand cherokee with the STR8 will beat it

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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Yes you could turbo it, and the bottom end would be up to the task. A few people have done just that. Part of the problem though is that there is absolutely no aftermarket for turbos in tbirds, so you are looking at custom fabricating the entire system. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it isn't as simple as you think. If you want verification on that, ask sir william or twin turbo 281. Both of them have installed turbos on their cars, and I'm sure they will tell you that it wasn't as simple as just welding on a couple turbos and going. Basically it all comes down to getting the most power you can for the amount of money you have, and with the 3.8SC motor, it isn't difficult at all to get almost 400hp to the wheels with the MPX blower and some supporting mods, and that is a direct bolt-on swap with NO FABRICATION NEEDED! If you want a fast SC for as cheap as possible, that is the way to do it. If you want to boost your current car, the AED kit or the SVO blower are both bolt-on kits for the 4.6 that use a positive displacement blower, and will be capable of almost 400hp before the blower runs out of breath. If you are going to the extent of converting to a different motor entirely, you might as well drop a stroker SBF in there and have the potential for much more power. Basically what I'm saying is that it seems like you are trying to make extra work for yourself converting to a turbo, and by the time you are done, you would have probably been able to get a more powerful, torquier, much more enjoyable car for less money by working with what you have instead of trying to re-vamp the entire setup.

Oh, and as for what you said about turbo-6s having the most torque, that isn't accurate. You are comparing a boosted V6 to an NA V8, and you aren't comparing either one to the same motor with a positive displacement blower. If torque is what you are really after, go get yourself a whipple. Or better yet, an old buick 455 big block. They were putting out over 500ft-lbs off the showroom floor, out of a NA V8. Of course they ran out of breath by 4K rpms, so they weren't too fast on the track, but man are they a lot of fun on the street!



awesome and informative post!!! i cant believe i overlooked this without noticing!

Thanks dude.
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 09:26 PM
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wow Kdanner, A slap in the face with a stick would be softer than your response!



stock!! syclone vs. modded lightning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iILmeORbV4


put that in your pipe and smoke it.
ive been smoking all kindsa **** tonight. ejony the video bud


edit: as long as its drag racing its okay right?

lol
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 09:31 PM
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lmao

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-04-2008, 12:49 PM
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ohh yeah just to clear things up. i was "assuming" since these engine were already supercharged you could just remove the factory supercharger and hook up a nice turbo without prepping the engine to maintain this. "assuming" it was already built to handle forced induction. no one has answerd my question on this yet. so your opinion would be very helpful.
Yes...it can and has been done. With the properly sized turbo it spools up very quick and makes decent power (around 400 rwhp) on pump gas. Will probably make about 450 with a better cam.

Doing it required a bunch of custom made parts and some fabrication skills. This particular car also has ported heads, mild cam, fuel system upgrades, much larger exhaust, custom FMIC, custom upper intake manifold, a calibrated blow thru mass air meter, larger TB, SCT chip with custom tunes...and many other parts intended to support around 600 rwhp on race gas.

See this thread for more info and pics.

http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthre...recision+turbo

David

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-04-2008, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loud car View Post
wow Kdanner, A slap in the face with a stick would be softer than your response!



stock!! syclone vs. modded lightning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iILmeORbV4


put that in your pipe and smoke it.
ive been smoking all kindsa **** tonight. ejony the video bud


edit: as long as its drag racing its okay right?



So because some dude on You tube says the Syclone is stock and the lightning is modded that must be fact huh?

Why don't you learn a little bit more automotive knowledge before you come on here posting non-conclusive facts and vague shards of "knowledge". You are really starting to seem like a troll.

Jim

1995 Thunderbird LX: Vortech S-Trim(12psi), Forged PI 4.6, T-45, SCT Tune, Eibach Pro-kit, Magnaflow DI/DO Exhaust, 3.73 TL, and 17" Cobras

1995 Thunderbird SC: Bone Stock
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-04-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loud car View Post
the 6cylinder turbos just put out ridiculous torque at really low rpms. i think they put out the most torque 350ftlbs @ 2200rpm which is really low, where as a v8 would get most torque around 5 or 6k rpm so when its in its final gear cruising it would do better
read up on V8's a little more.....

Most V8's have their torque come on down low in a N/A application.
For instance, look at the numbers on my 73 T-bird:
HP - 208 @ 4400 RPM's
TQ - 338 @ 2800 RPM's


thas a far cry from 5-6k.

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rest in peace JL
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-04-2008, 03:52 PM
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Why do ppl always mention supras? the ****in things take like 3 hours to spool with the T70s ppl put on em, and they're just dyno queens.

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In a perfect world there would be no drag coefficient and honda civics would do 300mph, but then again who would want to go that fast in a tin can?
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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-04-2008, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeRWK View Post
Why do ppl always mention supras? the ****in things take like 3 hours to spool with the T70s ppl put on em, and they're just dyno queens.
Precisely!

Jim

1995 Thunderbird LX: Vortech S-Trim(12psi), Forged PI 4.6, T-45, SCT Tune, Eibach Pro-kit, Magnaflow DI/DO Exhaust, 3.73 TL, and 17" Cobras

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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-05-2008, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schlarmanm1 View Post
I wouldnt say that a 6cylinder turbo is the most capable engine known. i have had people tell me you can get more HP out of a toyota supra engine than you can any big block and thats total bull **** that's my .02
i agree
i cant see a toyota supra with dual turbos out scattin a twin turbo v10 viper....maybe if they took out the engine dropped one twice then size then ill believe it

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