5.0 turbo kit... - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-24-2005, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
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5.0 turbo kit...

Now with my wedding plans off ... it seems likely I will be seeking out a turbo kit for my 5.0 Cougar. I am looking at what HP Performance has to offer, seems like they do good work... I see they are soon to offer a 3.8 SC kit... which makes it seem like a kit for a 5.0 Cougar would be simple, basically cobbling parts from the upcoming SC kit and the vast amount of 5.0 mustang inventory.

http://www.turbochargedpower.com/Turbo%20Kits.htm

What do you guys think... since I haven't the time or ambition to build a kit myself, do you turbo experts think HP performance offers a good kit?

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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 02:13 PM
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Tell them to ditch out the H-pipe (at least that's what it appears to be) and sell it less the cost of the H pipe. H pipes are a waste with a turbo car. Actually they will reduce performance. You want a straight, wide open path from each turbo to either a Y piece and single pipe of double the diameter of the pipes leaving the turbo, or just two independent pipes, each leading straight back to their own straight-through muffler.

You don't want backpressure-creating setups after the turbo in the exhaust path. That slows down spool. And besides the turbine housings themselves provide plenty of backpressure as it is. For the same reasons I told Bill, you need the end volume after a turbo to be larger to allow the expanding exhaust gases room to expand quicker and easier.

Drop the price of the H-pipe section and the rest of it looks ok. Those turbos are way too big for a stock setup tho, if you run with those, you'd better be running waaay lower compression forged pistons.

Oh wait I haven't even considered price! GEEZ $4,500? Is that typical for a V8 kit? Owch. No thanks. Bill has the right idea with DIY.

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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arro
Tell them to ditch out the H-pipe (at least that's what it appears to be) and sell it less the cost of the H pipe. H pipes are a waste with a turbo car. Actually they will reduce performance. You want a straight, wide open path from each turbo to either a Y piece and single pipe of double the diameter of the pipes leaving the turbo, or just two independent pipes, each leading straight back to their own straight-through muffler.

You don't want backpressure-creating setups after the turbo in the exhaust path. That slows down spool. And besides the turbine housings themselves provide plenty of backpressure as it is. For the same reasons I told Bill, you need the end volume after a turbo to be larger to allow the expanding exhaust gases room to expand quicker and easier.

Drop the price of the H-pipe section and the rest of it looks ok. Those turbos are way too big for a stock setup tho, if you run with those, you'd better be running waaay lower compression forged pistons.

Oh wait I haven't even considered price! GEEZ $4,500? Is that typical for a V8 kit? Owch. No thanks. Bill has the right idea with DIY.
Thanks for the input.

Actually, I think the kit installed is more than 4500... but I neither have the time, expertise or will to do it myself...

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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More questions...

Will my stock block (actually a ford racing crate, but I doubt it's anything different than stock) hold up to 500rwhp?

And will my recently moderately built up Aod hold up to 500rwhp?

This may be a dumb question, but is turbo charged power hard/gentle/same as other methods of making more hp such as, rpm's, SC, or nitrous oxide?

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 08:27 PM
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Out of all the power adders, turbocharging is the easiest on parts. "Spool up" time is generally somewhere between a positive displacement blower and a centrifical. (with a properly sized turbo, and other factors.)

It doesn't give that instant hit of power to the drivetrain like N2o, or a roots/twin screw blower, and it dosn't strain the end of the crank with more belt pressure like a centrifical blower does.

As for the tranny and block, I would keep the power around 450rwhp for maximum reliability, but the 5.0L blocks have been known to with stand more. Your just taking a risk, thats all.

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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoltz13
More questions...

Will my stock block (actually a ford racing crate, but I doubt it's anything different than stock) hold up to 500rwhp?

And will my recently moderately built up Aod hold up to 500rwhp?

This may be a dumb question, but is turbo charged power hard/gentle/same as other methods of making more hp such as, rpm's, SC, or nitrous oxide?
Your engine won't hold up. You have a cast crank and hypereutectic pistons. IIRC, you got the GT40 FRPP long block and that is the specs on it. Any serious power adder will push your block far too hard and 500rwhp would mean that you would need to put out over 600HP at the crank.

You needed to be thinking about doing this when you bought your engine. Obviously I voted that it was a bad idea.
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1WLD BRD
Out of all the power adders, turbocharging is the easiest on parts. "Spool up" time is generally somewhere between a positive displacement blower and a centrifical. (with a properly sized turbo, and other factors.)

It doesn't give that instant hit of power to the drivetrain like N2o, or a roots/twin screw blower, and it dosn't strain the end of the with more belt pressure like a centrifical blower does.

As for the tranny and block, I would keep the power around 450rwhp for maximum reliability, but the 5.0L blocks have been known to with stand more. Your just taking a risk, thats all.
Thanks... that's kind of what I expected^^^

With a turbo you can basically mess with the wastegate to adjust how much boost/hp you want, right? So could I possibly trim it back a bit for daily driving and turn it up at the track?

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MaddMartigan
Your engine won't hold up. You have a cast and hypereutectic pistons. IIRC, you got the GT40 FRPP long block and that is the specs on it. Any serious power adder will push your block far too hard and 500rwhp would mean that you would need to put out over 600HP at the .

You needed to be thinking about doing this when you bought your engine. Obviously I voted that it was a bad idea.
I wish I had thought of this... I truly believed that my current mods would be enough!

What exactly will I be facing with my block, and pistons... Say I break a ... could I just do the build up then? I do have the stock block laying around... how much of a gamble would I be taking?

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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoltz13
I wish I had thought of this... I truly believed that my current mods would be enough!

What exactly will I be facing with my block, and pistons... Say I break a ... could I just do the build up then? I do have the stock block laying around... how much of a gamble would I be taking?
It's a gamble but all power adders really are. Like any other combo, as long as you have it tuned correctly and NEVER have any detonation and you keep it reasonable you should be OK.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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It's a gamble but all power adders really are. Like any other combo, as long as you have it tuned correctly and NEVER have any detonation and you keep it reasonable you should be OK.
Do you concur with 1WLD BRD, that a turbo is a safer power adder?

Btw, I talked with the guys at HP performance, they have something like 17 cars they are doing installations on... booked until June! The guy I talked to also said that they put kits on the high compression vette motors, etc... and sounds like they don't mess around, they do the fuel system upgrade, dyno tune, etc. (I'd to have to toss the 24lb injector and 190lb fuel pump after just over a year of use.... curse my short term vision... )

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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 05:27 AM
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Do you concur with 1WLD BRD, that a turbo is a safer power adder?

Btw, I talked with the guys at HP performance, they have something like 17 cars they are doing installations on... booked until June! The guy I talked to also said that they put kits on the high compression vette motors, etc... and sounds like they don't mess around, they do the fuel system upgrade, dyno tune, etc. (I'd to have to toss the 24lb injector and 190lb fuel pump after just over a year of use.... curse my short term vision... )
What are your real goals here? The issues of a centrifugal SC can be and should be remedied by using the correct balancer. That often gets left out of the equation. You will need to buy an SFI balancer or you could have happen what happen to my buddy. He got lucky when his balancer snapped since he was only going about 15 miles an hour. He now has an SFI.

There is always the issue of doing it the "right way" and the "cheap way". Vortech offers you the ability to do it cheaper by providing the fuel management system that compensates for the fuel requirements by increasing fuel pressure under boost. With their added inline pump it works out. In this way you can have it both ways basically. That really isn't the best way but it does work. If they decide to modify the fuel system then be careful. Our fuel tanks don't lend themselves to major changes. If you are going beyond a 190lph pump then I have the feeling that the stock lines aren't going to cut it and that is an additional cost as well but may also introduce some logistical issues. Moving over to a fuel cell on an EFI car that you also want to drive on the street regularly isn't a simple matter.

Again, what are your real goals here. It would help us to understand how you intend on using the car as well as your HP goals and anything else you can tell us.

Oh yeah, if you get to even 500rwhp you will start breaking a lot of things in both the suspension and the driveline. Just something to consider.
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1WLD BRD
Out of all the power adders, turbocharging is the easiest on parts. "Spool up" time is generally somewhere between a positive displacement blower and a centrifical. (with a properly sized turbo, and other factors.)
This is not true, turbos can be brutal on engine parts, due to heat and detonation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaddMartigan
It's a gamble but all power adders really are. Like any other combo, as long as you have it tuned correctly and NEVER have any detonation and you keep it reasonable you should be OK.
Detonation WILL happen. It's just a matter of when and how much.

Look, the compression on my 4.6L is 9:1. I imagine the 5 liter is similar or even less. If it's that or lower, you can probably run 5-7psi safely on it, provided you add enough fuel and INTERCOOL IT. I know Bill thinks an intercooler is unnecessary, but with 10 years of turbocharging under my belt, I know how important intercooling is to a turbo engine. I don't even like these centrifugal supercharged setups when they have no IC. Compressed air makes ALOT of heat. Heat makes the air/fuel mixture more prone to detonation. Compressed air also makes it more prone to detonation due to air friction. So the cooler you can get it, the better.

WHen you add more fuel to compressed air, it's not just to take advantage of the larger air mass in the combustion chamber, it's because fuel spray also cools down the air temp charge. Cooling the air temp charge is VITAL to avoiding catastrophic detonation.

Like I said, with the right fuel amount and the right intercooler, you might be able to safely get away with 5-7psi stock. On a turbo with an internal wastegate, they usually come with external arms and vacuum canisters, sprung to a minimum of 7psi. SO you will have to lengthen the arm or something to reduce the tension on it to bring it down to a safer 5 psi.

Look, no offense, but if you aren't willing to do any work yourself, you really have no business with a turbo setup in the first place. Turbocharging requires alot of knowledge. If you aren't up to par to installing it, chances are you don't know enough about it either. Just take your time, learn some more about tuning, and then if you want to still, do it. I am myself thinking about it, but even I will seek outside assistance, and will make damn sure I have another running car in case I go BOOM.

In either case good luck.

For reference, you might call the following:

Turbonetics
Turbo City
Turbo Trix

All should be on the net or in national listings.

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 02:02 PM
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What you're not getting is that I have 4 times the amount of pipe that most turbos do and it's all in the airstream. Plus my turbo runs 500° cooler than most underhood mounted turbos. The company that has the patents on the remote mounted turbos sees on average a 50% intercooler efficiency which as I'm sure you're aware is about the same as you usually get from a "standard" intercooler. The difference is that I don't have the same pressure drop that a traditional intercooler has.

Until I can get some datalogging software working right, I can't say for sure, but I've got more pipe on my car than any other installation they've done. My pipe is also in a better place than all of their others too. So I'd say air charge cooling is just not a problem yet.

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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 05:25 PM
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Ah ha..... yes I forgot the pressure drop, true true.

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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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Look, no offense, but if you aren't willing to do any work yourself, you really have no business with a turbo setup in the first place. Turbocharging requires alot of knowledge. If you aren't up to par to installing it, chances are you don't know enough about it either. Just take your time, learn some more about tuning, and then if you want to still, do it. I am myself thinking about it, but even I will seek outside assistance, and will make damn sure I have another running car in case I go BOOM.

In either case good luck.
Oh.... I have studied up on turbo theory and believe myself to be somewhat mechanically inclined... I'm just after a once and done way of getting a turbo installed.

Btw, HP performance supposably does all of the tuning and upgrades to the fuel system...

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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoltz13
Now with my wedding plans off ... it seems likely I will be seeking out a turbo kit for my 5.0 Cougar. I am looking at what HP Performance has to offer, seems like they do good work... I see they are soon to offer a 3.8 SC kit... which makes it seem like a kit for a 5.0 Cougar would be simple, basically cobbling parts from the upcoming SC kit and the vast amount of 5.0 mustang inventory.

http://www.turbochargedpower.com/Turbo%20Kits.htm

What do you guys think... since I haven't the time or ambition to build a kit myself, do you turbo experts think HP performance offers a good kit?
Stoltz13,
You may need to go over to SCCOA am PM David Neibert because his car is in line for a custom job at HP Performance as well. David has installed a custom V8 crate motor into his thunderbird and HP will be adding a sweeeeeeeet turbo application. In fact, his car is supposed to be next in line after mine. He can also likely help you out a lot. Neibert is one hell of a guy with gobs and gobs of information!!!!
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 12:32 AM
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David posts on here too. He has a nice SC and the 5.0 soon-to-be-turbo car.

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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 12:35 AM
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David posts on here too. He has a nice SC and the 5.0 soon-to-be-turbo car.
Sorry, I remembered that after I wrote it.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 05:50 PM
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Yes I would reccomend HP and as far as I know they will be the only company offering a street turbo kit for 5.0 MN12s. BTW, I think the stock motor can handle about 400 rwhp without doing anything except the turbo system, bigger injectors, fuel pump and a dyno tune w/SCT chip.

I'm going for 800 rwhp with AOD and non locking converter (aprox 1067 fwhp) and built everything accordingly. Just need to decide on which turbo...we have it narrowed down to a T76-gts or a GT42 R 76. One supports 1100 HP and the other is good for 1200 HP...both look huge and it may come down to which one will fit under the hood easier.

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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 06:20 PM
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The kind of airflow needed to support 500hp will also require different internals, because I am sure the 5.0 engine is not 8:1 from the factory.

Turbochargers are not like headers and PI heads where you can just slap them on and turn up the b00st. Even with plenty of fuel, if your compression is too high it will blow up well before 500hp.

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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-04-2005, 06:29 PM
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The kind of airflow needed to support 500hp will also require different internals, because I am sure the 5.0 engine is not 8:1 from the factory.

Turbochargers are not like headers and PI heads where you can just slap them on and turn up the b00st. Even with plenty of fuel, if your compression is too high it will blow up well before 500hp.
I would not be surprised if he easily attains his goal with a properly installed designed turbo system. Hell, we have guys out there with 3.8 mustangs who are getting upwards of 400hp with stock internals, heads and cam.
The pontiac GTP guys have also learned the benifits of a turbo. I talked to a guy yesterday who said that they had put years into developing their cars with upgraded camshafts and head design. Thier efforts proved 400hp. With the turbo system (ALONE) they just made 417 rwhp.

Also keep in mind that he won't need all the boost he would with an SC.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-05-2005, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arro
The kind of airflow needed to support 500hp will also require different internals, because I am sure the 5.0 engine is not 8:1 from the factory.

Turbochargers are not like headers and PI heads where you can just slap them on and turn up the b00st. Even with plenty of fuel, if your compression is too high it will blow up well before 500hp.

Take a look at this one.

http://www.turbochargedpower.com/199...han%20Page.htm

There are lots and lots of the turbo mustang guys making similar power on stock heads, cams and internals. I'm not saying that all you need to do is crank up the boost, but it's not rocket science either.

David

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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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David, that's for posting... I'm looking for 400 rwhp... what do I need for a transmission? I have extra clutch packs, "A" servo, kevlar bands, shift kit... will that hold up?

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-08-2005, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
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David, that's for posting... I'm looking for 400 rwhp... what do I need for a transmission? I have extra clutch packs, "A" servo, kevlar bands, shift kit... will that hold up?
Yes I think it will hold up fine. That's pretty much all I did on my 91 SC. But I did get a hardened inner shaft, non locking converter and VB from Lentech. If your going to do a turbo, you'll want a higher stall setting to help spool the turbo. I went with 2800, but you could probably get away with a lower stall if you used a smaller turbo.

With an AOD the Lentech VB is far better than any shift kit and allows you to manually shift 1-2-3 and lockout OD when racing.

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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-08-2005, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
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Yes I think it will hold up fine. That's pretty much all I did on my 91 SC. But I did get a hardened inner shaft, non locking converter and VB from Lentech. If your going to do a turbo, you'll want a higher stall setting to help spool the turbo. I went with 2800, but you could probably get away with a lower stall if you used a smaller turbo.

With an AOD the Lentech VB is far better than any shift kit and allows you to manually shift 1-2-3 and lockout OD when racing.

David
I have a lock up converter... 2500 stall?

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-08-2005, 10:30 AM
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I have a lock up converter... 2500 stall?
That would probably work fine. You mainly need the higher stall when launching the car. With that converter your getting slippage (unlocked) in 1st and 2nd gear and it doesn't lock until 3rd. The hardened inner shaft I mentioned earlier may be needed to keep from breaking it on the shift into third. It just slides in so you could always try using the stock shaft and only upgrade if you break it.

I like the non locking converter because the shift into 3rd is softened and since the converter is still slipping you get torque multiplication. Good for the track but not really needed on the street.

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2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-08-2005, 01:58 PM
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go see disney lincoln over at FvC... he's got a "thrown together" blow thru twin turbo setup on his mark VII... one sick car

2001 Mustang GT ~ The Cookie-Cutter Hotrod
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-10-2005, 09:24 PM
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There has been a change in my plans regarding what company is doing the custom turbo work on my car. Instead of going to HP in New Mexico, I will now be taking the car to a company in Dayton, OH called ForcedFab. Not because they are better or cheaper than HP, because they are ready to start on the car in two weeks and have it done before WFC.

HP received my 60% down payment on April 6th and was supposed to start the car in late July and have it done by early October. After numerous delays and broken promises, I'm still waiting to bring the car out to their shop. When I last spoke to them on Jan 31st they said it would be another 4 weeks before they could even tell me when they plan to start on it. When I pressed for a firm start date I was told it would be at least 6 more weeks before they were even ready to have the car brought out.

I'm sure they would have eventually done a great job, but I just couldn't wait any longer and canceled the order today. So, I'm officially changing my vote to I Don't Know. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-10-2005, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Neibert
There has been a change in my plans regarding what company is doing the custom turbo work on my car. Instead of going to HP in New Mexico, I will now be taking the car to a company in Dayton, OH called ForcedFab. Not because they are better or cheaper than HP, because they are ready to start on the car in two weeks and have it done before WFC.

HP received my 60% down payment on April 6th and was supposed to start the car in late July and have it done by early October. After numerous delays and broken promises, I'm still waiting to bring the car out to their shop. When I last spoke to them on Jan 31st they said it would be another 4 weeks before they could even tell me when they plan to start on it. When I pressed for a firm start date I was told it would be at least 6 more weeks before they were even ready to have the car brought out.

I'm sure they would have eventually done a great job, but I just couldn't wait any longer and canceled the order today. So, I'm officially changing my vote to I Don't Know. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

David
This is big news David, but I want you to know that I am behind you all the way. I checked with HP today to ensure that my project was still due to be finished at the end of March and "Jimmy" swears that he is still on schedule. I am going to hang in there, but just to be safe I contacted "Carson" from Forcefab and I told him of my intentions if things don't work out for me with HP Performance. We are still on the same team dude, and I wish you the best.
Frank
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-10-2005, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtybird91
This is big news David, but I want you to know that I am behind you all the way. I checked with HP today to ensure that my project was still due to be finished at the end of March and "Jimmy" swears that he is still on schedule. I am going to hang in there, but just to be safe I contacted "Carson" from Forcefab and I told him of my intentions if things don't work out for me with HP Performance. We are still on the same team dude, and I wish you the best.
Frank
Frank,

Thanks for the support. Like I told you on the phone today, I will still be happy to provide HP with any technical assistance I can to help get your project completed.

David

1991 SC AOD 4.2..2.3 Whipple..........10.910 @ 125.61
2016 SRT Challenger Hellcat..................707HP/650TQ
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