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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-24-2007, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Twin force= reality?

While looking through a very cool magazine, Ford Builder, I read a article about the Lincoln MKR concept. I thought ''sweet car, sweet motor, build it!!". The one part about the MKR that really caught my eye was the twin force turbo system. 265HP with good mileage, then twin turbo madness on demand 415HP.
Is the twinforce system really true. Can turbos be on demand? what would you have to have in order to twin force a 4.6L, if you catch my drift? I still want mileage for college, but power is good too.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-24-2007, 07:21 PM
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you would have to run a electronic wastegate to bleed of the exhaust and its got to be a big one

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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-24-2007, 07:46 PM
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ohhhhh ho ho!

Sure you can make a system like that...





with a lot of money.

Turbos CAN be changed on demand, using what's called Variable Vane Technology (VVT), which changes the vane angle of the turbos if I recall correctly.
The thing is, getting the car to know when "DEMAND" is...
Like use the 415hp ECU map under WOT but the stock ECU map under partial throttle?

Really the best option is to PI swap the darn car already...
If you're REALLY after mileage, perform a 5-spd swap and PI or 5.0L swap (using the M5RE from the supercoupe with supercoupe clutchbits) and mod the 5.0L, while using a very low gearset such as 2.97 gears... but for optimal power/mileage I suggest investing in an aluminum PI motor (-90lbs) aluminum MKVIII Lower Control Arms (-30lbs), aluminum driveshaft (-5lbs), aluminum differential carrier from MK VIII (-25lbs), Non-Power seats (-65lbs)... Then go and scrape out the sound deadening(-15lbs)... remove that weird brace behind the rear seat (-10lbs)...

Assuming the car started out weighing 3750lbs, and you lose all that weight, you can get the car down to 3510lbs without ANY real sacrifices to comfort...
that will not only boost gas mileage by like 4 city mpg, but you are also running 240lbs lighter (that's equivalent to 24rwhp)...

If you really go crazy with weight reduction you might go as low as 2800...

back to my original point,
the turbos-on-demand thing will probably be significantly expensive...

bottom line, for a budget college kid (who is not an engineering student capable of doing hands-on work) this will be VERY expensive.

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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 05:33 PM
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I'm preety sure that's what they are putting on the super duties, if I'm not mistaken.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 06:38 PM
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yeah on some ford diesel trucks they have VGT, variable geometry turbo

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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 07:11 PM
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variable geometry is for creating a faster spool up on the turbo not shuting it down
btw turbos are basically boost on demand lol the car runs NA and sees great gas milage under part throttle and cruise

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2007, 11:34 PM
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Don't Remove the Brace

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ghost View Post
Then go and scrape out the sound deadening(-15lbs)... remove that weird brace behind the rear seat (-10lbs)...
The brace is structural support... I would recommend against removing it

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94mncougar View Post
The brace is structural support... I would recommend against removing it

- Stephen
But if you're going for absolute weight reduction that'd do it.
I got that from the "Getting Weight Off Your Bird" tech article ON THIS SITE.

I figured it's there as a brace of some kind, so that's why I've left mine there, I'm probably going to get f/r shock tower braces as well.

anyhow, what they're saying about turbos being boost on demand as it is, that's true... it's only under nearly full throttle the little boost solenoid closes and it provides pressure on the intake...

-Ghost

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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 03:08 AM
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i doubt that brace even weighs 5lbs, leave it on!

-Matt
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 01:24 AM
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Ghost, I agree that it would remove some weight if one were putting his or her car on the ultimate weight loss plan, but the benefits of the 5lbs does not outweigh the risk of the car breaking under a hard turn. It is part of the structural support with the rear window (at least I am sure the window is with the cougars). Even though the site may say to remove it, I always try to remember that sometimes articles are inaccurate and outdated, and I would feel that the general consensus would be to keep the brace on. Then again, that is just my 2 cents.

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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2007, 07:13 PM
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i ditched that brace years and years ago and after so many hard turns everythings fine

2x95 cougars to the scapper
97 F250 psd 4x4 dd twin charged
48 Gmc Detroit diesel 453t twin sticked
45 Chevy 451 detroit twin sticked
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-30-2007, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ghost View Post
But if you're going for absolute weight reduction that'd do it.
I got that from the "Getting Weight Off Your Bird" tech article ON THIS SITE.

I figured it's there as a brace of some kind, so that's why I've left mine there, I'm probably going to get f/r shock tower braces as well.

anyhow, what they're saying about turbos being boost on demand as it is, that's true... it's only under nearly full throttle the little boost solenoid closes and it provides pressure on the intake...

-Ghost
so would removing the k-member.

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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-30-2007, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin turbo 281 View Post
i ditched that brace years and years ago and after so many hard turns everythings fine
I'm not going to say that all cars will break with it removed. I'm saying it is there for a reason and it is not worthwhile to remove. Read this:

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.p...ighlight=brace

There are many threads saying the same thing...

- Stephen

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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-30-2007, 11:11 PM
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actually, mine has managed to snap apart from the top mounting spots. I would assume that this is because my chassis is not braced beyond stock, and I have eibach springs. I take corners HARD sometimes and the stress probably fractured that weak sheet metal. If I were to fix it, I would make a new one out of 1/4" steel. It would act as a shock tower brace.
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-30-2007, 11:16 PM
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i agree that these cars dont have the best rigidness but removing that brace isnt going to make the difference if the body is going to twist that flimsy seat brace isnt going to stop that. The only way would to build subframe conectors and get fancy with x braces and such...

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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-01-2007, 10:40 PM
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I agree that the brace is flimsy... and what Thomas said to do is a way to upgrade. The thing is, the forces that the brace feels is not in the flimsy direction; that is, it is similar to bending sheet metal. The piece bends easily one way, but can be incredibly strong in another. I haven't had mine break, and I have seen cougars with them removed and have been fine, I am just concerned about recommending something that has been proven to be a structural component of the car. . . back to the MKR? Sorry to sway topics

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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2007, 09:05 PM
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I need f/r shock tower braces, and a complete suspension rebuild

This is such a threadjack...

Anyhow, like I said, a power-on-demand kinda set up would be hard to do.
*I* think the best option would be a set of switch-on-the-fly tunes to use, one for low power, high economy, and one for low economy, high power... much like BMW's (M) button. Oh, I love the (M) button.

The closest answer would be to simply twinturbocharge the 4.6L, and use switch-on-the-fly tunes for variable rates of fuel consumption. This would require a VERY skilled tuner and definitely a dynomometer, forged internals and some other goodies...

IMHO I think all-aluminum suspension bits, add f/r shock tower braces, and a twin-turbocharger setup... that'd be the best thing... That would get you close to the MK-R, but the thing is, it is a newer vehicle with newer OEM technology, and pushing 15 year old equipment to do the same thing is hard.

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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2007, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ghost View Post
... but the thing is, it is a newer vehicle with newer OEM technology, and pushing 15 year old equipment to do the same thing is hard.

Very good point. That what sucks yet is the beauty of working on these cars. They have so much potential, but it sucks getting them to that point of happiness.

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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-02-2007, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Ghost View Post
I need f/r shock tower braces, and a complete suspension rebuild

This is such a threadjack...

Anyhow, like I said, a power-on-demand kinda set up would be hard to do.
*I* think the best option would be a set of switch-on-the-fly tunes to use, one for low power, high economy, and one for low economy, high power... much like BMW's (M) button. Oh, I love the (M) button.

The closest answer would be to simply twinturbocharge the 4.6L, and use switch-on-the-fly tunes for variable rates of fuel consumption. This would require a VERY skilled tuner and definitely a dynomometer, forged internals and some other goodies...

IMHO I think all-aluminum suspension bits, add f/r shock tower braces, and a twin-turbocharger setup... that'd be the best thing... That would get you close to the MK-R, but the thing is, it is a newer vehicle with newer OEM technology, and pushing 15 year old equipment to do the same thing is hard.
like i had said before turbos are power on demand

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97 F250 psd 4x4 dd twin charged
48 Gmc Detroit diesel 453t twin sticked
45 Chevy 451 detroit twin sticked
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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2007, 02:08 AM
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exactly, turbos and SCs are power on demand.. but for it to actually switch output levels and fuel economy would require two different tunes... or just different wastegate pressures (i believe it is called a wastegate)

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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2007, 12:29 PM
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You can control your boost on the turbos through a boost controller hooked up to your wastegates. You can't 'turn your turbos off' or anything... that's rice talk. But you can go as low as the wastegate allows you, and as high as the turbos will spool.. considering you have the right fuel injectors/pump.

I know, I run 19 - 20psi at 7300RPM on a twin 15G turboed dodge stealth. If I want, I can run any amount of boost I want... from 7psi - 23psi.

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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2007, 05:04 PM
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it would be as simple as welding in and electric cutout to bypass the turbo. easy=boost with a switch

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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2007, 10:42 PM
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is that so?

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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-03-2007, 11:36 PM
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would be just like having a very very large wastegate stuck open and since the cars seeing no boost it will run NA and not be using up additional fuel. but again its pointless because even with a traditional setup at part throttle cruise (depending on the setup) you woulnt see boost ...car runs NA. The only difference with the cutout idea would to be able to run WOT without boost but who would want to do that if you had boost available lol

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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-04-2007, 12:15 AM
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blah blah blah. Find me a daily driver with a turbo that isnt rear mounted. Ill add to that a car that doesnt need the entire cooling system rerouted and the front end gutted and rebuilt just to accomodate a small intercooler.....then ill see it as successful.




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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-04-2007, 02:14 AM
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i dont see why rear mount isnt successful there are mustangs and camaros running 9s and still cruise 2 the grocery store.

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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-04-2007, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
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i dont see why rear mount isnt successful there are mustangs and camaros running 9s and still cruise 2 the grocery store.
is this a mustang or camaro site? No. Has a rear mount been done on an MN12? Yes.




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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-04-2007, 04:45 PM
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and another twin remote in progress but yeah its not successful yet lol

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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-16-2007, 10:24 AM
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i was thinking, if the setup was drawthrough, and you had 2 paths to the intake, one through the compressors, one straight to the intake. and used an actuator hooked to a switch in the cabin to determin which path is being used, it could work. Much like the suspension swich on turbocoupes. They could also link up suspension dampening controls to the same switch the the entire car would change. an extra exhaust cutout could be used to completely cut the turbo from the system if you wanted. I would still opt for VVT tho.
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 05-17-2007, 08:09 AM
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You guys are over complicating it. All this power on demand variable ratio stuff isn't needed if you properly size the turbo. Everything has to be sized for the max power you want to make...that's it. Packaging is the difficult part.

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