Oh Fudge! SCT Busted! - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 02:58 AM Thread Starter
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Oh Fudge! SCT Busted!

Quote:
On Monday, the US Department of Justice (DOJ) announced a settlement with an after-market car technology company called Derive Systems. Derive was accused of selling 363,000 devices that could defeat the emissions control systems of any car. The settlement called for Derive to spend around $6 million correcting its sold and unsold software to prevent further emissions tampering, as well as pay a fine of $300,000.


"Over a span of multiple years, Derive sold products, including custom engine tuning software and parts, online and at distributers across the nation under the brand names of 'Bully Dog' and 'SCT' for use in many types of gasoline and diesel-fueled cars and trucks," a press release from the DOJ noted. The DOJ refers to Derive's offending products as "defeat devices," a term that anyone familiar with Volkswagen Group's 2015 diesel scandal will recall. In regulatory parlance, a "defeat device" is any physical or digital addition to a car that "defeats" its emissions control system.

From a different spot:
"Under the terms of the settlement, Derive must stop introducing new noncompliant tuners into commerce and retrofit existing tuners so that they comply with the Clean Air Act. All new and existing tuners offered for sale must have a reasonable basis demonstrating that the use of the products will not adversely affect vehicle emissions. Besides tuners, Derive must limit access to key emission control parameters in their custom tuning software and create a customer verification program for users of the custom tuning software, which includes training about vehicle functions, emission controls, and the Clean Air Act requirements. Derive must stop any marketing that would provide information on how consumers can defeat emission controls in their vehicles, and work with their national distributors to prevent the packaged sale of their products with companion defeat devices. Derive must train their employees to comply with the Clean Air Act. Derive must also pay a penalty of $300,000 based on the company’s demonstrated limited ability to pay a larger amount."
I think the new version of SCT software is going to remove some features...

I'm one of those 363,000 users.


https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/09...ices-doj-says/


The advantage software throws up a new eula when you open it, that you have to agree to.

The switches for EGR and rear O2 sensors, that were specifically mentioned in the article, are still there.

I'm going to update my tuning laptops, make backups, and make sure they talk to sct's server.

When you run the software, it uploads a file showing what devices you are writing tunes to; they get kinda picky with me, as I have 3 cars, so they see the numbers change. Most people who do that are Dealers level licenses.

They require this file once a year, or your software won't work; so hopefully, my computers can be off the network for a year.

I'll run a backup, and write the date on it; resetting the clock will make the backup work forever, lol.

I did see that they added some new terms to the license: If I sell someone a tune, no only does it void my license, but they can charge me the PRP cost and half the cost of the tuning device.

Sounds like a good reason not to sell tunes, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote

Last edited by Grog6; 09-26-2018 at 08:10 AM. Reason: more info...
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 09:17 AM
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Surprises me given the anything goes "Free-for-all" that the EPA has become under the current administration.

I've got to catch a flight to JFK shortly. I'll catch up on this when I get there.

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Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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I know everyone in this thread is in that 300k users number. I've got 4 tuners, and PRP, so it's definitely us.

Guess I need to look into hi-flow cats, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 10:35 AM
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Nazis. I guess I’ll turn off auto updates...

Good news is they’ll probably have to comb the databases one by one to take out these features, and more than likely they’re going to focus on newer models than older ones. Thunderbird’s and Cougars always slip through the cracks, hopefully it works in our favor for once
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-Matt

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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 12:38 PM
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Pfft.

Penalty of $300,000 / 363,000 users = .826 ˘ per user.

What a slap on the wrist. I find it interesting that they justify that amount by saying "...based on the company’s demonstrated limited ability to pay a larger amount."

That software's been a gold mine for them for years. I have no sympathy.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't see why they couldn't slap "For off-road use only" all over it and skirt the law like so many other companies do with so many other products.
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Mods? Yea, I got mods ...
Air silencer delete, warp drive, dilithium crystals, flux capacitor, Slingshot Rubber band power adder, Moonshine & Gas, Leaf Blower Supercharger, Hamster Wheel & Hamster, Energizer Bunny generating 1.21 gigawatts, Mr. Fusion® Home Energy Reactor, hover conversion and a sextant celestial navigation system (The original GPS)
Best 1/4: 1,320 nanoseconds @ 670,616,629.2 miles per hour

"There isn't that much difference anymore between spacecraft, aircraft and modern automobiles..." - Keith Henry, NASA's Langley Research Center
See a list of my real mods and pictures of my car HERE. The true performance of my car was made possible by the Carolinas Crew Chief, RobertP at Rob's Tire & Auto
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 02:20 PM
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I’m almost certain when I bought my software somewhere in the EULA it stated for off road use only, but the EPA has been making waves on cracking down on that disclaimer for the last few years with aftermarket companies, I remember signing a petition organized by SEMA a few years back related to that.

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2016...cecar-petition

I have had my tuning stuff for almost 10 years though, and there was no derive systems merger with all these tuning companies so maybe that changed. I think the diesel tuning end is the bigger unspoken target by this investigation, blame the coal rollers.

I have saved mvf files for tunes with EGR and rear 02s shut off where I could use them as base tunes to go off of, so even if they took away the switches in the software those will still be loaded (I have an old jerry tune with dealer level transmission settings I did that with).

-Matt
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 04:03 PM
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Heh... I was afraid something like this was coming down the tubes. Good thing I've got plenty of burns left! Time to take a disk snapshot and keep the clock at a standstill.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 06:18 PM
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https://www.justice.gov/enrd/consent...96001/download

Quote:

FIRST CLAIM FOR RELIEF
Violation of Section 203(a)(3)(B): SCT Products
33. The United States re-alleges paragraphs 1 through 32 above as if fully set forth
herein.
34. Between September 20, 2013, and the present, Defendants manufactured, sold or
offered to sell at least 300,000 of the following products:
a. SCT Advantage III Ford Pro Racer Software Packages (Product No. 4332);
b. SCT Advantage III Dodge/Chrysler Pro Racer Software Packages (Product
No. 4332DCX);
c. SCT Advantage III General Motors Pro Racer Software Packages (Product
No. 4332GM);
Case 1:18-cv-02201 Document 1 Filed 09/24/18 Page 6 of 11
7
d. Ford All Gas Software Packages (Product No. 4100);
e. Ford All-Gas & Diesel Packages (Product No. 4100D);
f. Complete GM & Ford Software Packages (Product No. 4100GF);
g. SCT SF3 Ford Power Flash Programmers (Product No. 3015);
h. SF3 Power Flash Programmers (Product No. 3015R);
i. SCT SF3 GM Power Flash Programmers (Product No. 3416);
j. SCT Ford Livewire TS Performance Programmers and Monitors (Product No.
5015);
k. SCT Ford Livewire TS+ Performance Programmers and Monitors (Product
No. 5015P);
l. SCT GM Livewire TS Performance Programmers and Monitors (Product No.
5416);
m. SCT X4 Ford Power Flash Programmer (Product No. 7015); and
n. SCT X4 GM Power Flash Programmer (Product No. 7416).
35. The products identified in Paragraph 34 are intended for use with, or as part of,
motor vehicles or motor vehicle engines, including but not limited to the Cadillac Escalade,
Chevy Avalanche, Chevy Silverado, Chevy SSR, Chevy Suburban, Chevy Tahoe, Chevy
Trailblazer, Ford Contour, Ford Crown Victoria, Ford Edge, Ford Escape, Ford Escort, Ford
Excursion, Ford Expedition, Ford Explorer, Ford Explorer Sport Trac, Ford F-150, Ford F-150
Lightning/Harley, Ford F-Series, Ford F-Series Super Duty, Ford Five Hundred, Ford Focus,
Ford GT, Ford GT Supercar, Ford Lighting, Ford Mustang, Ford Ranger, Ford Taurus, Ford
Thunderbird
, GMC Sierra, GMC Yukon, Hummer H2, Lincoln Aviator, Lincoln LS, Lincoln
Zephyr, Lincoln Mark VIII, Lincoln Navigator, Lincoln Town Car, Mercury Cougar, Mercury
Case 1:18-cv-02201 Document 1 Filed 09/24/18 Page 7 of 11
8
Mariner, Mercury Marauder, Mercury Milan, Mercury Montego, Mercury Mystique, Mercury
Sable, and Mercury Grand Marquis.
Aw crap lol

I'm not one of the 363k users though, I bought my stuff in 08 or 09

-Matt
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
https://www.justice.gov/enrd/consent...96001/download



Aw crap lol

I'm not one of the 363k users though, I bought my stuff in 08 or 09


I bought mine in that era too, 2010.

I note they didn't list the Xcal or Xcal2, just the later ones; so maybe they won't go checking cars earlier than than 2013.

That 300k+ number is 0.01% of the total population, so Damn... There's a lot of us.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 06:55 PM
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I think the dispute with tuners is with canned tunes bought online or with an EGR switch in the adjustable parameters(I don’t recall if there is an adjustable parameter for that on mine, I don’t think so). Xcal II hasn’t been production for a long time, well before September 2013, so that’s why it’s not listed. Xcal (I)is a brick, SCT pulled all support for those including flashability because those predate vin-lock and could be exploited for multiple vehicle tunes.

I am most concerned and curious about the state of my advantage software. I haven’t been in contact with SCT since I signed a new EULA years back, but our purchase of the software going back prior to the period in question should effectively make us grandfathered from fuckery to our shit. Otherwise I’m suing lol. I’d settle for unlimited burns

-Matt

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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 07:57 PM
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I'm on that list and haven't even used it yet

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Once the tune is written to the car, I don't think they have the right to dink with it without a warrant.

They could ask to inspect a suspect vehicle and refuse to license it if you refuse to let them look.


Hell, all they'd have to do is drive behind me, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-26-2018, 10:08 PM
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Well now I need to get into tuning my own shit

First: Stacie, 1996 Tbird LX, mild build NPI engine, PI cams and intake, Long tube headers, Jmod.

Second: Ellie, 1989 Tbird SC, r̶e̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶ ̶d̶a̶i̶l̶y̶. off the deep end

Third: 1997 Dodge Ram 1500, thirsty daily.

Fourth: 1990 Tbird SC, GT40 5.0 mated to m5r2, BBK long tubes, motor out the hood, drift car.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 01:41 AM
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So I suspect that SCT X2 and early X3 units will be going up in price?

Damn, I need to buy an SCT unit too right before I get my car back on the road. Though, I think I'd be fine? It'd be a tune for 93 octane, PI intake, cams, and 5spd....?

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 04:32 AM Thread Starter
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDsDontBurn View Post
So I suspect that SCT X2 and early X3 units will be going up in price?

Damn, I need to buy an SCT unit too right before I get my car back on the road. Though, I think I'd be fine? It'd be a tune for 93 octane, PI intake, cams, and 5spd....?
You'll definitely need a tune for the 5-speed; the other stuff (except for cams) can deal. Cams==Tune, lol.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 07:10 AM
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Well his relatively mild PI cams don't really need any tuning - the extra airflow will be handled by the MAF. Same goes for the intake. Technically speaking the transient fueling is different but the real world impact of having that adjusted is miniscule and probably not noticeable from the driver's seat.

I see their court order only comes with the last 5 years of sales records. I bought my PRP back in 2012, so I'm technically not included.

still taking no chances, lol.

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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The thing is, some of us have multiple use cases.

Racecar does not need cats.

Street car must have them. Most places they check.

Highflow cats are ~$200; may have to buy some, lol.

I read a quoted piece, I can't confirm, but it said they would remove the Rear O2 delete, EGR, and pcv settings; whether that's in the prp or not, idk.

I updated this computer yesterday, and they're still there.

I didn't realize there were settings that affected pcv; I'm pretty sure that's not us. Anyone know wtf?

I need to go ahead and write a tune for my 4v engine and get it in the tuner, but I'd be guessing.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


"War Is Peace. Freedom Is Slavery. Ignorance Is Strength." - George Orwell.
Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 07:38 AM
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PCV? Yeah, not on our PCMs. I use EGR settings a ton, as well as O2 bias. [Not] Surprisingly changes a lot of cruise driveability characteristics. Maybe I'll update mine after taking that aforementioned HDD snapshot, and see what is missing (if anything)...

-Brandon
97 Laser Red Thunderbird LX 161k, Stage 2 4.6L 2v N/A | 300 BHP (255 RWHP, 290 RWTQ) | 13.95 @ 97.58 | Build details | Pics at the Lorain Assembly plant
98 Black Mark VIII 155k, stock daily driver
07 Redfire Fusion V6 SEL 178k, for the wife
Gone but not forgotten: 96 Mark VIII, 94 Cougar XR7, 93 Mark VIII

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 09:16 AM
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Might this be the beginning of the era when some of us start using F.A.S.T. or Holley ECM systems?

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PI 4.6. Bullitt intake. Stage 2 MHS cams. Kooks Headers. 4,200 ATF Speed converter. BCA Transmission. 4:10s. Tune by Supercoupes Unlimited. 245 RWHP.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
The thing is, some of us have multiple use cases.

Racecar does not need cats.

Street car must have them. Most places they check.

Highflow cats are ~$200; may have to buy some, lol.

I read a quoted piece, I can't confirm, but it said they would remove the Rear O2 delete, EGR, and pcv settings; whether that's in the prp or not, idk.

I updated this computer yesterday, and they're still there.

I didn't realize there were settings that affected pcv; I'm pretty sure that's not us. Anyone know wtf?

I need to go ahead and write a tune for my 4v engine and get it in the tuner, but I'd be guessing.

Could they have meant EVAP instead of PCV? That, rear O2s and EGR/DPFE are the emissions monitors we use. PCV, even the electronic ones with a heater aren’t monitored or PCM controlled, unless that’s a very recent development by the OEMs.


I doubt we’ll be seeing the update come within a day of the headline.


Also, like I said, make a tune files NOW with EGR deleted, rear O2s deleted, and both and save them. When SCT pulls these settings from the database via update your files will still have the changes in the code regardless

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Originally Posted by Thunderstruck95 View Post
Might this be the beginning of the era when some of us start using F.A.S.T. or Holley ECM systems?
I don’t trust aftermarket controllers in the long term, OEM hardware is always better where it counts. Plus if you live somewhere you have OBDII testing you’ll never pass without a port to communicate.

There is always MIL eliminators and circuits can be made that simulate DPFE if EGR and cat delete is a must.

-Matt
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 12:36 PM
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So I get that they would be upset about a toggle switch to simply turn off an emissions component, but ultimately, a tuner is simply a tool that is used to work on a vehicle, just like a scan tool, or a wrench. If I cut the cats out of my car and weld in straight pipe, are they going to sue Milwaukee for making the Sawzall, and Lincoln for making the welder that I used? No, in that example, I would have used those tools for an illegal activity, but it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure their tools can't be used for that.
Increasing EGR on the highway is a common method of tuning for better fuel mileage, and is something I have done before. Also both EGR and EVAP will often need to be adjusted for a cam swap, since a more aggressive cam with the same EGR flow could lead to drivability issues with the factory settings, so a tuner has very legitimate reasons to need to access those parameters. Again, having a "turn your emissions controls off" button is clearly a "defeat device", however I think there is a good argument for leaving the functionality to change them there, and if someone uses that functionality to zero everything out and turn things off completely, that is on them, and just as SCT is not liable if you change things in the tune that cause you to blow your motor, they also should not be liable for you violating federal law by tampering with emissions devices.
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
So I get that they would be upset about a toggle switch to simply turn off an emissions component, but ultimately, a tuner is simply a tool that is used to work on a vehicle, just like a scan tool, or a wrench. If I cut the cats out of my car and weld in straight pipe, are they going to sue Milwaukee for making the Sawzall, and Lincoln for making the welder that I used? No, in that example, I would have used those tools for an illegal activity, but it is not the responsibility of the manufacturer to make sure their tools can't be used for that.
Increasing EGR on the highway is a common method of tuning for better fuel mileage, and is something I have done before. Also both EGR and EVAP will often need to be adjusted for a cam swap, since a more aggressive cam with the same EGR flow could lead to drivability issues with the factory settings, so a tuner has very legitimate reasons to need to access those parameters. Again, having a "turn your emissions controls off" button is clearly a "defeat device", however I think there is a good argument for leaving the functionality to change them there, and if someone uses that functionality to zero everything out and turn things off completely, that is on them, and just as SCT is not liable if you change things in the tune that cause you to blow your motor, they also should not be liable for you violating federal law by tampering with emissions devices.
We don’t yet know the specifics of what will change besides the ability to turn them on or off, that could just mean they are removed under system switches. They may remove EGR type from there but the tables could remain.

Agree though. What I have always hated about bureaucracy is the rule makers have zero to vague at best concept on how the things they’re regulating work. I’ve been stewing over this and the whole notion of defeat device too, the defeat device is the OEM PCM. I’m not suggesting automobile manufacturers be held liable for having flash compatible PCMs(which, ironically, is mandated) but the fact that they can be altered should be on them as much or more than on these small aftermarket companies with software to access it. A handheld tuner and advantage III software isn’t “hacking” the PCM as I’m sure the EPA thinks they do, they work exactly how dealership tools work for software updates, but more limited.

Also unlike a literal defeat device such as an MIL eliminator that fakes a signal to the computer to seem as though the rear cats are there and working, when you turn off EGR and rear o2s through a flash, those monitors will be flagged as off in an OBDII emissions test when they check, and they will fail you for it here if they expect to see those monitors active. There’s no shady trickery to it like true defeat devices like VW got busted for.

-Matt
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 12:45 AM
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wow!! I just read this and maybe explains why I haven't gotten any answer from SCT about my tuning software.

I have jumped through the hoops and taken the courses and was told I would be getting a custom download based on my legal parameters soon.
I told them this was a Road Atlanta car .. which it will be on the track and does not require emissions anyway.

I bought the PRP from Lasota Racing 6-15-19 and got the dongle from SCT 4 days later.

Should I contact Don since I bought it through him ??

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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 05:35 PM
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Don sent the info I needed to straiten this out.
He is one stand up guy.
Glad to do business with him.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 02:34 PM
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The thing is, granted Track only cars are exempt, but the "off Road Use Only" thing, that was their nail in the coffin because even in off road, you are still required under federal law to have all emission systems on the vehicle and working.....USFS even carries "guides" (small book with color pics) of how to ID illegal engines, missing/etc. emissions equipment, etc....nothing new, been doing that for 20 years...….
all I can say is any company even going back 10+ years ago that though "off road only" was their excuse.....was nothing more than greed....selling devices they new were illegal......kinda like a high school kid who is going to show how much smarter they are as compared to their parents!
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 09:10 AM
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Um, no. The EPA tried to sneak that language into an update of the laws regulating heavy duty trucks a few years ago. They also tried to claim that it was always this way, and they were just clarifying the language. SEMA fought them on it, and when it became clear that they had acted improperly and would lose in court, the EPA dropped the issue. It is not now, nor has it ever been illegal to do whatever you want to any emissions device on a race only vehicle. The second you try to drive that vehicle on the street though, then you are in trouble.
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old Today, 12:37 PM
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I'm glad I only deal with MHD now. Bimmer life, long gone are all my SCT goodies.
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old Today, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
Um, no. The EPA tried to sneak that language into an update of the laws regulating heavy duty trucks a few years ago. They also tried to claim that it was always this way, and they were just clarifying the language. SEMA fought them on it, and when it became clear that they had acted improperly and would lose in court, the EPA dropped the issue. It is not now, nor has it ever been illegal to do whatever you want to any emissions device on a race only vehicle. The second you try to drive that vehicle on the street though, then you are in trouble.
It's been about 20 years ago now since I worked in the and near the state & national forests.....but just before I left, every ranger (including fish & game) had a book (color pictures and everything) and a formal briefing on smog equipment (vehicles) ….and I can recall in the 1st 2 weeks alone, if the drivers were nice and honest & cooperative, they just loaded their vehicles up and left, if they agrued or tried to BS...the vehicles were impounded on the spot.....saw this myself!
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