Neutral switch on M5R2 and probable spark advance problem. - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 12:19 AM Thread Starter
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Neutral switch on M5R2 and probable spark advance problem.

I finished a 5-speed swap on my 94 a few months ago (M5R2).

I bought a handheld tuner after swap (SCT X3) and uploaded a "mailed" tune from Don Lasotta to avoid having any trouble codes from the EEC-V trying to "see" the 4R70W, no longer there.

Car ran acceptably well right from the beginning, started right up, idled right, no codes, no cel light but a few days after initial test drives, the neutral safety switch on the gearbox died on me (blocking power to the starter) ... so I had to jump the terminals temporarily (or so I believed)

I have enjoyed driving the car slowly in town (saving ga$$$, of course) but when I stump on it for fun, I somehow think "oomph" and performance are just "not there" (or so I feel) I don't know if it's the 4.6's nature or something is amiss.

I read somewhere that the EEC-V changes the spark advance when it sees the transmission in "neutral" (which totally makes sense to me) but the damn neutral switch is toast and still jumped because I haven't been able to find a mother$#%& replacement in any local car-part stores, not even Autozone, which -even with cheapo parts- comes to the rescue in these instances. (I live in Cancun)

I need to find out whether any of you know FOR SURE if having the neutral switch permanently "jumped" might be fooling the ECU into keeping spark advance fixed and, thus, affecting torque this way.

I wrote about this very SPECIFIC doubt to Don a few days after the tune was uploaded but I received a very GENERIC answer like: "You should be good to go" ... I'm not the kind of guy who likes to beg when I pay for a service or someone who settles for generic stuff like that, unfortunately, he was clear about "helping" with the tune for 30 days after the initial purchase and that is long past due because right after the swap, engine developed a bad oil shortage and I had to park the car for several weeks until I gathered enough will and energy to remove the whole front suspension to remove the pan and clean the oil pick up tube (it was completely clogged).

Any SOLID knowledge about the correlation between spark advance tables and this switch will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 01:13 AM
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I would data log it to see what it's doing; post it up, we might be able to help.

I can't find anything in the 4.6l MBE2 file that changes due to the NSS; nothing references it at all that I can find.

Air temp, water temp, and TPS are about it.

Which EEC are you running?
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
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Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 01:24 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I would data log it to see what it's doing; post it up, we might be able to help.

I can't find anything in the 4.6l MBE2 file that changes due to the NSS; nothing references it at all that I can find.

Air temp, water temp, and TPS are about it.

Which EEC are you running?
It's the stock EEC-V

I will sure do that... I just need to get familiar with the process as I've never done that before, but I suppose it's no rocket science.

Will do it tomorrow and upload somethin'

Thanks for the response.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 02:11 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboedmav View Post
It's the stock EEC-V

I will sure do that... I just need to get familiar with the process as I've never done that before, but I suppose it's no rocket science.

Will do it tomorrow and upload somethin'

Thanks for the response.

There's a sticky in the eec forum; GM did a nice howto.

That's where I always start; these cars have so much going on, it's not like the old days.

Check your TPS, it may have issues, and it can cause all kinds of weird stuff.

It should be just below 1V at idle, and increase Smoothly as you open the throttle.

You can check it with a voltmeter, key on, engine off; or datalog it.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-11-2019, 01:08 PM
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It sounds like what mine was doing after my manual trans swap, it wasn’t my wiring causing it either. The problem was the max spark at low load table. For whatever reason off of idle the PCM would use this table which is 15° advance across the board and performance was terrible. I bet if you datalogged spark source, this is the table it’s using in your case too.

Contact Don and have him set all the values to max. The PCM picks the spark table with the lowest number, so maxing it to 60 this will take this out of the equation.
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Last edited by XR7-4.6; 05-11-2019 at 01:25 PM.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by XR7-4.6 View Post
It sounds like what mine was doing after my manual trans swap, it wasn’t my wiring causing it either. The problem was the max spark at low load table. For whatever reason off of idle the PCM would use this table which is 15° advance across the board and performance was terrible. I bet if you datalogged spark source, this is the table it’s using in your case too.

Contact Don and have him set all the values to max. The PCM picks the spark table with the lowest number, so maxing it to 60 this will take this out of the equation.
I asked Don to send me a second tune with "options enabled" after initial test drives and he did right away ... I Haven't uploaded it yet, though. Same tune as the first, only the options were enabled on this one and they weren't before.

I know spark advance is within the options I can tinker with.

First of all, I will datalog with current tune (as Don sent it) and, after that, I will start the learning curve with altering spark advance a little here and there...

Did you change spark advance options yourself or you had a tuner do it for you, XR7-4.6?

Last edited by Turboedmav; 05-12-2019 at 05:13 PM.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:50 PM
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When you make the data logs make sure to select "spark source" as well, that will tell Don what table it's using(which I bet is the low load table).

I did it myself through pro-racer, but these are the same tables in dealer level software
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-Matt
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 08:38 PM
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Q: How did you get the M5R2 to mate to your 4.6 Modular engine?
Did you get one of the "bastard blocks" (91-92 4.6L block) that had the windsor bolt pattern?


Or, did you source a different manual transmission (T5 I guess)

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 10:26 PM
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Gunn, Read this thread:

https://forums.tccoa.com/13-drive-tr...peed-swap.html



There's always a way.
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Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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Truth Isn't Truth. - Rudy Giuliani, 2018 Award winner, “Most Outrageous Diversion” by MSNBC for this quote
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Q: How did you get the M5R2 to mate to your 4.6 Modular engine?
Did you get one of the "bastard blocks" (91-92 4.6L block) that had the windsor bolt pattern?


Or, did you source a different manual transmission (T5 I guess)
I used an M5R2 from a SC. I had to do a lot of adaptin' and, to be honest, I guess it's too much trouble for someone who wants the car on the road fast. I just did it cause I wanted to accept the challenge to myself.

You have to (among other minor things):

cut a small, non-structural part of the block
modify the starter (half 4.6, half 3.8 starter and get a 10-tooth gear as neither the 3.8 or the 4.6 will work)
get a SC driveshaft... the one on 4.6 autos has a beefier yoke and won't fit in the M5R2
Shorten the driveshaft
Enlarge two holes in the 5 speed to 5/8 with good precision
Get a tune and upload it
Figure out your wiring and work out any electric gremlins that might arise from the swap
Fabricate two angle-iron brackets for the lowermost holes on the 5 speed
Fabricate a plate from 1/2" flat stock to relocate the shifter (it'll end up too close to the dash)

If you are the kind of guy who has fun tinkering and solving mechanical problems, this is one hell of a "fun" project but if you're not that much into headaches, better mate a TR3650 from a 2005-10 Mustang to your 4.6 and be done with it...

If you do get into this, let me know, I might be able to help.
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Last edited by Turboedmav; 05-13-2019 at 09:50 PM.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Turboedmav View Post
I used an M5R2 from a SC. I had to do a lot of adaptin' and, to be honest, I guess it's too much trouble for someone who wants the car on the road fast. I just did it cause I wanted to accept the challenge to myself.

You have to (among other minor things):

cut a small, non-structural part of the block
modify the starter (half 4.6, half 3.8 starter and get a 10-tooth gear as neither the 3.8 or the 4.6 will work)
get a SC driveshaft... the one on 4.6 autos has a beefier yoke and won't fit in the M5R2
Shorten the driveshaft
Enlarge two holes in the 5 speed to 5/8 with good precision
Get a tune and upload it
Figure out your wiring and work out any electric gremlins that might arise from the swap
Fabricate two angle-iron brackets for the lowermost holes on the 5 speed
Fabricate a plate from 1/2" flat stock to relocate the shifter (it'll end up too close to the dash)

If you are the kind of guy who has fun tinkering and solving mechanical problems, this is one hell of a "fun" project but if you're not that much into headaches, better mate a TR3650 from a 2005-10 Mustang to your 4.6 and be done with it...

If you do get into this, let me know, I might be able to help.
Huh, I totally missed this thread. Fascinating read, turboedmav.
I already have a M5R2 mated to my 302 V8 (much easier than your cut the block strategy).

Perhaps the thing that I find most interesting is that you made a hybrid starter for your solution (half 4.6 and half 3.8).

I dunno if its the heat and/or dusty conditions of Baja but almost every v8 powered vehicle I saw in the Mexican 1000 race had a spare alternator and starter mounted on brackets welded to the cage of their race trucks/buggies.

Considering you cannot easily pop out and get a hybrid starter from Autozone, I wonder if it might be worth your effort to go ahead and build a spare (just in case yours dies). Of course, I don't know how dusty things are in Cancun (or if you have another daily driver vehicle) so this might not be an issue for you.


-g
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