Mercon V in a 1994 4.6? - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
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Mercon V in a 1994 4.6?

Can I put Mercon V in my 1994 4.6? Or is this just for the later cars?

I currently have Dexron III plus additive, and after 4yrs and 50k miles, its just starting to shudder slightly in 3rd and 4th, normally when changing into 4th, or kicking down in 4th. My transmission shop want to use the same again, but I've found a supplier for Mercon V (which is ver hard to get hold of in the UK), and would prefer him to use this.

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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 08:26 AM
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Yes, you can use Mercon V, and you should use it if you can get it.

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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, thats what I thought. They sell it in 5 litre tins, so I suppose I'm going to need 3 tins (1litre = 1.06 quarts). To give you an idea of what its like over here, its working out to the equivalent of about $12 per litre plus sales tax and delivery.

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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 08:54 AM Thread Starter
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I just spoke to my trans shop to make sure he was ok to fit fluid that I supply, and to clarify the amount he would need. He said that it was not possible to drain the torque converter, so I would only need about 8 litres, yet in the tech articles on here it says you just need to take the rubber bung out of the bellhousing, align the drain hole in the TC with the bellhousing opening, take the screw out and you can drain it. is that correct? Its not an early/late TC thing is it?

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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 11:08 AM
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Some TC's do and dont have the drain plug..
he could be right, or very wrong..

my stock mark 8 TC has a drain plug, dunno if you Tbird does.

only ONE way to find out..
You should go up there and have them pull the inspection plug from the bellhousing and turn the TC around until you verify the presense or lack of a drain plug.

this wouldn't be the first time TCCOA knew more than a trans shop tech.

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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XLRVIII View Post
Some TC's do and dont have the drain plug..
he could be right, or very wrong..

my stock mark 8 TC has a drain plug, dunno if you Tbird does.

only ONE way to find out..
You should go up there and have them pull the inspection plug from the bellhousing and turn the TC around until you verify the presense or lack of a drain plug.

this wouldn't be the first time TCCOA knew more than a trans shop tech.
Yes, I could believe that!

If there turns out not to be a drain plug, and the fluid in the TC (dexron III + additive) has to stay in there, if he then refills it with Mercon V will that "mix" ok, or would I be better sticking with the existing dexron?

This is where I'm planning to get the Mercon:

http://americanautobarn.com/store/in...oducts_id=1204

I was originally concerned that it said "Required for late model FORD Automatic transmissions. Use where MERCON V is specified". Also, the bit in the TCCOA tech article about the trans seals being upgraded on the later transmissions.

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Last edited by Andy625UK; 10-30-2009 at 11:28 AM.
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-30-2009, 09:08 PM
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There's been a drain plug in every one I've personally seen; 5 so far, 2x '02, 2x '96, 1x Dirtyd0g.

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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-31-2009, 06:18 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmm, I think I may use a different trans specialist....

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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-31-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy625UK View Post
Hmmm, I think I may use a different trans specialist....
lol. Anyway, this guy Andy625UK(you) should be specialist a'nuff to do a simple change to MerconV. All answers are here.


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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-31-2009, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy625UK View Post
Yes, I could believe that!

If there turns out not to be a drain plug, and the fluid in the TC (dexron III + additive) has to stay in there, if he then refills it with Mercon V will that "mix" ok, or would I be better sticking with the existing dexron?

This is where I'm planning to get the Mercon:

http://americanautobarn.com/store/in...oducts_id=1204

I was originally concerned that it said "Required for late model FORD Automatic transmissions. Use where MERCON V is specified". Also, the bit in the TCCOA tech article about the trans seals being upgraded on the later transmissions.
It is now specified for almost all fords that had Mercon. It is double specified for the 4R70W, there is a TSB suggesting it for over a decade.

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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 10-31-2009, 11:13 PM
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And if by some strange quirk, there is no drain plug ..... disconnect the top transmission line at the radiator, put a hose bib end in place, attach hose, put other end in big bucket, start and watch and when fluid stops coming out, turn off.

You really would be best served if you can get a complete change in, all 12 qts.

My '95 had the plug as did my '98 and '00 CVPIs (I'm pretty sure my '01 Merc does, but I know that we added plugs to some later cars and my '01 might have been one we added a plug to, I help a buddy at his shop some times when OD). My issued '06 CVPI does not have a TC drain.

If not already done, now iis a good time to add an additional cooler in front of lower radiator, plumb it between the top radiator fitting and the return line back to trans. I used several clamps.

$180 for enough to change fluid, that's just obsene.

Yes, use Mercon V. These 4R70W transmission's TCs slip variably according to commands from the PCM, and when they first came out, Ford went through several formulations of Mercon trying to solve shudder while allowing the clutch facings to slip smoothly upon command (please excuse my crude description). Mercon V is the result of those several years worth of trials and as far as I know, now recommended for all 4R70W transmissions.

Got my '95 back in May with 52,xxx miles and first drive, it shuddered really badly at somewhere near 35-45 under light throttle like you describe, only bad, and the "wife unit" thought I'ld throwed good money away. Picked up 14 quarts Mercon V (I bravely told wife "no big thing, probably original fluid, and I knew a complete change took 12 in the police cars, I got extra for the cooler, used 13 total) and a filter kit and aux cooler kit, changed it all out, it never hinted at shudder again, not for a moment. Difference was like night and day.

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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 04:55 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalPistol View Post
And if by some strange quirk, there is no drain plug ..... disconnect the top transmission line at the radiator, put a hose bib end in place, attach hose, put other end in big bucket, start and watch and when fluid stops coming out, turn off. .....

Got my '95 back in May with 52,xxx miles and first drive, it shuddered really badly at somewhere near 35-45 under light throttle like you describe, only bad, and the "wife unit" thought I'ld throwed good money away. Picked up 14 quarts Mercon V (I bravely told wife "no big thing, probably original fluid, and I knew a complete change took 12 in the police cars, I got extra for the cooler, used 13 total) and a filter kit and aux cooler kit, changed it all out, it never hinted at shudder again, not for a moment. Difference was like night and day.
Sorry for not replying to this sooner. Thanks for the info. Its very reassuring that you've had the same problem as I have, and that the fluid change has fixed it.

I have the car booked in for Friday, and the fluid arrived today. I was a bit concerned that although it is in a Ford branded bottle, it doesn't actually say "Mercon" on the outside of the bottle.

The numbers that are on there are:
E-M5
8000 046
A975X M2 C202BB
WSS-M2C202-B

I think the last one means that it is Mercon, but doesn't it normally say "Mercon" on the bottle???

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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 08:55 AM
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Well, i bought a case of it from my local Ford dealer, up here in Canada. It states in big letters on each bottle............Motorcraft Mercon V Automatic Transmission Fluid.

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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy625UK View Post
Sorry for not replying to this sooner. Thanks for the info. Its very reassuring that you've had the same problem as I have, and that the fluid change has fixed it.

I have the car booked in for Friday, and the fluid arrived today. I was a bit concerned that although it is in a Ford branded bottle, it doesn't actually say "Mercon" on the outside of the bottle.

The numbers that are on there are:
E-M5
8000 046
A975X M2 C202BB
WSS-M2C202-B

I think the last one means that it is Mercon, but doesn't it normally say "Mercon" on the bottle???
In the UK Mercon V fluid is recognized under the Ford Europe spec of: wss-m2c202-b

You got the right stuff!!

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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 10:31 AM
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what about ATF Flushes? The fluid in the TC should also get exchanged with an ATF flushes too, right?
(No need to manually DRAIN the tc with flushes...)
This is what one Ford dealer told me - is this correct?

(btw, i had to print out the TSB and shove it under the service advisor of the local Ford dearler to make him believe that Mercon V is approved for all MN12 cars now, esp 1994 and up)

time for ATF change is coming up for me, too...
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 10:43 AM
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what about ATF Flushes? The fluid in the TC should also get exchanged with an ATF flushes too, right?
(No need to manually DRAIN the tc with flushes...)
This is what one Ford dealer told me - is this correct?

(btw, i had to print out the TSB and shove it under the service advisor of the local Ford dearler to make him believe that Mercon V is approved for all MN12 cars now, esp 1994 and up)

time for ATF change is coming up for me, too...

that is correct, but it totally ignores the most overlooked part on a car.
the transmission filter.
A flush will stir up all the crap in your pan and deposit it into the filter, which will not be a good thing for your trans.

now.. a flush, followed by a filter change + 6 qrts of fluid lost when dropping the pan wouldn't be a bad idea.
But..JUST a flush with no filter change is BAD BAD BAD..

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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 10:52 AM
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Hmmm.... I think my last 2 atf changes have been flushes...wonder if it's time for a filter change, too.... what do you think? my atf filter might have about 30k miles on it...perhaps more....idk for sure...

(when i got my 97 bird with 72k miles, it also had a baaad shudder shifting to 4th and also betw. 35-45 mph, and a ATF change with Mercon-V cured it, and never came back...but just to be on safe side, I have been getting atf flushed more often than recommended...., and so far, seems to have worked... )

but maybe this time i should ask my indie Ford place to do a manual drain/fill INCLUDING the TC, and change the filter also...then next time i can go back to a flush ???

if i do regular drain/fill incl TC with filter change, then i don't need a flush, right?
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 11:42 AM
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Hmmm.... I think my last 2 atf changes have been flushes...wonder if it's time for a filter change, too.... what do you think? my atf filter might have about 30k miles on it...perhaps more....idk for sure...

(when i got my 97 bird with 72k miles, it also had a baaad shudder shifting to 4th and also betw. 35-45 mph, and a ATF change with Mercon-V cured it, and never came back...but just to be on safe side, I have been getting atf flushed more often than recommended...., and so far, seems to have worked... )

but maybe this time i should ask my indie Ford place to do a manual drain/fill INCLUDING the TC, and change the filter also...then next time i can go back to a flush ???

if i do regular drain/fill incl TC with filter change, then i don't need a flush, right?

Change your filter any time you change the fluid. You wouldn't change your oil without changing that filter, would you?

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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 12:03 PM
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makes sense... i guess i am gonna get a complete drain/fill (incl. TC, hopefully these people know how to drain the TC ...otherwise i am forced to get both flush AND drain/fill !!) and filter change, and not a flush...

Thanks.
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-10-2009, 12:29 PM
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I would definitely replace the filter when changing the tranny fluid. The filter itself will cost about 15 bucks and will help capture all of the clutch material that may still be hiding somewhere in the transmission. If you have access to basic tools (I think the pan it held on by 14 8mm bolts and the TC plug by a 9 or 10mm) and a bucket to capture your fluid, I would go about changing over to Mercon V yourself. In addition to saving money, you get another chance to crawl under your car and do a quick visual inspection.

Also, I recently scored a good deal on a 95 Cougar with 99K because it had a shuddering problem just like you described. Now, after consulting a Ford service manager and TCCoA, I replacing the fluid with Mercon V and have a fine machine that should be good to go for another 100K. A little routine maintenance will go a long way on any car.
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-11-2009, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by machausta View Post
In the UK Mercon V fluid is recognized under the Ford Europe spec of: wss-m2c202-b

You got the right stuff!!
Thanks, thats good to know!

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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 08:42 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, my car is in having tranny fluid changed today. Just had a call from the garage, saying that they've drained tranny and converter, refilled with the mercon fluid I gave them, and he reckons that it shuddered twice when he drove it on a test drive. They think that it may need a tc change.

I find this weird as even with the old dextron+additive fluid in there (40k miles old) it only used to shudder once/twice a day. I haven't tried it myself as I'm away on a trip today. I'll get it back in the morning though. Surely the ford fluid can't have made it worse?!?!?

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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 08:53 AM
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It usually takes some time for the shudder to go away,.. give it 100-300 miles of driving before you go any further.

Also, during this 100-300 miles try to stay out of the situations that cause the shudder.
Accelerate steadily, dont change throttle angles quickly which causes the TC to unlock and lock.

you might not need a TC, drive it for a week or so...

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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That sounds like a plan. Its costing me quite a lot just to change the fluid. I'd accepted the possibility that it might not make much difference, but I didn't think it would be any worse. I hadn't planned to fork out for a rebuild or new tc, not at the moment anyway.

I suppose it may take a few miles for the new fluid to coat the friction bands before it settles down? From what Crystalpistol said though, I was expecting an instant fix.

I'll try it tomorrow and see what its like. I just remember when I first got the car 4.5yrs ago and it shuddered really really badly. I was scared to drive it, especially on the motorway (freeway). Thought it was gonna shake itself to pieces.

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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 10:49 AM
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I also think it's logical that it akes a few 100 miles for the new fluid to make the shudder go away and get enough circulation...although in my case the shudder went away almost immediately. but mine is a 1997 and had only 72k miles - idk if that makes a difference...

since getting rid of the shudder at 72k miles, I have been making sure that my ATF is changed about every 20k miles, with Mercon V and that had been working great so far - car now at 134k miles.

I have also been very careful about avoiding unnecessary 3-4 and 4-3 shifts as much as I can, like driving with o/d off whenever i feel like i am going to change speeds a lot between 30-45 mph ...i only let the car shift to o/d only when I am sure that I can drive over 45 mph for longer periods ...

as a last resort, I have heard some people using a Lubeguard product called "Dr. Tranny anti-shudder" or something like that - a red tube that only transmission work shops normally carry - that seems to have better reputations than most other products, but i never needed anything other than ATF flushes every 20k miles with Merc-V, so hopefully i will get a lot of miles out of this 4R70W.

Last edited by ortbird; 11-13-2009 at 10:55 AM.
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 12:30 PM
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When i bought mine, it had the shudder, did the jmod, upgraded accumulators, mercon fluid, filter and the deeper pan. Shudder showed up a couple more times and has never been present since. Have put at least another 10k on it since then, working great.

95 Thunderbird LX 4.6
K&N cold air intake. True 2 1/4" duals, Xenon GFX. 3:55 Trac loc. Beefier trans, 2800 stall convertor, MkV111 aluminum driveshaft.
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-13-2009, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Southampton, England
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Posts: 926
Garage
Thanks guys, I'll get my car back in the morning, so I'll know more then. I hope that it goes away after a few miles, otherwise I'm gonna have to fork out for a big bill $$$$$$$$$$$'s NOT what I was hoping for at the moment.

"...put me on a highway, show me a sign, and take it to the limit one more time"

The Eagles
1975

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2149821

RIP Dutch T-Bird (Robert Hendriks) 1970-2012 No doubt looking down on us from his low-riding T-Bird in the sky.
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 09:22 AM
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Well Andy, how did it do after the change?

A fine pair ... ... and whatever you do, Have a Safe Trip!
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 09:33 AM
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Cool

When I bought my '94 (in 2002), it had 149,000 miles on it. I was new to T'birds at the time, but I always wanted to get one, especially a '94-'95, just because I like the front better (just me). After having it a few months, I noticed it started the shuddering on me. So I had it serviced, flushed, the whole scpiel. The transmission shop owner (who I knew) told me about the change and recommended an external cooler. But I couldn't afford the cooler at the time. And then I had a B+M shift plus installed. I didn't know about the horror stories at the time, but I've not had a problem with it yet . It "almost" toke care of the shudder. Once in a great while it would still shudder. One day (about two years later), it started "popping" out of gear when I hit it out of the hole. I took it to the shop. He replaced the range sensor, flushed and serviced it, and this time I had a plate style external cooler installed. It has been working flawlessly since. This spring will be time for it's next service. So I would surely add the external cooler if you can.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 11-14-2009, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Southampton, England
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Garage
Ok, I picked the car up this morning, and when driving home it was definitely still shuddering. I think it probably is slightly worse than before it went in. Its shuddering as it goes into lockup about 50% of the time, and also when you kick-down and it comes out of lockup (again about 50% of the time).

I'm going to drive it around next week and see if things improve at all.

The garage said that a recon TC may fix it, but it could be something in the main box thats causing the TC to shudder. They said a recon TC would be about £500 ($750) fitted, and a tranny rebuild and recon TC would be about £12-1500 ($18-2200).

I've had a tranny rebuilt by them, for another car I owned a few years ago, and they do do a good job. My worry is that if it turns out I need a recon TC, and they get my existing TC reconditioned, that it wouldn't be as good as a DirtyDog TC. I know I could get one shipped over, but at approx £500($750) shipped, it works out about double what they would charge to recon mine.

We'll see how it goes next week. I'm still clinging to the distant hope that it will miraculously cure itself.....

"...put me on a highway, show me a sign, and take it to the limit one more time"

The Eagles
1975

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2149821

RIP Dutch T-Bird (Robert Hendriks) 1970-2012 No doubt looking down on us from his low-riding T-Bird in the sky.
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