Do I *need* a new converter if I swap in 4.10 gears? - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-09-2012, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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Do I *need* a new converter if I swap in 4.10 gears?

So I've been thinking about gears lately. I was originally thinking of 3.73 gears just to save some money, but from reading here I know I shouldn't fear the gear.

I'm aware that I'll need a new driveshaft, rear lube mod, tune, speedcal, etc. for 4.10 gears. That's fine. But my question is this, is it necessary to change the torque converter for 4.10 gears if my car is otherwise 100% stock (engine/tranny)? This is 100% a street car, I don't go on the track, and I rarely go on the highway even.

I don't really want to swap in a new converter and from what I understand I wouldn't need one if I put in 3.73 gears. I will be doing a basic mild JMod soon, I'll be taking my car out of storage hopefully next week.

I still don't totally understand converters but from some of the reading I've done it says you want it to stall at 700 rpm or so below the peak output of the engine. Well, since my engine is bone stock and I don't have plans to do anything major to it, then it sounds like I won't actually need a different converter. And apparently the stock converter is good to 5200rpm or so. It's not a race car and I only bag on it a bit anyway.

Thoughts, opinions? Thx.

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post #2 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-09-2012, 07:01 PM
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Need? No.

Stall more or less means you skip the lower RPM range of the engine to get it into the powerband quicker. The higher your powerband, the higher you want your stall. With a stock converter you'll have to accelerate through the weaker RPM range before you get into the powerband, which may take 2 or 3 seconds longer.

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post #3 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-09-2012, 07:02 PM
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post #4 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thx. Brandon, from your mods list it looks like you have 3.73 gears, did you have the stock converter in when you swapped gears or did you have the Mustang converter in before?

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post #5 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanny View Post
And apparently the stock converter is good to 5200rpm or so.
Not necessarily true. FWIW, I was spinning mine to just under 5800 RPM quite often with no ill effects. I just didn't stay there for long though! I have a tune and 3.73's. I ran this for just over 3 months.

If you want a good converter and you're not looking to spend a whole lot, get a Marauder/MKVIII converter. I like mine so far. Makes doing burn outs, aka stupid stuff, a lot easier. lol

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post #6 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry W.
While we are talking about torque converters, there is another advantage of using the 11" converter over a 12" converter. The 12" converter is only good to around 5400 RPM maximum. Beyond this, the torque converter starts to balloon. This is where the converter actually grows out along the axis that it is spinning on. If it balloons enough, a thrust washer will fall out, causing catastrophic failure. This is why most of your rev limiters are set as low as they are, to protect against this problem. The 11" converter is good to 6500 RPM.
True. What he's saying here is that it starts to balloon past that point. Enough ballooning caused by enough time spent past that point will cause the failure he speaks of, it won't happen the second you hit 5500 or 5450 etc for the first time. A mildly modified mod motor isn't making more power above 5400 anyway, IMHO it's not worth the risks of spinning your stock converter that fast for little to no gain.

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post #7 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by theterminator93 View Post
True. What he's saying here is that it starts to balloon past that point. Enough ballooning caused by enough time spent past that point will cause the failure he speaks of, it won't happen the second you hit 5500 or 5450 etc for the first time. A mildly modified mod motor isn't making more power above 5400 anyway, IMHO it's not worth the risks of spinning your stock converter that fast for little to no gain.
I know that! haha This is why I went to the smaller 11 inch converter. The stock 12 inch was a piece of junk, it was too tight for performance. I will say though, it was reliable. It survived me, somehow.

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post #8 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 10:23 AM
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Yeah, I more or less wanted to clarify that for any potential noobs reading this post who might think "Oh, well it's okay to spin my stock converter to 5800 RPM!" then a few months later their converter explodes and takes the trans and engine with it.

-Brandon
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post #9 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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Brandon, what T.C. did you have in your car when you put the 3.73's in?

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post #10 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 02:33 PM
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I had the stock converter when I put the 3.73s in over the winter of 10-11, then I installed the GT TC a couple months before winter 11-12.

-Brandon
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post #11 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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Did you notice quite a difference? If I understand right if I keep the stock converter it'll just make the car a bit slower and I better keep the RPMs below 5800 rpm :-) And just for short bursts at a time :-)

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post #12 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 03:04 PM
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Well, the difference was pretty noticeable but it wasn't as much as I was anticipating. Same goes for the converter, I noticed a difference but it wasn't super astounding. Now, with both together... that was quite a difference. I'm eagerly anticipating what 3500 stall feels like as an upgrade from 2600 or whatever the GT/Mark 8 converter stalls at. What I've been told/have read tells me it will behave more or less normally at street throttles, but when you get on the gas it really bares its teeth. I guess I'll know in 6 weeks or so.

Now, with all that said, the gears/converter individually were more a noticeable difference than either the PI intake or PI cams were.

-Brandon
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post #13 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 03:10 PM
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You are forgetting a tuner. If you don't get one, you will be bouncing off of 75MPH (or so). You would need the tuner before you need the converter.

I am shifting up in the higher ranges with my stock converter and it hasn't failed me yet. The first guy that tuned my car had the shifts going all the way to 6000K, which is not reccomended. I do think there is something to be had in the 5500-5800 range. I have two programs on mine, one for driving to work and the other for fun. I tried the two one race and the other the next. I lost .3 with the race program.

What I am trying to say is, a converter is a nice compliment to your tuning and gears. I can't wait to get my Marauder converter installed with the JMOD.

-=James
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post #14 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanny View Post
Did you notice quite a difference? If I understand right if I keep the stock converter it'll just make the car a bit slower and I better keep the RPMs below 5800 rpm :-) And just for short bursts at a time :-)
Now, keep in mind, the tach isn't always accurate. Keep it 5600 indicated RPM and below.

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post #15 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 07:23 PM
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You need a tune if you put in 4.10 gears. Shift timing will be way off on the original tune. It isn't a upgrade it is a necessity and to get the speedometer right you need a speedcal or a dakota digital unit.
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post #16 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, I said in my first post I knew I'd need a tune and speedcal. From the looks of it the Dakota Digital SGI-5 is probably the better unit (easier to figure out).

Looks like I should plan on getting a Marauder / MK VIII converter for the long term, although it isn't *necessary* right away. The tune is a priority though after the gears are installed.

Boy it really is adding up to get 4.10 gears due to all the extras...

Gears $150
Gear install $ 300-ish?
Tuner $389
Driveshaft $100 (used MK VIII) or $475 (Dynotech)
Rear lube mod $95-120
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post #17 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 09:17 PM
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I would go with a SCT X3 tuner myself.

-=James
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post #18 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-10-2012, 09:22 PM
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I am not a fan of marauder converters on the 4.6 cars, but they work great for supercoupes. Look for 3800+ stall to get it going IMO.
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post #19 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 02:21 PM
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Got the mark8 trans and converter , already had 3.55 gears. The converter change made a Big positive change on the car
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post #20 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 03:56 PM
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Can we get an opinion from someone who has done a markVIII or marauder converter and then gone to a 3800+ stall unit? I know I am impartial because I like stall and lots of it.
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post #21 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe you can clarify something for me dirtyd0g. Does a higher stall mean the engine will rev up faster to that stall speed, like it "slips" under that rpm setting and locks up more at that RPM? Is that kind of how it works?

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post #22 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 04:49 PM
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Stall speed is the point at which with the transmission in gear and holding, your foot on the brakes and holding the engine cannot raise any more rpm until the rear tires rotate.
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post #23 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 05:04 PM
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Stall speed is the point at which with the transmission in gear and holding, your foot on the brakes and holding the engine cannot raise any more rpm until the rear tires rotate.
Alan
At some point, it gets interesting. I have a 2800 RPM stall converter, and the car still "crawls" when idling in gear. My buddy has a 5.0L Mustang that has a 3400 RPM stall and his car doesn't crawl. His acts like it doesn't want to move until you rev it.

DD, is that indicative of a poor converter? I saw you had pics in another thread where the vanes of the pump were ground down to increase stall and you said that is the WRONG way to do it - is that how my buddy's converter must be?

I guess what I am asking, is a high stall converter designed correctly still let the car move at idle, but will "flash" over 3000 when floored?

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post #24 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 05:43 PM
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Stall speed needs to match diameter. If you increase stall too much for that diameter converter it will become too inefficient and not pull at idle. The 5500 unit in my car still moves at idle.
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post #25 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 06:41 PM
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Stall speed needs to match diameter. If you increase stall too much for that diameter converter it will become too inefficient and not pull at idle. The 5500 unit in my car still moves at idle.
Alan
Ok, that totally makes sense. So, basically there are limits (if you want efficiency) to how high of stall with regards to diameter. How high do you recommend on an 11.25" converter before you move to a smaller one? What about a 10.5/10"? 9.5"?

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post #26 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 07:44 PM
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It can't be much higher than 3000, he said I had to upgrade to a 10" to get to the 3500 he recommended.

-Brandon
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post #27 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 07:46 PM
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It can't be much higher than 3000, he said I had to upgrade to a 10" to get to the 3500 he recommended.
The 2800 I have is a 10.5", I believe.

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post #28 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 08:01 PM
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Efficient limits of common converters without taking consideration for torque inpout, highr torque input will result in higher stall.
12 inch-2200-2400
11.25 inch 2800-3000
10.25 inch 3600-3800
9.5 inch 4000-4200
9 inch (opel referred to industrially as 8 inch) 5300-5500
if you exceed those numbers using those cores you will get high stall with poor throttle response, excessive heat and slushy operation.
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post #29 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtyd0g View Post
Efficient limits of common converters without taking consideration for torque inpout, highr torque input will result in higher stall.
12 inch-2200-2400
11.25 inch 2800-3000
10.25 inch 3600-3800
9.5 inch 4000-4200
9 inch (opel referred to industrially as 8 inch) 5300-5500
if you exceed those numbers using those cores you will get high stall with poor throttle response, excessive heat and slushy operation.
Alan
Now THAT is some very useful information to have. Thanks Alan.

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post #30 of 88 (permalink) Old 03-11-2012, 08:55 PM
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Now THAT is some very useful information to have. Thanks Alan.
+1 Thanks Alan, I'll be adding that to my notes

~Rick

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