Did Reverse at 65mph murder my trans? - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-07-2015, 09:47 PM Thread Starter
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Did Reverse at 65mph murder my trans?

Well I never thought THIS would ever happen...like I mean never at all. Was taught by a friend who's almost done with his college automotive courses to shift to Neutral when I go up exit ramps leaving the highways and interstate roads, as well as when going down big hills. He claims it saves gas a little bit and he knows I have a small leak so I need to save every drop of 87 octane I can. Today at 65mph I firmly put the shifter into Neutral and coasted up the ramp to the stop light, then the car jerked a tiny bit before it literally went to Reverse on it's own AT 65 MILES PER HOUR

The car sounded like it "screamed in pain" for a second before the engine died and it coasted up to a stop at the road side. I restarted in Park, and it appears to drive in every selectable gear I have.

What's the least amount of damage, most commonly broken part in this situation, and some tell-tale signs to look/hear/feel for in the event the damage shows up later on? This all happened in about 2 seconds flat before I stopped the car and restarted it. And no I don't coast in Neutral anymore lol.

Car is a '94 Cougar 4.6l 2v w/4R70W
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-07-2015, 10:30 PM
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Sorry this happened to you.
Not that this will help you but instead of listening to a guy who hasn't even graduated from his "automotive courses" (which sounds more like a jr college curriculum than something say an automotive engr would have taken), here's what I found from google:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-fuel-economy/

If you are really that worried about what could have been damaged, you might consider draining and refilling your transmission's ATF.
1) You can then see if there are any metal bits attached to the magnetic drain plug.
2) You can take a sample and send it to blackstone for testing.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/transmission.php

In your shoes, I wouldn't worry about it nor would I waste any money for testing and/or ATF D&F unless that maintenance was overdue anyway. To me, it's like a staring at an EKG of your pet cat. Even if you did see something on there, what are you going to do about it? Spend $$$ to fix something if the cat is acting normal? Most likely (in the case of a cat), logic would dictate that leave it alone until it gets sick and then you'll consider fixing it. If it dies and you get another one. In the case of your transmission, I suspect you will do the same. After all, why replace a transmission unless it really goes out?
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-07-2015, 10:31 PM
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Wow! Really?

IDK what that might have done to your trans. but shifting in to N on ramps and downhill is just plain ... unnecessary.

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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-07-2015, 10:42 PM
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 12:01 AM
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Sounds like you got lucky. My brother managed to shift his 98 F150 into reverse at 25~ish mph and it ended up costing him a rearend and a trans. Sheared teeth off the ring gear and I'm not really sure what broke in the trans. but anytime it was put into a gear it sounded like an impact gun hammering on a stuck bolt.

What I WOULD be more concerned about is the fuel leak personally. Won't do you any good to fix the trans. if the car goes up in flames. I hope you park it outside and away from any structures. I'll take a wild guess that it's leaking somewhere around the rear tire area?

These are highly engineered precision vehicles, the first step in diagnosing the problem is to strike the suspected offending part sharply and repeatedly with a blunt object, then re-test.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 12:30 AM
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I did that to my mom's then new 1995 Thunderbird when I was 16. Some retard told me you could shift an auto like a manual. So this retard tried it. I think ended up shifting all the way to R though I think I must have only been at the 1-2 WOT what ever speed that is. Lucky for me it just made a horrible noise and stalled. They put another 150,000 on it with no trouble. Poor car.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 08:57 AM
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As someone who has done that with C4, C5, C6, and AOD transmissions, I can say the only one that did anything but kill the engine was the C6. All of the cars lived long and through lots of further abuse. The C6 locked up the tires for quite awhile.

And coasting is never a good idea, nor is listening to anyone taking college automotive classes

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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trunk Monkey View Post
shifting in to N on ramps and downhill is just plain ... unnecessary.
This...

The engine turns off fuel to the injectors while coasting under many circumstances, as long as the torque converter stays locked (which it will when coasting unless you depress the brake pedal). If your goal is to save gas, drive normally. If you shift into neutral, it can't enter coasting fuel shut-off because the wheels can't drive the engine through the trans, and the engine basically idles against the unlocked converter. Your deceleration rate will decrease, and your fuel consumption will increase. So as you can see, CFSO not only reduces fuel consumption, but provides enhanced engine braking.

As for your transmission... The torque converter would have unlocked as soon as you put the shifter into N (and R, for that matter), then the clutches for the reverse set of gears would have started to apply. With an un J-modded trans, that would have been a somewhat "sluggish" process - so chances are, you simply stalled out the engine due to the 'cushion' of the unlocked torque converter against the "sluggish" application of the reverse clutches. If anything was to have broken as a result of this, it would have already. The fact that you weren't on the gas when it happened was also a blessing.

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 04:55 PM
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I wonder-- if it had been J-modded, would the lack of "sluggishness" have allowed further damage?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bangster View Post
As someone who has done that with C4, C5, C6, and AOD transmissions, I can say the only one that did anything but kill the engine was the C6. All of the cars lived long and through lots of further abuse. The C6 locked up the tires for quite awhile.
Do you do this experiment with all your cars..?

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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-08-2015, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
I wonder-- if it had been J-modded, would the lack of "sluggishness" have allowed further damage?
It could have (depending on the drill setting on the reverse hole) made for a faster engagement - which would have increased the impact needing to be absorbed by the drivetrain.

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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 09:23 AM
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Aside from everything else mentioned, keeping it in gear allows engine braking as you are going up an off-ramp.

Not to mention, it appears to be illegal to put your car in neutral in some locations.

Al

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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 11:50 AM
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Just do not do that again.

There are others on the road.

Fix your fuel leak.

There are others in the parking lot.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
I wonder-- if it had been J-modded, would the lack of "sluggishness" have allowed further damage?

Do you do this experiment with all your cars..?
I had a buddy in HS that used to throw the tranny on his old chevy station wagon in reverse and nail it, do a rockford turn while it's burning the tires in reverse, and then throwing it into low1 and burning out while driving the other direction.

Yes, he was nuts, but WTF!

It lasted the three years we were in HS, at least, lol.

Don't try that with a 4r70W, you be walking, I bet.

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
Not to mention, it appears to be illegal to put your car in neutral in some locations.

Al

It is illegal in the US period.

If all else fails get a bigger hammer!

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
I had a buddy in HS that used to throw the tranny on his old chevy station wagon in reverse and nail it, do a rockford turn while it's burning the tires in reverse, and then throwing it into low1 and burning out while driving the other direction.

Yes, he was nuts, but WTF!

It lasted the three years we were in HS, at least, lol.

Don't try that with a 4r70W, you be walking, I bet.
I've done a Rockford turn once or twice with my old 94 4R70w, I'm surprised that didn't kill it then and there, actually looked pretty good inside too after I removed and dismantled it.

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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urambo Tauro View Post
Do you do this experiment with all your cars..?
I am a QA engineer, I don't care what something can do, I am interested in finding out what it cannot do.

And I was young, dumb, and able to live without a vehicle until I fixed it...not any more. No longer young.

And most of the time these details were found out rocking a car stuck in snow or mud, without using the brakes to stop or at least limit wheel spin, however I generally followed it up with an at speed test.

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 03-09-2015, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like you got lucky. My brother managed to shift his 98 F150 into reverse at 25~ish mph and it ended up costing him a rearend and a trans. Sheared teeth off the ring gear and I'm not really sure what broke in the trans. but anytime it was put into a gear it sounded like an impact gun hammering on a stuck bolt.

What I WOULD be more concerned about is the fuel leak personally. Won't do you any good to fix the trans. if the car goes up in flames. I hope you park it outside and away from any structures. I'll take a wild guess that it's leaking somewhere around the rear tire area?
FordMan I do plan on fixing that fuel leak in a few days. I park behind my garage for the time being until it's fixed, I was waiting until I had enough to do my ignition system, fuel lines all the way to the filter (maybe more), my throttle position sensor wires to the PCM, and possibly a trans fluid drain and fill. How did you guess it's leaking from the back tire? It's where the line goes between the area below the rear seat and top of the tank (the pump sending unit area)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy Cougar View Post
I did that to my mom's then new 1995 Thunderbird when I was 16. Some retard told me you could shift an auto like a manual. So this retard tried it. I think ended up shifting all the way to R though I think I must have only been at the 1-2 WOT what ever speed that is. Lucky for me it just made a horrible noise and stalled. They put another 150,000 on it with no trouble. Poor car.
Freddy this made me feel so much better after reading! That's EXACTLY what my car did, horrible noise and then stalled. I pray I get at least 100,000 miles more out of the car with proper maintenance and NOT letting this happen again!

Last edited by Rodeo Joe; 03-10-2015 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Merged posts
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-06-2015, 01:00 PM
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I've done a Rockford turn once or twice with my old 94 4R70w, I'm surprised that didn't kill it then and there, actually looked pretty good inside too after I removed and dismantled it.
Ha, ha, MY 4R70W transmission chirped the rear driver's-side tire during the 1-2 upshift about a week and a half ago, as I was coming out of a left hand turn!

I had pulled out onto the busy road my apartment complex exits onto, in a hurry & when there really wasn't a sane amount of space to pull out into, and as my car was exiting the turn, I heard the tire chirp as the trans shifted into 2nd. The huge grin on my face and the thought of "WTF?!" quickly replaced the anger & frustration I was feeling at the difficulty I was having pulling into traffic. I had NO idea my tired (203,000 miles) V-8/4R70W trans combo was still capable of doing anything like that!

My transmission isn't entirely "untouched" - in 2010, Alan at DirtyDog performance rebuilt my trans using parts from it; a 1999 4R70W, and a 2004 4R70W transmission I had brought down with me (I was originally going to have that trans installed in my car, but he wasn't able to use that unit because it was too new; the person I bought it from on Craigslist told me it was from a 2002 car). He also used parts I bought at a Ford dealer, from a list of parts he gave me that Ford had improved since 1997, and I also had a brand-new, slightly heavier-duty (than stock) torque converter installed (to cure a BAD case of torque converter "shudder" my car was suffering from).

Despite "horror stories" I've heard from others, I haven't had a single problem with the work I had done in over 5 years (knocks on wood)!

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-06-2015, 07:17 PM
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I've done a Rockford turn once or twice with my old 94 4R70w, I'm surprised that didn't kill it then and there, actually looked pretty good inside too after I removed and dismantled it.
I do them without all the smokey burnout, it's fun.

One thing I've never understood... The only Fords I've ever driven regularly with a floor shifted auto have been Thunderbirds, my former 97 and my current one. So far, the ONLY vehicle I've ever driven with Neutral locked out (requiring pushing the button on the shifter) from Drive. I can understand having reverse locked out, that's just plain logical, but I don't understand locking out neutral, as that requires a LOT of fine motor control to put it only to neutral, and in a few emergency situations, popping into neutral can be beneficial. So... Is this a Ford thing in general, or a 4R70W thing?
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-06-2015, 09:38 PM
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reverse drops



i have done them a time or two. mostly in my old Torino.

it had a 8" rear. very tough.

VERY bad on the trany's & tires!


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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-07-2015, 09:25 AM
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I do them without all the smokey burnout, it's fun.

One thing I've never understood... The only Fords I've ever driven regularly with a floor shifted auto have been Thunderbirds, my former 97 and my current one. So far, the ONLY vehicle I've ever driven with Neutral locked out (requiring pushing the button on the shifter) from Drive. I can understand having reverse locked out, that's just plain logical, but I don't understand locking out neutral, as that requires a LOT of fine motor control to put it only to neutral, and in a few emergency situations, popping into neutral can be beneficial. So... Is this a Ford thing in general, or a 4R70W thing?
My Toyota didn't have neutral lock-out, but I added it. I like having to press the button to get it in neutral.

I made a new gate out of thick steel with my preferences, and bolted it to the side of the original gate. Now I can do manual shifting thru the forward gears w/o having to worry about hitting N.

Depending on how the gate is made, you might be able to grind down the "nub" a little to get it to go into N. But IIRC, you have to press the button to shift from 1-2-3 anyway.

Al

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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-07-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
My Toyota didn't have neutral lock-out, but I added it. I like having to press the button to get it in neutral.

I made a new gate out of thick steel with my preferences, and bolted it to the side of the original gate. Now I can do manual shifting thru the forward gears w/o having to worry about hitting N.

Depending on how the gate is made, you might be able to grind down the "nub" a little to get it to go into N. But IIRC, you have to press the button to shift from 1-2-3 anyway.

Al
Pushing the button for shifts makes sense to me, having to push it for neutral by default not so much. My column shifted Crown Vic didn't require pulling forward on the lever to go up to neutral, but it did to reverse as a sensible safety measure. A simple way to teach kids learning to drive in the snow is to pop it in neutral when starting to slide to remove power and regain control.

Granted, I think I've only ever done it once in all my years of driving (put it in neutral to control a slide), but still, I wonder why they made a lockout for neutral.
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-08-2015, 02:45 PM
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What if you do a manual 2-3 shift at WOT? Nothing stopping it from going into N and bouncing off the rev limiter a few times.

I remember when I drove my Toyota the first time. I thought I would be slick and manually shift it from a dig. My 1-2 shift ended up being a 1-N shift, skipped 2 gears. This is what prompted me to make a new shift gate with neutral lock-out.

Al

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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-08-2015, 04:02 PM
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My folks had a '78 Granada thanks to my Ford Grandpa. I was in high school when I was coached by my big brother to use neutral going down hills to save gas. I ended up going into reverse with a clunk and later the rear end on the Granada was replaced.

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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-08-2015, 05:33 PM
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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-08-2015, 07:58 PM
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There's five monkeys on this forum. you cant' be wrench money anymore.
Next one gets changed to "Gerbil_Lover 69", lol.

That's either SP or Simpsons, lol.

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Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
Black '97 Tbird Limited Edition, '02 4R70W, 255 walbro, PST DS, PBR Brakes&SS lines, Toicko Blues & Springs, GrogTune.


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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-08-2015, 09:16 PM
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-08-2015, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T6Rocket View Post
What if you do a manual 2-3 shift at WOT? Nothing stopping it from going into N and bouncing off the rev limiter a few times.

I remember when I drove my Toyota the first time. I thought I would be slick and manually shift it from a dig. My 1-2 shift ended up being a 1-N shift, skipped 2 gears. This is what prompted me to make a new shift gate with neutral lock-out.

Al
I always pushed forward till the resistance lessened, then pulled back.. but that was when I was a kid in my parent's car. Once I learned to just let the auto shift itself, it was never much of an issue for me.

I do prefer stick shifts though.
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