In Big Trouble...PLEASE HELP - could be TC :( - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 05:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Exclamation In Big Trouble...PLEASE HELP - could be TC :(

Hey all,

I just took my 94 Thunderbird for a trip to FL. I put around 4000 miles on the car. The odometer currently reads roughly 117,500. Car was running perfectly. While down there (I was visiting my father) we replaced the TPS and EGR valve (no reason), checked plugs, cleaned trottle body, charged AC, and changed the oil. Everything was running fine for a few days. Then the night before I left for NJ, the trouble started...

We got 12 qts of Mercon V, filter, and 1-2 accumulator piston. We drained all of the old fluid (looked great). The old 1-2 piston came out with some trouble (the previous shop had beat the crap out of it putting it in - never seemed a problem though) and we replaced it with the new rubber unit. We reused the old gasket since it was in good shape, replaced the filter, and added 8 qts of Mercon V. I shifted trough the gears and noticed that the engine started running a little rough. I thought that this was going to fix itself once I added the rest of the fluid. So we added the rest of the fluid, ran it through the gears, and went to bed.

I woke up the next morning and started the car. It ran like crap! It would seem to try and stall itself then shoot up 300 rpms (about 900 rpms in park) and then go back to stalling itself out. Same thing in any gear. AND I HAD TO LEAVE IN 2 HOURS!

So I took it for a test drive. Everything seemed ok enough when I was accelerating except for a small hesitation, almost a stumble, then it would pick itself up. Then it through a code. I took it to autozone and it had something to do with the air/fuel mixture (don't remember exact code). So I drove it home. By this time the car was running even worse. Checked fluid level which was perfect. I called my dad at work and he told me to get the thing checked out before I left and then chance the trip. I took it to the local shop and they suggested that the TC didn't like the synthetic fluid and to change it out for some new Dextron. Since he said this without me mentioning anything, I just went for it and left. Problem got much worse but the car made the trip.

The car didn't maintain speed too well and had a terrible shudder especially at lower rpms (under 2500). Once I got home the car would barely, I had to almost floor it, get up hills. Even when floored the rpms, however, stayed constant. The reason I think it is in the TC is because everthing was fine until we touched the trans. It feels like the car is slipping (only with a horrible shaking) and then it catches and takes off as well as smoothes out.

I'm in high school which means a couple things. I NEED MY CAR BACK (I won't drive it til I get it too a shop, I have a feeling it won't go at all pretty soon)! I also don't have too much money. So I need to narrow down this problem. I do have some decent automotive skils but if it's the TC, I'd be much more comfortable with someone else doing it.

I'm open for any questions/suggestions/comments....ANYTHING! I need to fix this asap. Sorry for the long post. WHY WOULD THE MERCON DO THIS! AHHHHHH!

Thanks.

Last edited by Hill1513; 04-25-2004 at 05:58 PM.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 05:15 PM
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stalling? did you forget to plug one of the electronic harnesses back in when you bolted it back up?

The fluid has nothing to do with it, the person you spoke to has no idea what they are talking about.

What is the fluid level at now, is it filled up (not overfilled)
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 05:15 PM
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Sorry to read about your troubles. Do you rememberf the code number P????
Your mentioned the code had something to do with air/fuel mixture. Try cleaning
your MAF sensor with some contact spray and find out what that code is if you
can and post it.

Chris..................
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
 
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justin...
we never unplugged anything, so that isn't the culprit. I'm afraid to move the car (it's not on level ground) to check the fluid, but I'll see what I can do.

chris...
I was thinking MAF at first but the symptoms don't match it and the problems began once I chanced the fluid. Again, I don't want to move the car if I don't have to in order to get the code.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 06:01 PM
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get the code, that will tell us the whole story.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hill1513
chris...
I was thinking MAF at first but the symptoms don't match it and the problems began once I chanced the fluid. Again, I don't want to move the car if I don't have to in order to get the code.
Clean it anyway! At least that eliminates it from the list of possible problems.
You would be amazed what a dirty MAF will do.

It would still help a lot to get the codes.

Chris........................
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 06:13 PM
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i have a stock 97 TC with about, oh uh.. 85k ish? i think on it.. you can have it for cost of shipping.. it is just sitting here anyway...
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 08:11 PM
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Well, clean the IAC and MAF, and check the connections on the TPS. Check the connections on the 02 sensors if you were under there at all, since you could have messed one up...however unlikely. Check the gaskets and bolt torque on the EGR valve since you messed with it. (That'll teach you not to mess with things that are working properly, lol ). Look for broken/cracked vacuum lines. (They break easily when they get old.) Switch back to MERCON V and never use MERCON III or DEXRON in a 4R70W trans. Also, check out that code, and let us know what is is. Are you running the stock torque converter? If so, probably time for a new one as the 94 converter clutches are the worst of the bunch. What happens if you drive it without the converter clutch engaged? (drive in second gear, or disconnect the connector to the TCC solenoid.) Let us know.
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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hotbird....
My first thought was to go over other (less expensive) things. The fact that it was running rough after we did the tranny makes me think that the problem lies there. Plus the car just feels like the trans is messed (can't really explain it, also no the best way to diagnose things).

Yes, it is a stock 94 TC and the shudder/lack of power thing happens in every gear and at any speed. It's worse under acceleration though.

How much would getting a new TC installed cost?
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-25-2004, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jamesD
i have a stock 97 TC with about, oh uh.. 85k ish? i think on it.. you can have it for cost of shipping.. it is just sitting here anyway...

same here...anyone can have it...pick it up or just pay shipping

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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 12:06 PM
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So did you get that code scanned? Also, since you say the trans feels like it is messed up in all gears, did you make sure that the new trans filter was securely in the bore? If so, time to check line and clutch cylinder pressures.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 01:52 PM
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You said you replaced the TPS?Do you still have the old one? if you do I would put it back on an see if it cures your idle problem.A bad TC doesn't seem like it would cause a prob with idle but i've been wrong befor. Good-luck.

corey

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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 09:14 PM
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You really should have written down the code that you got from the scan at AutoZone.

I am not sure why you are focused on the TC as being the problem.

First off;

Can AutoZone give you the code number without you having to go back there?

Did you put the drain plug for the TC back in, when you re-filled it?

Have you crawled back under the car, to make sure you didn't accidentally damage one of the wire connectors on the four o2 sensors, or the tranny wiring connector?

Have you re-checked the TPS sensor, and the connector, to make sure you didn't damage that?

What amazes me here, is that your check engine light comes on, you take it somewhere and get a code, but you don't seem to think the code is your problem.

The answer to the problem will be brought forth by getting the CODE NUMBER.

Keep us posted, and we will all get to the bottom of it.........Good Luck

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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for all the replies everyone...keep them coming!

I talked to a few different Ford techs today and every single one of them didn't think the TC was to blame. They told me to put back in the Mercon V (as you guys have said) and get the exact code (again, you guys). They said it would have thrown a trans code, not a air/fuel code, if the TC was to blame.

My next step is to go to Autozone tomorrow and get the exact code. I was also thinking about picking up a MAF and putting that in to see if it helps...if not I'll return it so I can try and save myself the cash (very very tight) and also narrow down the problem. Who knows...maybe it'll work!

I'll get the code and post it tomorrow evening. Again, thanks a lot for all the input.
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 09:19 PM
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Also,

I read your original post again, and saw that you cleaned your throttle body. In the course of doing this plus the EGR and A/C service, did you remove the intake tube?

And if you did, did you plug the MAF sensor, and the Inlet temperature sensors back in?

You might have missed one of those........

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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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Steve....
Yeah, I hear you on all accounts. I wasn't sure if the computer could tell me that the TC was bad (I've only worked on older cars, not too familiar with electronics). I will do everything you have mentioned since all are very good ideas (TC plug is definitely in though! ). Thanks again.
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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 09:30 PM
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if you own an obd2 car for a while, you will finally give in and buy a scanner, they have dropped in price I got one for like 70 bucks.

Some of the snapon units are a few hundred but a generic one works fine for my purposes.

JH
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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The only thing that still confuses me about all of this is the the car ran PERFECTLY before I touched the trans. O2s are fine....

Oh well.
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 10:09 PM
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But you did more than just touch the transmission.

You messed around in the engine compartment, too.

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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hill1513

My next step is to go to Autozone tomorrow and get the exact code. I was also thinking about picking up a MAF and putting that in to see if it helps...if not I'll return it so I can try and save myself the cash (very very tight) and also narrow down the problem. Who knows...maybe it'll work!
Try cleaning the MAF first before buying a new one!This has been suggested a few
times now!

Chris.................
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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-26-2004, 11:42 PM
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you didn't specify in your post whether or not you drained the TC when you put in the Merc5....i'm going to assume you did, but if not, that could be a bad thing....mixing Dexron 3 with Mercon 5
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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 11:31 AM
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Unplug the MAF and try it. If it works better, then its the MAF.

The TPS sensor is not bad, bad TPS would not cause your problems.

If its not the MAF, then is sounds like you are misfiring somehow, like a loose plug wire or malfunctioning injector. Get the exact code.

Transmission fluid would not cause this either, the TC would not have these problems. To elimitate the transmission, put it in netral, test the car to make sure it is in neutral (roll it, or coast it) Then rev the engine to see if the symptoms come back.

-Andrey

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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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You guys were all right so far. It's not the trans (tried the neutral thing, still bogging), and it turned out not to be the MAF (disconnected it, same exact stumble). It turns out that my school's shop has a code scanner and I will get it scanned tomorrow (no Autozone close by). I'll keep you all informed.

Thanks again.
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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
 
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Also, I tried to look over everything that I did and couldn't find anything. I know I have to take a better look by the EGR valve though. Any suggestions on what exactly to look for?
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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 07:36 PM
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Well, it is very possible that you have a vacuum leak which is letting unmetered air in, and thus causing you to run lean.

A trick to finding a leak is with the engine running, spray carb cleaner around/onto areas which you think are leaking (in your case around the EGR) and see if it changes the idle. If the idle changes, then theres your leak.

Carb cleaner is cheap, like $1 a can, so try that.

Though, you should have a nice sized leak to cause such poor ride. Check the hoses and the clamps around the air tube. You could have pulled the hose over the little plastic thing that sticks out of the fitting and have a leak there. They are a pain to find just by looking at them.

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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
 
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Unfortunately I tried the carb cleaner....no luck.

I'll post the code tomorrow.
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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
 
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Ok, codes are as follows:

P0102 - MAF (probably from unplugging it last night to check it)
P0402 - EGR something or other
P1131 - no idea
P1132 - no idea

Can anyone shine some light on this for me?

Thanks.
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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 12:59 PM
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Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) P1131 and P1151 indicate the system is correcting rich for an overly lean condition. The HO2S voltage is less than 0.45 volt.

DTCs P1132 and P1152 indicate the system is correcting lean for an overly rich condition. The HO2S voltage is greater than 0.45 volt.

DTCs P1130 and P1150 indicate the fuel control system has reached its maximum compensation for a lean or rich condition and HO2S is not switching.

DTC P0171, left bank, and DTC P0174, right bank, indicate the fuel/air ratio is too lean. The system is at the rich limit.

DTC P0172, left bank, and DTC P0175, right bank, indicate the fuel/air ratio is too rich. The system is at the lean limit.

DTC/HO2S Reference List

-- HO2S-11 = DTCs P1130, P1131, P1132, P0171 and P0172

-- HO2S-21 = DTCs P1150, P1151, P1152, P0174 and P0175

Possible causes:

Fuel System

-- Excessive fuel pressure.

-- Leaking fuel injector(s).

-- Leaking fuel pressure regulator.

-- Low fuel pressure.

-- Plugged injector(s).

-- Damaged/disconnected HO2S circuit.

Induction System

-- Air leaks after MAF.

-- Vacuum leaks.

-- Restricted air inlet.

-- PCV system.

Base Engine

-- Oil overfill.

-- Cam timing.

-- Compression.

Ignition

-- Coil and secondary side of ignition system.

l Check air intake for leaks, obstructions, and damage.

l Check air filter, air filter housing for blockage.

l Check positive crankcase ventilation system integrity.

l Check engine vacuum integrity.

l Are there any obvious concerns?

Yes
REPAIR any of the problems found in the visual inspection. RERUN «Quick Test».

No
GO to «H41».


HERE'S THE STUFF ON P1132


TCs P1132 and P1152 indicate the system is correcting lean for an overly rich condition. The HO2S voltage is greater than 0.45 volt.

DTCs P1130 and P1150 indicate the fuel control system has reached its maximum compensation for a lean or rich condition and HO2S is not switching.

DTC P0171, left bank, and DTC P0174, right bank, indicate the fuel/air ratio is too lean. The system is at the rich limit.

DTC P0172, left bank, and DTC P0175, right bank, indicate the fuel/air ratio is too rich. The system is at the lean limit.

DTC/HO2S Reference List

-- HO2S-11 = DTCs P1130, P1131, P1132, P0171 and P0172

-- HO2S-21 = DTCs P1150, P1151, P1152, P0174 and P0175

Possible causes:

Fuel System

-- Excessive fuel pressure.

-- Leaking fuel injector(s).

-- Leaking fuel pressure regulator.

-- Low fuel pressure.

-- Plugged injector(s).

-- Damaged/disconnected HO2S circuit.

Induction System

-- Air leaks after MAF.

-- Vacuum leaks.

-- Restricted air inlet.

-- PCV system.

Base Engine

-- Oil overfill.

-- Cam timing.

-- Compression.

Ignition

-- Coil and secondary side of ignition system.

l Check air intake for leaks, obstructions, and damage.

l Check air filter, air filter housing for blockage.

l Check positive crankcase ventilation system integrity.

l Check engine vacuum integrity.

l Are there any obvious concerns?

Yes
REPAIR any of the problems found in the visual inspection. RERUN «Quick Test».

No
GO to «H41».

Steve - TCCoA member
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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
 
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P0402 - EGR something or other <----- I think this is my problem...

I looked up the other two codes and it was an o2 reading rich and lean (at different times I suppose).

The guy must have just installed the EGR valve wrong when he did it, or it's faulty. Serves me right for fixing something that wasn't broke (as you guys said!).

How would an EGR make it run so rough though (I don't understand the EGR system very well).

Anybody have any other ideas?
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 01:03 PM
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Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) P0402 indicates that Self-Test has detected EGR flow at idle.

NOTE:
If DTC P1405 is in Continuous Memory, diagnose that first starting with «HE50».

Possible causes:

-- EGR valve stuck open.

-- EVR solenoid vent plugged or iced.

-- EVR circuit shorted to GND.

-- Improper vacuum hose connection.

-- Plugged/pinched EGR vacuum hose.

-- Damaged EVR solenoid.

-- Damaged DPFE sensor.

-- Damaged PCM.

l Key off.

l Disconnect vacuum hose at EGR valve and plug hose.

l Run Key On Engine Running (KOER) Self-Test.

l Is KOER DTC P0402 output?

Yes
The KOER Self-Test has detected EGR flow at idle. REMOVE and INSPECT the EGR valve for signs of contamination, unusual wear, carbon deposits, binding and other damage. SERVICE as necessary (use Rotunda EGR Valve Cleaner 021-00056, if needed). RECONNECT all components. COMPLETE PCM Reset to clear DTCs (REFER to Section 2, «Powertrain Control Module (PCM) Reset»). RERUN «Quick Test».

No
RECONNECT vacuum hose to EGR valve. GO to «HE21».

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