lost research, what will I need here? - TCCoA Forums
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
 
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lost research, what will I need here?

Lost my list of needed parts in an HDD crash a while back.

Right now im aiming to build a 400hp boosted 96 4.6. Looking at an SHM rotating assembly (uses a forged cobra 8 bolt crank) and ive got an 11" torque converter (plus alum driveshaft already installed) from a 93 mark VIII.
Im thinking I should get a heavy duty 8 bolt flexplate when i build the engine, but if I decide to install the tc before that, will it bolt up to my 6 bolt flexplate? or do I need an 8 bolt plate?

Also, is the 11" tc gonna handle that kinda power in a heavy vehicle or should i spend the $ on a higher stall converter? this is gonna be a street/autoX car, so Im not worried about drag performance.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-14-2004, 12:46 AM
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You will have to use an 8 bolt flexplate since the cobra crank is 8 bolt. I'd be like trying to put a set of 4x4.25 wheel on your car....

8 bolt flexplates can be found easily as they were stock in 99+00 auto stang GTs.

If you do get one of those flexplates, you will need to use an 11" TC as that is what the stang had. Aftermarket TCs would work too, but there is a large price jump from a Mark8 or Maraduer TC to a PI, etc.

Not sure how hgih a stal you'd want for autoX, but if your going to stay NA, a marauder TC is the best bang for the buck. should be good for a 2700rpm stall.




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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-14-2004, 04:06 AM Thread Starter
 
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NA 400hp *smiles* im not that good yet. turbo application... but its gonna take me a while to build everything up so I may be just jmodding, installing that mark8 tc and adding some comp cams to keep me happy while buying up all the other go fast stuff.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-14-2004, 05:54 AM
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Stay away from SHaM.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-14-2004, 08:28 AM
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If you're talking 400hp to the wheels, that'll be around 475 or so to the crank.. I wouldn't mess with a Mark or Marauder converter. If the converter balloons or fails, you're thrust bearing is at risk.. I've burnt up one of those and it ain't a pretty site.. lotsa bad stuff happens..

The Mark aluminum driveshafts are not much better than the stock MN12 shafts .. if you plan on driving over 80mph, or spinning your engine past 5500 rpm, I'd recommend a MMX driveshaft.

There are engine builders far far better than SHM out there.. Modular Performance and Renegade instantly come to mind. The guys at MD like VT.. but it's your money...

By the way the Cobra crank is a sweet unit, and I'm not knocking anyone that has one.. if you've got the $800 or so to use, go for it.. but by no means is it necessary, especially if you are only going to 400rwhp. No one I know knows of an instance where a stock crank failed on its own. There are guys out there running 700rwhp with stock cranks... The guy that built my engine, built it to sustain 700hp, and it doesn't have a Cobra crank.. it's got an 8 bolt cast pick-up crank.. He told me to spend my money on something I really need...

I know there are some guys out there with them, and don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the Cobra crank... I'm just saying that if money is an issue, this guy does not NEED a Cobra crank.. very few folks do... The post is titled "what will I NEED?"

-mike

96 GoldBird

'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

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245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-14-2004, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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I suppose in that case i should save the money for the crank and buy a better tc with it. Now... should I buy a balanced short block or just get the balanced parts and build my block (120k) Ive heard a lot of rumors that 4.6 blocks get better with age. Im capable of building an engine properly, but im not a pro like the shops.

I figured Id get warded away from sean hyland. I dont really trust him, that package just looked nice.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-15-2004, 01:32 AM
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$800 for a cobra crank? I've been seeing prices half that.




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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-15-2004, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreenBird
$800 for a cobra crank? I've been seeing prices half that.
Someday I'll post something you agree with, and the world will stop..

That's the price I was quoted by Jim O'Neill, but what does he know?

Maybe you should do this guy and everyone else a favor and list all the vendors you know who are selling them for less. It would probably be helpful to include their contact information.

Of course the point I was making was that whether for $800, or $400, or $200, or $50... for the power levels he is looking to make, the Cobra crank is not a necessary expense.

-mike

-mike

96 GoldBird

'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

N/A:
Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-15-2004, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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shm is selling them for $500 or so, but goldbird is right, basically impossible to find a record of someone blowing a GT crank under 500hp. So yeah Im blow that off. Too bad I missed the 1149 sale at MP. But I think im gonna jump on the cams and springs for $700 thing they have going over there. pick up some CC102200 cams and build from there. Think its really worth another $200 for the HP bearings they're using for the stage 2 engine kits?
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-15-2004, 11:01 AM
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SHM's price is for the crank alone, or what they charge to build it into the motor they are possibly overcharging you for??

Of course there is a possibility that we're talkin' apples and oranges...

FRPP retails the 96-01 Cobra crank for $650.. around $599 from Dan.

Ford retails the same crank for around $1500... $1054

The 03 Cobra crank retails for around $1400 from Ford ... $1017 from Dan.

I honestly don't know which crank Jim was quoting for "around $800." Since he said I didn't need it, I didn't ask.. it didn't matter. I gotta wonder though if the ones for "half that" or SHM's $500 cranks are brand new, never been used, or reconditioned?? or maybe e-ghey specials... I really don't know that much about them, except that they are not needed in any application under probably 800-1000 hp...

I wonder if anyone out there knows of any pure crank failures at even over 500 hp.. I know JL doesn't 'cause we've discussed it a few times, and he's asked around alot, and neither does Jim O'Neill, and he's built and post mortum-ed a lot of 4.6's, and talks to a lot of guys.

The 102200's are a great cam and that's a real good deal, but I'd talk to Ken at MD or John at Modular Performance about using them in a boosted application. I dunno, I sold mine to an N/A maniac when I decided to go blower, but mine were also custom ground LSA for alot of overlap..... When you add aftermarket cams to a boosted app, you can be adding potential idle and surge issues that can make good driveability very difficult to achieve.. talk to Chadg... KD tuned my old 102200's in their new app and said it was tough... the SCT guys took a couple of days to get them right in my car. There are blower cams out there.. maybe the 102200's custom ground with LESS overlap, maybe 115* or even 116* LSA??? I dunno.. I went for the reliable OEM PI cams.. no overlap, no surge, no idle problems... If I need more power, I'll spin a smaller pulley.



-mike

96 GoldBird

'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

N/A:
Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-15-2004, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
 
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Im pretty sure the ones SHM is selling are used 96-01's They're $550 for just the crank shipped. Oh well, dead horse right?

When I say boost, Im talking about turbocharging. I typically dont mention turbo on this board outside of the turbo forum. Ive just had some bad reactions and the past and It shy'd me away from the board for a while, but things seem to be a lot more positive since ive come back. Surge is one of my biggest worries and I may end up spending $1000 on a new turbo just right for me rather than making a junk yard one work to try to avoid the surge. It seems a lot of the 5.0 turbo guys on turbomustang.com are saying cams really dont seem to make a difference, and any decent cam with a good flowing head will do the job for a street/strip turbo car. But pushrods and OHC's have this tendency to not act like each other at all so I'll have to talk to some pros when the time comes.

For now Im getting pretty excited about cams, but Im doing suspension work first anyway so there's plenty of time I guess.
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-15-2004, 09:34 PM
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Well the word was always that there is no way practical to do the turbo.. but "practical" is a very subjective term nowadays... whoda thought putting a PI intake on NPI heads would be practical two years ago.. and now it's the hottest thing going..

I know of a real honest-to-God T-bird twin turbo project in the works right now.. It's being done by someone very good and it will happen.. not sure when, but it will happen.. it's not a pipe dream.. it's for real..

You are right about push rods vs. OHC... like nite and day.. a lot of the old school standard mod ideas, just don't work the same in the 4.6.. and other stuff that you'd never do to a push rod seems to work real well... it's not just the push rod vs. OHC thing either... it the modular engine itself.. it's a different breed of cat... the tolerences are so close..

-michael

96 GoldBird

'96 T-Bird LX 4.6L Alive & well & living in S. Florida

N/A:
Renegade NPI heads/Comp Cams; OEM intake manifold; Bolt-ons
245 rwhp; 13.713 @ 99.35 (Commerce, GA - November 2003)


BLOWN: Renegade NPI heads; Renegade shortblock; Intercooled T-Trim; some other stuff
Pump Gas Numbers - 547 rwhp / 525 ft.lbs; Best Time - 11.388 @ 118.68 (Commerce, GA - November 2007)
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-16-2004, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
 
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yup, Im really happy the modular performance world is finally comming around tho. MM&FF said it would take about 10 years to really start taking off... they were about right. I typically have more respect for 4.6 builders tho. 5.0 is nice and all, but its like a 350, anyone can do it for a bit of money.

Im really waiting for the first set of aftermarket heads to come out for a 4.6. Just to see what they can do with em. But Im betting not much. Just like compression increases do very little for them.
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