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post #1 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-16-2004, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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Gear Change Swap Cost

Hey guys, my borther and I want to both do a gear swap in our cars, his is a 95 GT Mustang with a 5-speed, and 3:55 Trak-Lok Gears I believe. He wants to to put in 3:73's or 4:10's. My car is a 97 4.6 T-Bird with an open 3:27. I would like to put on 3:73's or 4:10s also. How much would it cost my brother to get the gears and have them installed? How much would it cost me to have TL rear end installed? Thanks for any help.

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post #2 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-16-2004, 11:46 PM
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If you supply all the parts I would say 250-350 for a full rebuild and proper installation of the gears. Setting the gears up correctly is important don't let just anybody set them up, the process takes time you just have to be patient.
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post #3 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-17-2004, 12:54 AM Thread Starter
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Wow, I thought it'd be a lot more than that. That's just for gears you mean right? Also, is it cheaper to do the swap on A solid rear like a mustang than on an I.R.S. car like the MN-12's?

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post #4 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-17-2004, 03:55 AM
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Sounds like he means $250-350 for the labor. I assume that would be if you take the carriers down to a shop vs. taking the whole car in, maybe not though

IRS and solid rear shouldn't matter if you take in the carriers.

Probably be around $200-300 for parts depending on what all you need, and what brand of gears you get. Also the t/l will add to that for your car.

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post #5 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-17-2004, 06:56 AM
 
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I got brand new Ford 4.10s for $120 shipped, and I'll be picking up a used IRS TL unit for $55 soon. You can get the gears and TL carrier for pretty cheap if you shop around.
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post #6 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-17-2004, 12:10 PM
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i have about 220 dollars in gears and trac-loc, and a local shop is going to do the install for about 100-150 dollars. i am suppling them with the pumpkin and parts.

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post #7 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-18-2004, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, I thought it'd be a lot more than that for some reason, maybe this is still in the works for the Tbird, drifting sure would be much easier with a 3:73 TL.

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post #8 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 09:26 AM
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"Slomo" "I got brand new Ford 4.10s for $120 shipped, and I'll be picking up a used IRS TL unit for $55 soon. You can get the gears and TL carrier for pretty cheap if you shop around."

The 8.8s dont have to be from a IRS All LSD's work from 8.8s Or I should say all 28 spline

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post #9 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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Is my bro's 95 GT an 8.8?

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post #10 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 07:44 PM
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gears rule, you are going to love them, money well spent!!!

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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 09:39 PM
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yes the mustang has an 8.8. and my recommendation for both of you is to screw the 3.73's and get 4.10's, you definitly will not regret it. i paid $350 for install of gears, rebuilt my stock tracion lock, heavey duty u-joints, 23 tooth speedometer gear, steeda irs bushings and all fluids. That includes them pulling and re-installing my pumpkin. i brought all the parts and just dropped my car off and picked it up the next day with all of it installed. 4.10's are best upgrade i've done so far for everyday driving. makes the car so much more fun to drive. i was quoted by the same shop $200 to swap in the gears and rebuild my stock trac lock if i pulled the pumpkin and droped it off there but i had them do it all.

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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron_T
Sounds like he means $250-350 for the labor. I assume that would be if you take the carriers down to a shop vs. taking the whole car in, maybe not though

IRS and solid rear shouldn't matter if you take in the carriers.

Probably be around $200-300 for parts depending on what all you need, and what brand of gears you get. Also the t/l will add to that for your car.
Let me put it this way. If you brought me the whole car and all of the parts i would do it for $350. If you brought me a pumpkin I would do it for $250. Swapping the pumpkin isn't very difficult. Setting up the gears properly is(can be). I'm sure it is easier for Teeps because he seems to be the rearend man around here. My recomendation for anyone who is not going to do them yourself would be to pm Teeps first. I can't think of a shop around I would want to set up gears on an 8.8 for me. Anybody who says they'll do it for $100 is either underestimating the job because they have never done it before, has done it before but really doesn't take the time to get it right, or likes to work for $5-$10 an hour.
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2004, 11:23 PM
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Yeah, I agree you can spend alot of time if your being really accurate with the gear clearances, which I am.
Dirty Dog hit the nail on the head.

If you have the right process down, you can come pretty darn close on the first shot, or two, with really good tools, careful math and very accurate measurements (you'd have to be a robot). This takes quite a bit of time in itself.

However, it is much easier said than done, usually will take quite a bit of prep, and re-prep to ge everything just right. I build everyone one of these like it's going into my own car.
Lets just say, I've seen some pretty sloppy stuff come out of gear shops. Yet people drive down the road with a whiny rear end, and don't realize it until quite a few miles down the road during a highway trip, when they finally turned the radio down low enough to hear it, lol. I've seen gear shops turn people away, that came back correct this, or offer to check it but only if the customer pays the same flat rate again to tear it open again.

I'm doing them at a low price right now, just to show that my setups will be perfect, and take a real licking. (especially if you opt for a detroit locker).
I'd rather get them out there, and let people field test and abuse them, I back anything I build, and I'm happy to prove my builds first at a lower price.

But I'm still assessing a good average time for this job, and I won't always be doing them for as cheap as I'm bidding them now. Because all I do are 8.8's nothing else, and I do them to NASA clearances.

You won't get that outside of a really good Ford speedshop, and your not going to pay less than 350-500 for one of those shops to do it the right way. Maybe even more, many of those shops charge alteast $100/hour

So right now, if you provide all of the parts, and a new carrier, I'm only charging $120.00 to rebuild them, this is for about 6 more months. Then I will reset this fee to a larger amount, based on average time. I'm guessing I will charge at least double this price in the future, but I'm going to average this after several jobs.

If you are providing a carrier and housing, and gears. In a high mileage unit, everything needs to be rebuilt, I replace every single bearing, bolt, race in the entire unit, including the side/pilot bearings for the half shafts,
(Unlike gear shops, I'm not going to send one out with new carrier bearings, and 100,000 mile pilot bearings.) It will cost $30.00 labor for me to rebuild the carrier (for the next 6 months) if you send a new traction lock carrier or other, and don't need any build up done, then there is no additional labor for my installation of the carrier.

The parts and supplies alone for the entire pumpkin (minus the case/gears/carrier)
cost in the range of $200-250 (thats for minimum, no custom options). add 150-185 for gears, 75-150 for a case, 75-500 for a carrier (from used OEM, to wild aftermarket), and add for any custome options, e.g. one piece spacers, carbon fiber clutches, solid spacers, hd shims, re-usable gaskets, etc, etc.
Some additional options may include custom machining if the carrier used does not have grooves for circlips (if required by customer) on the side gears (for half shafts - retention), does not include 28 spline side gears, if a 31 spline carrier was provided.

I have hunted around quite a bit and the cheapest I've found a shop doing this work, was doing it to beat the local competitions price, Local competition was doing it for 200, and this shop was beating them by 20-25 bux I can't remember exactly.
They did work mostly on chevy, and dana rears, and knew very little about 8.8 IRS or specifics of Aluminum differentials.
There are special specifications for Aluminum diff's that are complete different from iron 8.8's, never mind Dana rear ends.
I asked one of them there about bearing kits for the 8.8 IRS, and he was adament that the kit that included axle bearings for a live axle setup would work fine with the IRS diff, which is totally incorrect.
Obviously, they would have charged the customer for these, reliased they wouldn't work, and left the old ones in, and sent the customer on their way.

I trust those guys to work on one of my 8.8's about as far as I can through a cast iron one.

Just my .02

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For any parties interested, I'm building up a detroit locker for an Aluminum diff, with 4.30's for a customer, and he's got a pretty darn powerful test bed, so he is going to poor the heat on this sucker, and see how much of a lick'n it will take.
I'll probably be installing it towards the end of February.
I'm sure he'll be reporting back with his findings sometime in the spring.

Thanks,

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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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My car is a TL, do I need anything else for the install except for a new gasket, rear end fluid, a new speedo gear, and a chip reburn?

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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97Tibirdman
My car is a TL, do I need anything else for the install except for a new gasket, rear end fluid, a new speedo gear, and a chip reburn?
Install what?

Short answer is YES

edit: Just looked at your first post.


Most guys go through the whole rear, and look at the bearings and races, if they look bad then they replace.

Personally, If I know there has been more than a few miles on things, and any of the bearings in the rear look worn, then I replace every single bearing/race, after first completely cleaning everything out. Lotso break cleaner to buy.
New pinion and carrier bearings are a minimum, you'll need shims, bolts, and I recommend you rebuild the TL while your in there.
In which case you'll need a rebuild kit for the T-lock (personally I usually add extra clutches at minimum, depending on the clearances I might also add a stiffer S spring)

New gears come with a new crush sleave, and there is so much more to this. I'm not going to post a how to on here, there are a few articles out there.

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Last edited by Teeps; 12-29-2004 at 12:30 PM.
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 12:34 PM
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I think I had about 400-450 total with mine, bought a used SC center section (ended up being about $150 ish with shipping on it, shipping raped me there), New 4.10 gears ($180ish?), trac loc clutch rebuild kit ($50), new bearings, install and gear oil. Dependng on what it cost to get them set up and what you pay for a trac loc carrier you could end up with as much as $700 in parts and labor based on a quote I got from one shop in omaha. I ended up with a hook up on someone who would set teh gears up for me.

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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 12:40 PM
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teeps, how much you're gonna build one if you supply all the parts? my car couldn't afford any downtime hence that's why i want a complete dropin pumpkin. i want a trakloc 3.73 aluminium pumpkin. iron case also doesn't matter but alumimium prefreable just for the bling factor.

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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 12:45 PM
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I got my FRPP pumpkin w/ 3.73's and a LSD for about $650 shipped from MAx at 5 star ford. I went that route because it was the cheapest, and I sold my original center section for about $150, so about $500 for a completely new set up, not too bad.

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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 12:56 PM
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Case 75 iron
150 aluminum

Price varies on the trac lock, especially if you want the extra clutch packs and rebuilt, I'll try to find a used one since it's going to be rebuilt, and the older units are better.
If you just want a new TL they run in the 180-190 range + shipping.
On average TL range from 80-190 .
120 for build up labor flat rate, 30 for TL build up if needed, hourly for extra mods.
parts for minimum install = $330 +/-
so case + 120 labor + 300.00 parts + new TL 210

If iron then it woud be 75 + 120 + 300 + 210 = 705 + shipping
or adjust the TL pricing above for a used unit in good condition if that's what you want. So 210 becomes 120 (avg price) and total changes to $615 + shipping.

If you want a stouter trac lock with extra clutck packs, etc
then with iron case: 75 + 150 + 330 + 120 (average used TL)
$675 + shipping

If you want custom options, it will cost more.

Alow for parts price changes, that $330.00 may fluctuate based on current parts pricing, so alow atleast $350.00 in your budget.

Also you can substitute a different differential like True-Trac or Detroit Locker, or Torsen, etc.
You can then delete the TL pricing, and insert pricing for the diff of your choice.

Hope this helps,

Don

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 03:17 PM
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What have you seen to be the average price to ship an assembled pumpkin? Also do you ship it with the fluid in it?

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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 03:37 PM
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teeps i gotta bust you on one thing, 8.8 bearings are all the same , barring they wont have the side support bearings and the right side seals

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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk89cat
teeps i gotta bust you on one thing, 8.8 bearings are all the same , barring they wont have the side support bearings and the right side seals

Your agreeing with me, if by side support bearings you mean the pilot bearing/seals for the sides near where the half shafts mate up.

This kit I'm talking about, includes bearings used for live axles out by the wheel hub inside the axle shafts, the guy was flat wrong.

If you want to try to install these axle bearings inside of an IRS pumpkin good luck to you, lol.

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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94t-birdlx
What have you seen to be the average price to ship an assembled pumpkin? Also do you ship it with the fluid in it?
PM me your address, and I can get you a pretty accurate figure.

These units are fairly heavy, so it's not exactly cheap, probably 35-55 on average.

You can punch in Berkley, MI 48072 at ups.com to get an estimate.

No fluid, but I can ship friction modifier, and fluid bottled seperately.

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Last edited by Teeps; 12-29-2004 at 09:43 PM.
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2004, 11:26 PM
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will you able to do the instalation on the car too? i live in michigan 2 hour from detroit. thinking of doing it somewhere around spring.

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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2004, 12:04 AM
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Yes, if you sign a waiver, I will bolt it into your car for 35 / hr, and provide you with new drive shaft bolts.
If I had to guess, I'd say 2-3 hours, however it might actually take alot less time than that.


The waiver thing is a formality, I'm not yet an LLC, and I don't have any type of business insurance yet, so it's a necessary evil these days.

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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2004, 08:04 AM
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yea thats what i was talking about teeps.

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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2004, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teeps
Yes, if you sign a waiver, I will bolt it into your car for 35 / hr, and provide you with new drive shaft bolts.
If I had to guess, I'd say 2-3 hours, however it might actually take alot less time than that.


The waiver thing is a formality, I'm not yet an LLC, and I don't have any type of business insurance yet, so it's a necessary evil these days.
i'll sign any waiver if needed. that's a good price provided the job is well done. one question, i have mark 8 1 piece shaft on it now and i'll be ok with 3.73 right?

4.10 need the mmx shaft or the mark shaft is adequate enough?

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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2004, 04:37 PM
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That is a subjective question.

Every car is different, and every usage is different.
If you have the money and you do alot of high speed driving the Metal matix composite shaft is a no brainer.

If you drive 35mph every where you go, then you don't absolutely need it.

There are alot of guys running 3.73's some have vibes with the mk8 shaft, and some don't.

I'm guessing since you live in Midland you do alot of highway driving, and I would recommend the MMC shaft in that case.

Regardless of the driveshaft, We'll go for a test drive after yours is all setup, and if need be we can index the shaft/pinion flange connection to get the best balance (if any vibes are noticed during a freeway blast)

Driveline angle plays a role in this as well, we can check yours out when you are here, if you want to take the pro-active approach, you may want to pick up some new bushings. Alot of guys go with the Mn12 or steeda IRS diff bushings, really simple to install, and we'll have the whole rear down, so no better time.

When you see how to install this rear (if you want to assist), you will probably be more confident tackling that type of job. It's a straight bolt in.

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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2004, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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I got my 3.73's gears from ebay today, and I was wondering how you can tell if a gear is actually a 3.73? don't you count the number of teeth? Thanks for any help.

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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2004, 04:46 PM
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see how many teeth you have, 3.73 gears gives you a ratio of 3.73 to 1
That means every time the the pinion gear makes 3.73 revolutions, the ring gear (and your wheels) make 1 revolution.

We can establish a ratio based on the number of teeth you have as well, ring gear vs. pinion gear

Whatcha got?

1997 Sport - Work in progress:>
MP BB 304 Teksid 4v- w IC'd / Ported M112
Need:
Eaton pulley puller (VMP or BF preferred)
H/E
Cowl Hood
FRPS
FORE Regulator
Teeps is offline  
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