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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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New info for anyone contemplating a 5-speed swap

Ok, since the 4r70 in my 94 cougar is on its last legs, I am in the middle of swapping a T-45 in it's place. Only thing is I am trying to do this on a very limited budget. Anyway, I was discussing it with a friend of mine who is a GM guy and found out that an Iroc camaro uses a push type slave cylinder with about 2 inches of throw, and the push bar that it comes with fits perfectly into the slot in the stock T-45 clutch fork. It also can be picked up at a local auto parts store for under $50. But wait it gets better. The fitting on that slave cylinder is the same type of fitting as on the SC master cylinder, and the camaro came with a flexible line that is if I remember correctly about 37" long. I bought the slave cylinder, and I am having a bracket made at this time to mount it to the transmission. My friend has a spare one of those lines lying around that he is going to give me, so this swap should be happening pretty soon. So far I have $875 in the swap, and the only thing I still need to figure out is what I am going to do about the shifter location. Anyway, just letting people know so that if someone is contemplating the swap they could do it a little cheaper.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 07:00 PM
 
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$875 including transmission? Damn, I should have done a 5-speed swap. My new 4R70W cost me a little over a grand...
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 08:06 PM
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...and where do you plan to stick the missing pedal?

Best of luck to you...but I think you will find, gathering parts is the easy part!
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 08:44 PM
 
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last i heard the shift will be somewhere under the radio! good luck buddy, send me pics of the final job!!darrell
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 10:19 PM
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Cost you over a grand?? Is it "bulletproof" or stock?

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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderbirdgod
last i heard the shift will be somewhere under the radio! good luck buddy, send me pics of the final job!!darrell
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
and the only thing I still need to figure out is what I am going to do about the shifter location.


Anyway...good luck man. I love to see people try new things to make a cheaper way to do things.

Russ

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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackicelsc
...and where do you plan to stick the missing pedal?
Um...right where the dimples are in the firewall. I have a pedal and master assembly from a SC.

Here are the costs so far
1)Trans, clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, pro 5.0 shifter, bunch of other parts associated with the swap-$700 delivered to my door.
2)Clutch pedal, master, and reservoir-$125
3)Camaro slave cylinder-$48
4)Camaro hydraulic line-free
5)Bracket to mount slave cylinder-free

As for the shifter, I was thinking about having a custom shifter handle made that would arc back and come out of the center console at an angle just beneath the information center. I figured that way I could just modify the center console instead of modifying the transmission. Anyway, I'll try to post pics while I am actually swapping it out.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 09:43 AM
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I don't know what's up with all the remarks about doing the swap (pedal goes exactly where the SC pedal goes from a 5 speed SC, and the extension has to be used to move back the shift handle)?!? All he's done is possibly found a new way to use a different clutch activation method vs. the hydraulic throw out bearing.

One question I have about using the GM slave cylinder, what is the bore diameter, and have you calculated the throw of the pedal. Don't forget hydraulics can be "interesting" when you start mixing and matching piston diameters. A one inch throw in a smaller piston/bore, may only move a larger piston/bore 1/4"... but with a lot more strength.

That’s just something to look at before you jump into this and commit to using the GM slave cylinder. (Oh, and I've planned on the same setup with an externally mounted slave cylinder...)

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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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Bore diameter on the GM slave is 5/8" I hadn't thought about how much the SC pedal would move the slave. Hopefully it will be ok. If anyone knows how to figure that out, let me know. Thanks.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 11:20 AM
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It's a matter of fluid volume. A cylinder of (x) bore and (y) stroke moves (z) volume of fluid. Then for the slave cylinder, figure in reverse. (z) volume of fluid moves a cylinder with (a) bore (b) inches of stroke.

[(x^2*pi)/4] * y = z (SC Master)

z/[(a^2*pi)/4] = b (GM Slave)

Hope it helps.

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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Makes sense. So what is the bore and throw on the SC master?

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
-97 Tbird Sport 4.6 Nice weather daily driver
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 12:27 PM
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Don't hold me to it, but I think 7/8" inch.

I'm just basing that on what RockAuto lists in their parts sections for a SC Master Cylinder.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-26-2005, 02:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashish
Cost you over a grand?? Is it "bulletproof" or stock?

Well the tranny itself only cost $500, but after a Marauder converter, a 5.4 EPC solenoid, new MLPS sensor, new TCC solenoid, tranny cooler, and J-mod stuff, the total including installation (free, 'cause I did it) was around a grand. I'm sure that the 5-speed would have cost more, but I was under the impression that it would have cost $1000-2000 more. I could have parted with a couple hundred dollars more to have the 5-speed...
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
Bore diameter on the GM slave is 5/8" I hadn't thought about how much the SC pedal would move the slave. Hopefully it will be ok. If anyone knows how to figure that out, let me know. Thanks.

Mike
Mike

The bore of the SC master is 7/8. Using it with a 5/8 bore slave is going to cause you major problems. You will be lucky if you can even push the clutch pedal. You need a slave that has a LARGER bore not a smaller bore. Small master/larger slave multiplies the force on the load (the clutch diaphram). Large master/smaller slave does just the opposite.
I have an external slave set up in my 95 LX 5 speed conversion. I have a 3/4 master & a 7/8 slave. The pedal effort is light & there is more than enough trevel to disengage the clutch.
If you are going to use the SC master you might consider a 1" slave. Contact John's Mustangs in San Diego 619-230-8866. He's the one I got my parts from & he can help you out.
Also you may want to reconsider your proposed shifter set up. If I understand it right you are having a lever made that will come out from under the area where the radio is & extending back to the normal position. I don't think you will like the shifting action all that distance is going to give you. Forget about short throws. Also do you really want to cut up your console?
This is a major modification & you will probably have to live with it for rest of the time you own the car. Because of this you want something you will be happy with & enjoy driving.
This is from the guy who did the 1st T-45 swap 6 years ago & has seen about all the problems you can run into. Trust me, do the research & don't cut corners.

Jim
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 03:05 AM
 
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what is every1 opinion on using the tranny from the sc on to a 5.0 bird? heard its easier. need ur thoughts people.
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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 10:09 AM
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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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My mistake on the slave bore. I just looked it up and the camaro slave bore is 1". So that means the hydraulics should work correctly with enough throw and not too high a pedal effort.

Mike

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-27-2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
My mistake on the slave bore. I just looked it up and the camaro slave bore is 1". So that means the hydraulics should work correctly with enough throw and not too high a pedal effort.

Mike
That is good luck. Based on that information that part of the conversion should works out fine. You didn't mention this in previous posts but have you thought about what you're going to do about having the computer reflashed? Doing the swap without getting the computer reprogrammed will cause driveability issues, constant check engine light, flashing O/D light & other odd things.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 08:54 AM Thread Starter
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I haven't thought about it too much. I figure eventually I'll get a chip programmed for it, but I don't care much about lights coming on. I figured the car would still run and drive fine and I would just ignore the lights. It already has a check engine light for the EGR passages being clogged up, so that will be nothing new. Will the computer actually make the car run poorly if it doesn't detect the transmission there? I am hesitant to get a chip burned because right now the motor is completely stock with 197000 miles on it and when it goes something else is going in it's place (haven't decided what yet, either explorer motor, or 4cam or maybe depending on how ambitious I feel come that time a V-10) so I don't want to have to shell out $300 for a chip twice. Is there any way to get the lights to go off without a chip?

-91 Cougar LS, coming soon, complete overhaul with a 427" Windsor.
-90 XR7 5-speed black on black w/sunroof, MP2, coated rotors, double intercooler, 15%OD, ported heads, comp stage 1 cam, 85mm TB, 90MM LMAF, 80# injectors, and ported big valve heads
-98 Mark VIII LSC, Procharger P600b, TR3650 swap and 3.73s.
-90 SC Automatic rustbucket winter beater
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 09:38 AM
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You shouls shell out the xtra bucks to get the flasher! Otherwise you can have a chip reburned with a new program for the cost of the chip. Click Here.

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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezal
what is every1 opinion on using the tranny from the sc on to a 5.0 bird? heard its easier. need ur thoughts people.
it works, you need some other parts f150 5.0 flywheel, and starter. but yes it works.

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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 01:23 PM
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I haven't thought about it too much. I figure eventually I'll get a chip programmed for it, but I don't care much about lights coming on. I figured the car would still run and drive fine and I would just ignore the lights. It already has a check engine light for the EGR passages being clogged up, so that will be nothing new. Will the computer actually make the car run poorly if it doesn't detect the transmission there? I am hesitant to get a chip burned because right now the motor is completely stock with 197000 miles on it and when it goes something else is going in it's place (haven't decided what yet, either explorer motor, or 4cam or maybe depending on how ambitious I feel come that time a V-10) so I don't want to have to shell out $300 for a chip twice. Is there any way to get the lights to go off without a chip?
Mike

When I first did my swap I didn't have a clue as to what to do about my computer. I had a constant check engine light (which in California is taboo with the smog nazis), a flashing O/D light plus the car ran like crap. The computer kept looking for input from a transmission that wasn't there. Without warning it would retard the spark thinking it was time for a shift & the car would slow down for an instant. It also never felt like you got full power & the idle was erratic. I tried various piggy back chips but none of them did any good. Finally one of the guys on the site hooked my up with Jerry Wroblewski who was working for Ford at the time in their transmission development department. He obviously knew how to go into the computer & make the changes. From what I understand he basically deleted all the codes that related to the automatic tranny & turned the computer into a stick shift computer. It ran like it was factory after that. A little over 2 years ago I put in a Mark VIII engine and was able to use the same computer but it needed to be reflashed again to the Mark engine parameters. Jerry is still around but doesn't work for Ford anymore. I think he is still doing the reprogramming but I'm not sure how to get ahold of him now. Maybe someone on the site knows or, at this time, there may be others that can do the reflash. If you want the car to run right you definitely need to address the computer issue. One other thing you should do is check the Tech Article section of this site under transmissions. Look for Papajohns T-45 swap article. Besides being a wealth of information there is a note towards the end of the article regarding the modification of the plug that used to plug into the automatic. This is regarding the neutral lock out so you can start the car. Also it invloves the reverse lights. Lastly look at photo 4 at the very end of the article. John is holding a metal plate that goes between the block & bell housing. It's called an engine back plate &, in case you don't know it, you will need one. It's a Mustang GT part (Ford # F6ZZ7007EA) & sells for $22.00 from 5 Star Ford.
Like I said before do the research as there are a lot of little things like this plate or the tranny plug that can't be overlooked.

Jim
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 01:50 PM
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Jim,

The Jman is the brains behind SCT now (superchips custom tuning) You can get any of his programs from Lonnie at blueoval chips and many others

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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 02:21 PM
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Jim,

The Jman is the brains behind SCT now (superchips custom tuning) You can get any of his programs from Lonnie at blueoval chips and many others
Good information. Thanks Tim. Glad to see that Lonnie is doing well. He gave me a lot of advise when I did my Mark VIII engine swap.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
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Mike

Finally one of the guys on the site hooked my up with Jerry Wroblewski who was working for Ford at the time in their transmission development department.
You're Welcome

BTW, anyone know what the bore size is for the internal slave cylinder in the 2000 LS1, T56 tranny?

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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
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You're Welcome

BTW, anyone know what the bore size is for the internal slave cylinder in the 2000 LS1, T56 tranny?
The MC of the LS1 is 15/16 and I have seen where people were using 7/8 bore MC with no ill effects, so I would guess that the Slave Cylinder is the same size (or real close) to the one from the Super Coupe. Ask on LS1 tech if you want to be sure. The hydraulics might actually work together....

Also you have a PM from me...

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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 03:44 AM
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A hydraulic connector from a Ford slave will pop right into the GM slave. I plan on using my stock master, unless I have issues.

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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 01-30-2005, 05:59 AM
 
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Transmission Swap

It's not a T45 swap but here is how I did a T5 swap. External slave and extension. Have now driven the car for 6 months with no prblems. 5L T5 Swap, Addendum, etc.
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