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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 03:27 AM Thread Starter
 
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Need help choosing tranny parts

First off I am a mechanic who repairs cars for a living. I have rebuilt hundreds of stock aod's and several stock 4r70w's. My aod's forward clutches are slipping due to an over enthusiastic warmup on a cold day. I just held the pedal at 4000 rpms till the ice melted. Possibly a cross-leak or maybe the last guy who built it set the clutches too tight. It would crawl forward in nuetral if I revved the engine before but now it revs freely. Still driving it with a little chatter on takeoff. I have found a 15k mileage '98 4r70w truck core for $400 and I'm not sure what parts won't work. I plan on reusing the frictions. I am aware of the parts in the 'Motorsport wide gear kit'. My biggest concern is what shift kit to use in order to make the 1-2 and 2-3 shift occur at the right time. I've always used the Gil Younger kits in stock aod's. I'm also dead set on a non-lockup converter. If I had an 'e' model the converter clutch would be nice but the direct shaft in an aod is rubbish. I'm considering either a Dacco 2400 stall or a B&M Holeshot 2400. If anyone knows where to get a better deal on a 3 bearing 11" converter let me know. I'm a poor boy so wasting money isn't an option.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 01:36 PM
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a lockup TC will allow more power when locked ya know.....

as far as tranny compatibility

http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny...on/index.shtml

if this is going in a 93 w/ a 5.0, 4R70W from an F150 won't bolt up... (4.6 / 5.0 bellhousing bolt patterns are different)
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 01:44 PM
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If you must use a 4R70W, you can look for a 5.0 Explorer 4R70W or one from a '94-95 Mustang GT. You'll probably need a standalone controller or swap to a Mustang computer.

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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 02:18 PM
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Is he really asking about putting the 4R70W in his 5.0 or is he asking what parts he can take out of the 4R70W?

As for the converters, Alan (DirtyDog) seems to about the best rep for making them. I would absolutely stay away from anything B&M.
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 03:11 PM
 
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In my opinion, the wide ratio kit is priceless. You could have the torque multiplication of a 4.30 rear gear while only using a 3.73. But I am poor as well. I used a B&M shift kit that I had laying around the shop. Not the best, but free was the best price. I have heard good things about Transgo, but Lentech is the sh!t. But the valvebodies are exspensive. As far as internal parts swapping from 4R70W I have no idea. I am with jamesD on the lock-up converter. I have seen cars lose up to 3 mph at the track just from going to a nonlock-up. Also unless your combo is mild, as in not making much power, I would stay away from B&M converters.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 03:16 PM
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before anyone pipes up about a jmod...

you have a 93 w/a 5.0 and i'm sure an AOD right? transgo is much better than B&M, especially on GM transmissions, so i'm sure it kicks more @$$ than b&m on an AOD..

i know the parts on an AODE and a 4R70W are similar, as the 4r just has the "wider gears" and a few other upgrades, more info found in Jerry's article.

i think Jerry's article talks a little about AODs as well
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I'm using the wide ratio geartrain with the original aod case and tv cable. I have a brand new valve body and I know the 1-2 and 2-3 shift will be way too high for my stock motor. I don't want to race...yet. Just want to be able to spin the tires with my 3.08 posi and make it more fun to drive. I'm wondering why everyone dogs b&m converters..have you run one? I had a 10 in. b&m converter in an old Nova with a .600 lift solid roller 355 that never failed. Dacco has never done me wrong except years ago when they had a careless parts washer and I was getting trash out of the converters. That's been remedied. I'm looking to spend 300 for a converter and no more.

There is a deserted road that I judge a cars power with. Uphill run to a tree maybe 500-700 ft. My tbird ran 55 when I got it. Only mods are removed resonator and hollowed converters[free], 95 model 4.6 airflow meter[bigger hole and free], hacked silencer to act as ram air..not fully removed. Now she runs 63 to the tree. Must be 20 ponies freed up there!

I might go as far as a cam swap and Explorer longblock if the motor ever blows. Headers and better exhaust are definitely planned.
If the trans mod doesn't give enough umph 3.55 or 3.73 gears will.
Now you get the idea of what I have planned for this car...daily driver that begs to have the throttle mashed. I gave up on racing years ago...too expensive breaking crap and making it faster.
If I wanted a race car I'd have a rattletrap Chevy or maybe a fox 'stang Heck its too costly to race a Ford. Like I said I'm a poor boy
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 07:22 PM
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i have a dacco TC in my Nova now

Alan is pretty straight up and sells a decent product for the 4R @ $225 plus core (i dunno if he has spares) or if that applies to AOD TCs
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-14-2005, 07:58 PM Thread Starter
 
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I bought my core today. Good working unit from a '98 F-150 with a 4.2. Best $250 I coulda spent. Questions.
#1 Is the rear output ring gear the same spline as AOD?
#2 Is forward drum spline same as AOD?
#3 kinda silly...is the input shaft the same spline in the converter as an AOD. I can only wonder what a TCI input shaft looks like and wonder if the spline is the same as a 4r70w with the lockup nipple hacked off. Get the picture- I would like to use the input and stubshaft from the 4r and run a non-lockup converter.

If I had both trannys apart at the same time this would be easy. I'm just afraid of tying up a lift too long waiting on finding some oddball shaft or something.

The clutches all look brand new and I'm debating reusing all but the band. I wouldn't do that in a customers car... it ain't my money but it would be my comeback if the lining fell off.

I bid on ebay and won a tci 3000 stall nonlock converter for $100. If thats too much stall maybe someone could re-stator it. Oh well at least it'll roast the tires now!

btw I don't get many newer transmissions since they are so well built. I always wondered what a mechanical diode was like. Made me want to go fishing hearing the clicker! The snap ring appears very tight and strong. Maybe the reason people install spiral snap rings is because the remove the original and stretch it? If there is a real problem with the intermediate one way clutch snapring where do I get an improved one?

There is a $50 core on the no-warranty transmission and they told me put it back together with what parts I have left to get my core back! If anyone local wants this pile of scrap core let me know...I'm just using the geartrain. Case, valve body solenoids ect all in great shape.

Last edited by icantdrive55; 02-14-2005 at 08:07 PM.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 02-15-2005, 07:24 AM
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1) yes i believe so....the best shaft to use is the Mark VIII with the governor feed holes blocked - un block them and use it.....or just use your correct length AOD shaft.
2) Once again, i belive so
3) Not sure, I have wondered myself - cheap alternantive to hard AOD shaft.

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
 
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I finally have all my parts. Now all I need is time to install them.
mercon V $20
clutches and steels$67 4 grooved intermediate 6 direct steels and 6 direct clutches from Ford
cooler $60 Tru-Cool lpd 12x11x1.5 28k
valve body $50 brand new
overhaul kit inc. $87
band, pump bushing, filter, superior aodhp shift kit
converter $100 new unused tci 433200 3000 stall non lockup from ebay [i know.... it looks cool anyway]
'98 4r70w core $250 like new from 4.2 p/u-- still have $50 core on it
tci input shaft $140 439600 1 pc. for the non l/u converter
total $774

Hopefully the case, output shaft and pump are ok...those will be the only parts I reuse. If the converter stalls too high there are about 11 oem stators that fit the 10" tci converter. Now I'm gonna have to buy some 3.73 or 4.11 gears to keep from slipping the converter too much. Then the exhaust and engine mods...hmm this tranny goin out got me started. Maybe a Bauman controller and a jmod in the core woulda been better. Coulda had a dirtydog lockup converter then I already bought aod parts when I found out the trans controller existed though

Hopefully the gearing and converter will get my shift points around 5000 rpm-who knows?

The core had early style direct clutches with thin steels and smooth intermediates. Forward clutches will be reused-they're like new[as were all the frictions]. Seems only 5.4's had grooved intermediates and thick direct steels in '98. I have ALL my parts for about the same $ as a new md drum and wide ratio kit from Ford.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-03-2005, 09:20 PM
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AOD and 4r70w input splines to the torque converter are very different. The 4r70w uses a 31 spline input the same as c6 and e40d etc.... transmissions. The aod uses 2 input shafts I am not sure of the spline count but they are absolutely not the same.
I suggest a transgo shift kit for a aod the best part is the high rev governor which will allow you to set your shift points.
Hope that helps
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-04-2005, 08:52 AM
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So are you building an AOD or the 4R?

If you do the 4R....don't forget the Jmod, that is one of the first things I would do. As for controling shift points, DirtyD mentioned governor for the AOD, but if you do the 4R the buemann TCS is top notch!

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-04-2005, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
 
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I'm building the aod.

Got my 1 pc. input shaft from Summit today- it's beefy- don't think it will ever break. The 4r's direct drum will split or strip first. It's made for the TCI converter I'm using.

Tried putting it in the 4r's forward drum and it cut its own deeper splines till I got to the middle groove. Had someone else pumping the press while I watched it. OOPS! Had the drum supported on the outside and warped it

I'm pretty sure the '93 aod has a stamped forward drum without the middle groove that caused a bind. Now I know to support a stamped drum in the center-doh! Just was too lazy to find an adapter with a hole for the stubshaft to put pressure in the middle and thought the shaft would go in easier.

Hopefully the drum in my car isn't smoked but aod parts are cheap. Heck, I would probably use the aod drum anyway after seeing how the new aod shaft had slightly larger splines.

edit- the '93 aod drum is exactly like the 4r70w except for the shaft.

Last edited by icantdrive55; 03-28-2005 at 07:54 AM.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
 
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Finally got it done. The factory output shaft was a strong 7 tooth. The non-lockup input shaft has C6 splines. WOT shifts 1-2 @ 5200 rpm. 2-3 shifts @ 4700 with the wide ratio gearset. Cruising shifts seem normal, just barely later. Used factory governor with hollow valve and yellow spring. Superior AOD-HP shift kit shifts nice with brand new valve body. 10" converter stalls at a very loose 2500 rpm. Very little rpm drop on the firm shifts due to converter. Spins the tires on a floored takeoff now. Powerstall and it keeps smoking 'em down the road.

Once on the highway I wish I had a complete 4r70w with a Bauman tcs Overdrive slips the converter at anything under 2500 rpm. I'm hoping 3.73 gears in place of 3.08 will remedy the slippage of the converter. The monster tranny cooler is working hard on the highway! Fluid gets pretty warm at 70 mph. Stays cool cruising around town.

There is a deserted road I test acceleration on. My car ran 63 mph 'to the tree' before the overhaul. Now it runs 60. I always let it shift at 4500 rpm into 2nd. Now the engine can't handle 5200 rpm shifts. At 4800 or so it kinda levels off. The car feels better and launches better so e.t. must be better. Looks like I need to address the powerband of the engine for the higher shifts and gear it to properly use the converter.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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I set the tv pressure with a gauge today. Got in a hurry to drive it yesterday night. Set it on the low side about 30 psi with 5/16 gauge. It was set 40 psi. Now the 1-2 shift is 4800 rpm. There was a minivan on the deserted road today so I couldn't test it. Drove down the highway again and there is no way it's streetable without some 3.73 gears. Overdrive slips the converter below 70. At 80 or 90 the od slippage goes away. Smelled paint burning off the converter after the highway drive. One 28,000 btu cooler isn't enough. It's alot more fun around town but needs some gears and more motor.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 07:42 AM
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Sounds fishy to me.....smell burning paint, cooler isn't enough, OD slips? I am no expert, but I have never installed a tranny that I worked on and had these effects.

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-29-2005, 11:19 AM
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He has too much stall for his rpm range. He is running a very inefficient converter rated at 3000 rpm in the 1800 rpm range, The end result heat, poor economy and a fried transmission.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-30-2005, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
 
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Yeah, I just have to hurry up and put 3.73 gears in. OD doesn't slip at 80 mph. But hey, $100 for a new 3000 stall [actually 2500] what a bargain. The converter is a 10" made out of a GM 125 core. I honestly don't like it except the way it launches. Lockup is sorely missed. The damper springs in the stock reman HS converter were broken ever since I've had the car. That's why I wanted a non-lockup. This converter is kinda like 1/4 mile race only. Only feels good when the pedal is floored.
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