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post #1 of 55 (permalink) Old 11-30-2006, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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supercoupe clutch master cylinder

Hey
Does anybody know what the diameter and stroke are for the supercoupe clutch master cylinder. thanks.

Will

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post #2 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 12:42 PM
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The bore is 7/8". Not sure about the stroke, probably about 3". I think I have a trashed in the garage. If I haven't tossed it yet, I'll measure the stroke tonight.

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post #3 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 08:36 PM
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Sorry, I must have tossed that old MC. But going from memory, the stroke is at least 2", and no more than 3". I can tell you that it's enough to properly operate my Wilwood slave cylinder.

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post #4 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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How hard is your clutch pedal? I mismatched my slave and master so i didn't get good results. Also how much is needed to get the clutch to release fully? i think the wilwood slave has a 1.312 inch stroke so is that enough or is it just disengageing. Thanks.

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post #5 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechman1984
How hard is your clutch pedal? I mismatched my slave and master so i didn't get good results. Also how much is needed to get the clutch to release fully? i think the wilwood slave has a 1.312 inch stroke so is that enough or is it just disengageing. Thanks.

Will
It's significantly stiffer than the mushy stock setups, but not annoyingly hard. Most everybody that drives it compliments the feel over the stock setups. Also, I have a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch and pressure plate.

The Wilwood easily has enough throw to disengage the clutch. If you decide to use this setup, let me know. I can help keep you from making a couple of mistakes I made.

Also, on the MC stroke, you have to measure the throw on the pedal. It just occurred to me that even if the MC could move 3", it's the pedal that controls the actual stroke length.

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post #6 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 10:49 PM
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Are you using an external slave or a throwout bearing? If it is external, then a 13/16" bore slave will work just fine. A 94/95 4cyl. Chevy S10 slave cylinder is the exact right size and uses the same style fitting as the SC master does. That's how I did my swap, and I think it is the best bet because it is an off the shelf part that can be had for $50 on the same day you find you need it, and having it external makes it very easy to access instead of having to drop the trans out if something goes wrong with the slave.

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post #7 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
Are you using an external slave or a throwout bearing? If it is external, then a 13/16" bore slave will work just fine. A 94/95 4cyl. Chevy S10 slave cylinder is the exact right size and uses the same style fitting as the SC master does. That's how I did my swap, and I think it is the best bet because it is an off the shelf part that can be had for $50 on the same day you find you need it, and having it external makes it very easy to access instead of having to drop the trans out if something goes wrong with the slave.

Mike
Isn't that a push-style slave cylinder? I considered it, but didn't want to try and build the necessary brackets to make it work (or maybe I'm thinking of the Camaro slave cylinder?). I went with the Wilwood, which is a pull-style slave cylinder. It sits right where the cable would be anchored on the bell housing. It's a 7/8" bore, just slightly bigger than the S-10 part. I did have to get creative on the plumbing, though.

It's cool that there are several different working methods of operating the clutch. It gives anyone considering the swap several options to choose from.

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post #8 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-01-2006, 11:43 PM
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It is a push type design. I had someone fab up the bracket for me, but it isn't that complicated a design. It's basically just a piece of 3/8" plate steel where the slave mounts to, and that bolts to the bell housing and then it has a strut welded to it that goes back and bolts to the rear one of those 2 tabs on the side of the trans. The camaro slave is almost identical, but it has a 1" bore, and that doesn't give enough throw to disengage the clutch. I tried the camaro part first, but when it didn't work I did a little research (read looked through a pile of slave cylinders at advance auto parts) and found the S10 unit. As for plumbing, I originally thought that would be the easiest part, but I actually couldn't find anyone to make the line for me cause no hydraulic shop had ever seen those fittings before. I ended up hacking up a camaro line for the fittings, then I got a length of the right hose, and I had to put the fittings in the freezer and the line in boiling water then shove them together really fast. Once they are in though, the only way they are coming out is to be cut out. It took quite a while of thinking though to figure out how to make the line. Now that I know, its really pretty easy, but there were 2 days when I thought the car might never be on the road because I couldn't get a stupid hydraulic line. When I did my swap, I didn't know about the wilwood pull type slave, but I probably wouldn't have used it anyway just because of the off the shelf aspect of the S10 one. I didn't want to be in a position where I have to wait a week for my slave cylinder to get to me in the mail if it started leaking or something.

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post #9 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 02:07 AM Thread Starter
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I am using a Howe slave cylinder (its almost exactly a wilwood minus stroke lenght) and i am struggling with the master though. I cant find a master that will give me the fluid volume displacement i need. For the slave i am running i need something like 0.79 in^3 and the largest master that will still give me an ideal ratio will only give me 0.59 in^3 which corresponds to one inch of travel i believe. So i guess i am going to try and run a stock supercoupe mc. Does any one know if a stock ranger mc us the same as the supercoupe or maybe a good substitute.

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post #10 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 10:16 AM
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I was way wrong; the stroke on the Wilwood is 1.38"
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/006-...1-SC/index.asp
That's plenty to operate the clutch on my car. What MC are you using now? How do you have the slave mounted? Go to this thread about my swap, and look at the 5th picture down to see the final version of how it's mounted:
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=83698

A '95 Ranger MC from a 4-cylinder is a 5/8" bore. If my hydraulic logic is right, that's a worse choice than the 7/8" Super Coupe MC. www.rockauto.com is a good source for this information. Just look up the part, and it generally has the size.

As for the Wilwood slave, it's rebuildable. I've already done that once, and then gave it a little more protection when I reinstalled it. The o-rings are over-the-counter items at a good parts store. Just by coincidence, I happen to have an o-ring collection from a parts store, so I never had to leave my garage. Or you could keep the $15 rebuild kit on hand. It has the o-rings plus a new return spring and fittings.

For the plumbing, I drilled and tapped the end of the Super Couple MC with pipe threads and installed a 90* fitting. Then I purchased a Longacre clutch line kit that had all the fittings and the line to connect that to the Wilwood slave. And yes, if you trim the "shroud" part back where the stock fitting attaches and tap into the thick plastic on the MC, it works just fine. No leaks after about 10,000 miles.

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post #11 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Well i think you have that backwards the smaller the bore the less force there is on the pedal, the larger the bore the higher the force on the pedal (all in relation to the slave side), i.e. a 1 in slave would be better with a 5/8 in master then a 1 inch master. Does the sc master have some kind of weird fitting for the line is that what i am gathering from you post.

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post #12 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 01:40 PM
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Yep the SC has some sort of a quick disconnect fitting that just slides in and then is anchored with a cotter pin...no threads

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post #13 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 01:48 PM
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Yes the SC master has a weird fitting. Some people have tapped the end of the SC master and used a regular brake line style fitting, but I don't really trust that considering how thin the plastic is at that point. It just seems like it is doomed to fail eventually.

As for figuring out your problem, what is the bore diameter of the slave that you have right now? Also you mentioned the stroke of the slave, but that really shouldn't matter. Either you have enough stroke to disengage the clutch and the master needs to be sized to push the slave enough, or you don't have enough stroke in the slave, and no matter what master you use it won't work. I know for a fact that both a 7/8" bore slave and a 13/16" bore slave will work just fine with an SC master. I also know that a 1" slave is too large for the SC master.

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post #14 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechman1984
Well i think you have that backwards the smaller the bore the less force there is on the pedal, the larger the bore the higher the force on the pedal (all in relation to the slave side), i.e. a 1 in slave would be better with a 5/8 in master then a 1 inch master. Does the sc master have some kind of weird fitting for the line is that what i am gathering from you post.

Will
I guess it depends on your goal.
He is worried about not having enough stroke on the slave. A smaller MC will be less effort, but it will also push less fluid, making the stroke of the slave shorter than with a larger diameter MC. That's what I meant by "worse".

Re: tapping the supercoupe MC
You have to trim that thin portion off, then tap into the thick plastic below, right at the body of the MC. I wish I hadn't tossed that old MC so I could show what I mean.

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post #15 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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I am using a i believe its a 7/8 in slave. I orginally ordered a wilwood one inch master but the force required to push the clutch in was really hard and i do mean hard. I also didn't really care for the fit of the master in there it was not ideal. Finally the clutch would disengage with the first wetup but it was really only at the bottom of the pedal stroke and i was concerned that while the clutch appeared to be disengageing i was thinking it might still be in loose contact and wearing the clutch out faster then normal. I guess to sum it up it worked with a 7/8 slave and a one inch master but was really hard and i was not sure if the clutch was fully disengaged. So i am still looking for alternatives. I was thinking of trying some tricks using a moment arm to disengage the clutch with the slave actuating it but thats another story...

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post #16 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 03:41 PM
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If a 1" slave was too hard, then stepping down to a 7/8" slave would be a bad idea cause it will be a little harder. I personally like a clutch pedal to be kind of hard, but I love the feel of the clutch in my 94, and that has a slightly smaller slave than the master. Sounds to me like you either need to find a master with a bore larger than 1", or find a smaller slave to work with either the SC or wilwood master.

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post #17 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMikeyL
If a 1" slave was too hard, then stepping down to a 7/8" slave would be a bad idea cause it will be a little harder. I personally like a clutch pedal to be kind of hard, but I love the feel of the clutch in my 94, and that has a slightly smaller slave than the master. Sounds to me like you either need to find a master with a bore larger than 1", or find a smaller slave to work with either the SC or wilwood master.

Mike
You're going backwards. He had a 1" MC, and a 7/8" slave. That was too much effort. To make the effort easier, he needs to go smaller with the MC.

In general, to increase effort, use a bigger MC or a smaller SC.
To decrease effort, use a smaller MC, or a bigger SC

Will:
I know for sure a SuperCoupe master works well with the Wilwood slave (and I assume the Howe, as it appears to be exactly the same as the Wilwood). If it wasn't realeasing until the very end of the pedal movement, maybe you didn't have enough preload on the TOB. The clutch arm shouldn't be hanging loose when the clutch is engaged. There should be some tension in the system at all times.

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post #18 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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So the TOB should be contacting the clutch fingers with a few pounds of force on it at all times.

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post #19 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechman1984
So the TOB should be contacting the clutch fingers with a few pounds of force on it at all times.

Will
Yep, although I don't know how you would go about measuring it. I took mine to a trusted transmission shop after the install and had him look at a couple of things, the preload being one. He said I had it about right. Basically, I kept tightening the nut on the pull rod until I could just barely move the clutch fork by hand. You don't want the clutch to be disengaged at all, but you need to take up 99.5% of the slack in the system. It's hard to describe; I hope this helps.

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post #20 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah that definately helps i think i was more in the range of 98-99% there on the slack. I still am not sure what to do about a master cylinder though. The supercoupe one will probably solve my probelms the quickest and easiest but i dont like the idea of tapping plastic. is there any way to use the stock sc line.

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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 10:29 AM
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I can make a line that has the SC fitting on one end, but I don't know how you would go about attaching the fitting for the slave on the other end. The hose that you have to use for the SC fitting isn't exactly a standard type hose so I don't know if you'll be able to adapt it to the fitting on the other end.

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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 11:53 AM
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The ieal fitting would be an adapter from the Super Coupe fitting to either pipe threads or -AN. That would make it very easy to use any aftermarket slave or hydraulic TOB. Here's a thread I found a while back, where some guy says McLeod makes such a fitting for $25. I never called to check on it, since I did the drill and tap thing. In the thread, it's for a Chevy application, but my understanding is that they are the same as the Ford:
http://www.torquecentral.com/showthr...ht=t56+adapter

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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 04:53 PM
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When I did my swap, I took my MC fitting to a tubing shop and a guy there took the plastic pipe off and silver soldered an -AN fitting on. I used that with an external slave and it works great. It's a 7/8 slave with the stock MC and I love the feel of it. It's a little stiff, but I like it that way. I can't stand it when you step on the pedal in some cars and you can't tell if you are doing anything.

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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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So is it a tough job to tap the end of the sc mc or is it just time consuming. I am not really sold on the idea itself but i like tapping alot better then buying a $50 fitting.

Jimbobicus
What excatly do you mean. do you have any pics or diagrams to show me. Are you saying that you used the stock mc line and had a fitting soldered onto the line so the line can then be plugged into the mc like stock.

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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
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So is it a tough job to tap the end of the sc mc or is it just time consuming. I am not really sold on the idea itself but i like tapping alot better then buying a $50 fitting.
Nope. You'll need the tap and the correct size drill bit. Try a plumbing supply store or a good local hardware store for the tap; Lowes and Home Depot didn't carry it. It shouldn't take more than half an hour. You'll want to trim all the thin stuff off, though, and tap into the meaty section of the MC. The pipe threads are tapered, and that's what makes the seal.

The trick is to tap it just far enough to get almost all the threads engaged and not have the body of your fitting hit the MC. Tap it too shallow, and you don't get good thread engagement. Tap it too deep, and the fittiing bottoms out without getting a tight seal. So, go a little ways, back it out, and test the fitting.

Also, I couldn't figure out how to disassemble the MC; it may not come apart. So, I rigged a mount for my shop vac, and did the whole operation with the vac pulling the debris away. It's not the perfect way, but it seems to have worked.

Edit to add: If you want to try Jimbo's way, I think i have a replacement SuperCoupe line you can have.

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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Are you saying that you used the stock mc line and had a fitting soldered onto the line so the line can then be plugged into the mc like stock.
Actually the fitting was soldered onto the actual fitting that connects into the MC




I whipped this up from memory in Solidworks in about 5 minutes, so please forgive any inaccuracies...

The end with the groove is pinned into the MC and the flared end goes into the stock plastic pipe. What I had done with mine was to get rid of the plastic pipe and solder the fitting onto the flared end. It works great with my braided stainless hose going to the external slave because it's just a standard fitting after the oddball SC master cylinder fitting.


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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 06:35 PM
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Another thing about the McLeod fitting... There may not be room to use it. You would have to use a 90* -AN fitting on that adapter. Just going from memory, I don't think there's room between the MC and the shock tower.

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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbobicus
The end with the groove is pinned into the MC and the flared end goes into the stock plastic pipe. What I had done with mine was to get rid of the plastic pipe and solder the fitting onto the flared end. It works great with my braided stainless hose going to the external slave because it's just a standard fitting after the oddball SC master cylinder fitting.
That's about right. The only minor correction is that the tubing goes inside the flared end, and then the straight/tube section is crimped into the plastic tubing. I know, because I'm staring at the clutch line I bought a while back...

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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 12-07-2006, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobey
I was way wrong; the stroke on the Wilwood is 1.38"
http://www.wilwood.com/Products/006-...1-SC/index.asp
That's plenty to operate the clutch on my car. What MC are you using now? How do you have the slave mounted? Go to this thread about my swap, and look at the 5th picture down to see the final version of how it's mounted:
http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=83698

A '95 Ranger MC from a 4-cylinder is a 5/8" bore. If my hydraulic logic is right, that's a worse choice than the 7/8" Super Coupe MC. www.rockauto.com is a good source for this information. Just look up the part, and it generally has the size.

As for the Wilwood slave, it's rebuildable. I've already done that once, and then gave it a little more protection when I reinstalled it. The o-rings are over-the-counter items at a good parts store. Just by coincidence, I happen to have an o-ring collection from a parts store, so I never had to leave my garage. Or you could keep the $15 rebuild kit on hand. It has the o-rings plus a new return spring and fittings.

For the plumbing, I drilled and tapped the end of the Super Couple MC with pipe threads and installed a 90* fitting. Then I purchased a Longacre clutch line kit that had all the fittings and the line to connect that to the Wilwood slave. And yes, if you trim the "shroud" part back where the stock fitting attaches and tap into the thick plastic on the MC, it works just fine. No leaks after about 10,000 miles.
I just checked out your link. That's a nice setup.
When I did mine 7 years ago I looked at the Wilwood pull slave but didn't consider it as I didn't want to hassle figuring out how to mount it. I went with the McLeod internal TO/slave & used a stock SC master (by the way the stroke on the SC is 1 1/2"). I initially used the stock SC hydraulic line & had a shop install an AN fitting at the other end to connect to the McLeod unit. I actually still have that modified line if anyone needs one. The pedal effort was fairly high & was uncomfortable in traffic. PapaJohn machined an adapter that allows you to use a Wilwood master (or any other with the same mounting flange). I ended up using a 5/8 master with the McLeod unit & the pedal effort was much better. I still was not that happy with the McLeod unit so about 3 years ago a company in San Diego called John's Mustangs fabbed a bracket for my T-45 to mount an external slave to. I now have a 3/4 master with a 7/8 slave (push) actuating a stock Mustang clutch fork & TO bearing. The pedal effort was reduced even more to stock Mustang levels. This set up has been trouble free & a pleasure to drive.
This string does show that there are more than 1 way to do the swap.

Happy shifting
Bymet is offline  
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