Mustang Hub Swap Question - need advice and part #s - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-04-2017, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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Mustang Hub Swap Question - need advice and part #s

All:
I'm starting on a hub swap as my next project (AFTER I mount my new Bimarco grip halo seat) as I finally found a deal on 4 mustang 17" wheels for $100 (the ugly 94-95 17s for a reasonable price were harder than expected to find here in CA and I still need 2-4 more as race spares).
I now have a few questions:

1) I know I need (4) front hubs aka F6ZZ-1104-AA. Need four b/c I have two spindles on my car and two as race spares (because lemons racecar).

2) For the spindle attachment nuts, I see the ford part # quoted: F3LY-3B447-A
Q: However, when looking for front retainer nuts on ford parts websites, I find this part # instead: W710084-S439 for both tbird and mustangs. Is this the one I want?
https://www.fordgenuineautoparts.com...t-w710084s439/

3) Front Rotors: I know I will need to have (4) front rotors to match the new bolt pattern (again: on car + racespares) but since Mustang Rotors are so cheap ($20/ea on Rockauto), I'm not sure that redrilling them is worth the effort and/or labor cost. Any problems with using Mustang rotors? Tbird rotors are 10.87" and the Mustang rotors are 10.88". I'm currently using the mustang calipers (PBR swap) and mustang caliper brackets on my existing tbird spindles so I don't think the 0.01" will mess me up but it would be nice to get confirmation here.
Q: Please LMK if you think using mustang vs tbird front rotors will be an issue...

4) Rear hubs: I know i need to redrill them and MM has already offered me a DIY tool which should allow me to redrill both my rear rotors and the existing hubs. This means that i just need to buy new studs
ARP 100-7703 (1/2-20in or Moroso 46185 x 5)

Q: Since I believe my existing rear axle bearings are original (from 93-95 depending on which donor they came from), should I replace them? I dont' feel any slop with the wheel in the air but these have gone through a LOT of abuse over the last few years
Q: Do I need to pack the bearings with Moly grease during the install?
Q: If I do so, what do I need to replace besides the bearings themselves? I see a bearing retaining ring that they recommend you replace (at $1 that's a no-brainer) and I see other feedback that you should also replace the spindle nut. If so, what is the part # for the spindle nut?

Thanks in advance for your answers. As with my splitport and 5.0 swap, I'll write up a DIY when I start this project.
Regards,
-g

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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-04-2017, 06:33 PM
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Comments and random thoughts:

Use the motorcraft nuts; DO NOT use the dorman ones, they ruin the spindle. GM has a thread somewhere here about it.

The mustang fronts are the same; I was given a mustang set of disks early on in my mn12 career (lol), and the only thing different is the holes.

MM is a really nice guy.

I would redo the bearings; they're cheap, and easy to replace with a press or even a jaw type puller, as I've seen on the web. I have a press.

They are "SET 49" TIMKEN bearings, look between the inner races and see if there's grease; I use Timken Grease.

In my experience with 3 sets so far, Some are greased, some are not, lol.

There's a circlip that you remove; I've never replaced it, it sits in a deep groove, and the load is sideways, if at all.

I'd spend for new axles; rebuilt ones are $60, and our OG ones can be rebuilt. Rayo mentioned using a piece of PVC pipe to disassemble them, and it works great.

Avoid slotted disks; they vibrate like hell on heavy braking, drilled only is better.

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-04-2017, 06:44 PM
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i just pulled a set of cobra rear hubs with less than 1000 miles on them off of my car that one could buy really cheap
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-04-2017, 07:45 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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How cheap?

Dibs if price is right, and S4Gunn doesn't want them; this isn't my thread.

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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-05-2017, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
How cheap?

Dibs if price is right, and S4Gunn doesn't want them; this isn't my thread.
Meh i dunno 75 Shipped?
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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-05-2017, 12:15 PM
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1) Sounds reasonable.
2) I have always re-used those nuts. I know Ford says not to, but I have done it hundreds of times, on cars that have then driven hundreds of thousands of miles, and I have never had one back off. A couple times, the nuts were rusted up, and I wasn't comfortable re-using them, but that was only when the center cap had been missing, and these were cars in NJ. Given that you are in California, they should be fine.
3) The Mustang rotors will obviously work fine with the Mustang hubs and Mustang calipers. Actually the Tbird rotors won't even work with the Mustang hubs because the hub bore is different. I don't see any reason to buy 4 rotors since they are not likely to get broken in an accident. Given that you have 17" wheels now though, I would forget about those brakes and run the 13" cobra brake setup in the front. You will never be able to corner faster than the miatas and e30s, but if you can out-run them on the straights and out brake them going into the corners, then you can pretty consistently pull away from them.
4) Re-drilling the rear hubs is definitely the cheapest way out. Doing that, you re-drill the hubs and the rotors. With the tool I have, you can do it on the car, and then as long as your bearings don't have any play and aren't making any noise, there is no reason to mess with them. Another option for the rears is to replace the hubs with 99-04 Cobra rear hubs, but those are not available aftermarket, and are quite expensive. This option will also pretty much require new bearings, since they usually get damaged pressing the hub out, and it would also require cobra rear rotors and caliper relocation brackets. If you do press the hubs out and get new bearings, just press them in as they are. Do not add grease or take the new bearings apart. The retaining snap ring is sometimes re-usable, but sometimes it gets bent during removal, so if you are pressing the bearings out, those would be good to have on hand. Also sometimes the hubs themselves will be worn on the shaft that presses into the hub, but that usually only happens if the bearings are shot and you keep driving on it. As for the rear spindle nut, they are obsolete from Ford, and the aftermarket ones are not right, so the general consensus now is to double them up to prevent it from loosening up.
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-07-2017, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
i just pulled a set of cobra rear hubs with less than 1000 miles on them off of my car that one could buy really cheap
Thanks for the offer but since it seems like I would need the caliper relocation brackets and Cobra rotors, I'm going to pass.
I'm sure Grog6 will give them a good home.
-g
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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-07-2017, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MadMikeyL View Post
1) Sounds reasonable.
2) I have always re-used those nuts. I know Ford says not to, but I have done it hundreds of times, on cars that have then driven hundreds of thousands of miles, and I have never had one back off. A couple times, the nuts were rusted up, and I wasn't comfortable re-using them, but that was only when the center cap had been missing, and these were cars in NJ. Given that you are in California, they should be fine.
3) The Mustang rotors will obviously work fine with the Mustang hubs and Mustang calipers. Actually the Tbird rotors won't even work with the Mustang hubs because the hub bore is different. I don't see any reason to buy 4 rotors since they are not likely to get broken in an accident. Given that you have 17" wheels now though, I would forget about those brakes and run the 13" cobra brake setup in the front. You will never be able to corner faster than the miatas and e30s, but if you can out-run them on the straights and out brake them going into the corners, then you can pretty consistently pull away from them.
4) Re-drilling the rear hubs is definitely the cheapest way out. Doing that, you re-drill the hubs and the rotors. With the tool I have, you can do it on the car, and then as long as your bearings don't have any play and aren't making any noise, there is no reason to mess with them. Another option for the rears is to replace the hubs with 99-04 Cobra rear hubs, but those are not available aftermarket, and are quite expensive. This option will also pretty much require new bearings, since they usually get damaged pressing the hub out, and it would also require cobra rear rotors and caliper relocation brackets. If you do press the hubs out and get new bearings, just press them in as they are. Do not add grease or take the new bearings apart. The retaining snap ring is sometimes re-usable, but sometimes it gets bent during removal, so if you are pressing the bearings out, those would be good to have on hand. Also sometimes the hubs themselves will be worn on the shaft that presses into the hub, but that usually only happens if the bearings are shot and you keep driving on it. As for the rear spindle nut, they are obsolete from Ford, and the aftermarket ones are not right, so the general consensus now is to double them up to prevent it from loosening up.
2) What's a center cap? I think I sold mine years ago so I need to check the condition of my spindle nuts.

3) How confident are you that my rear bearings aren't all buggered up? They are original but don't wobble when they are in the air and I push on the wheel. I supposed that if I notice them getting shitty, I can always swap axles to another one of questionable repute (I come to the track with 2 spares after all).

4) Thanks for the guidance on the rear spindle nuts. I don't have 2x them and the Dorman ones will bugger up the threads so I'll have to see what I can do here (maybe make a JY run to get spare rear spindle/hub nuts w/ my impact gun).


NOTE: I found that Autozone Loan-a-tool has a torque wrench that goes to 250ft-lb so I think I'm good
OEM 1/2 in. drive adjustable click type torque wrench 27043 - Read 3 Reviews on OEM #27043

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Last edited by S4gunn; 08-07-2017 at 04:39 PM.
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
3) How confident are you that my rear bearings aren't all buggered up? They are original but don't wobble when they are in the air and I push on the wheel. I supposed that if I notice them getting shitty, I can always swap axles to another one of questionable repute (I come to the track with 2 spares after all).

4) Thanks for the guidance on the rear spindle nuts. I don't have 2x them and the Dorman ones will bugger up the threads so I'll have to see what I can do here (maybe make a JY run to get spare rear spindle/hub nuts w/ my impact gun).


NOTE: I found that Autozone Loan-a-tool has a torque wrench that goes to 250ft-lb so I think I'm good
OEM 1/2 in. drive adjustable click type torque wrench 27043 - Read 3 Reviews on OEM #27043
If the wheel has no play with it in the air, the bearing is fine. The bearing is pressed into the knuckle, then the hub pressed into the bearing. So a spare would need to be an entire knuckle with the same bolt pattern hub. The axle (I assume you mean the CV/halfshaft) wouldn't help a bad hub bearing.

I have bought the caged rear axle nuts new a few years ago. You could probably find some NOS but I just double them up. The Dorman ones that are bad I think are for the front. I'm not sure what the new recommended OEM replacement is. I bought the longest HF breaker bar they have (25"?) and just put all my weight on it to 'torque' the nut. Then do the same for the second nut.

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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 06:26 PM Thread Starter
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If the wheel has no play with it in the air, the bearing is fine. The bearing is pressed into the knuckle, then the hub pressed into the bearing. So a spare would need to be an entire knuckle with the same bolt pattern hub. The axle (I assume you mean the CV/halfshaft) wouldn't help a bad hub bearing.

I have bought the caged rear axle nuts new a few years ago. You could probably find some NOS but I just double them up. The Dorman ones that are bad I think are for the front. I'm not sure what the new recommended OEM replacement is. I bought the longest HF breaker bar they have (25"?) and just put all my weight on it to 'torque' the nut. Then do the same for the second nut.
My front spares are the entire spindle/hub assemblies. I will be swapping the hubs out on those.
My rear race spares are axle+knuckle sets. I will be redrilling those rear hubs for the new bolt pattern.

Thanks for the guidance on how you tightened it.

If I find a bad hub bearing at the track, I'll just swap axles. We did that in our last race when we lost a wheel (the studs sheared off).
-g

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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 08:11 PM
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Meh i dunno 75 Shipped?
PM me your paypal, and I'll take those off your hands.

Now to see Dave for brackets...

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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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I ordered the front hubs yesterday and took a look at my spare front spindles.

Q: How are the dust covers stuck on the hubs?
Before I drill a hole and/or destroy them taking off the covers, are replacements available?

While I don't think dust covers are absolutely necessary for us (car is garaged and only goes out once or twice a year), we DO race in the rain though so having them is better than not having them.
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 01:52 PM
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When removing with a prying device with a steel forcing device , be extremely careful not to
pierce the dust car.

In other words, be easy with the hammer and screw driver or you are going to put a hole in the lip.

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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 06:24 PM
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Just beat the shit out of it
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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When removing with a prying device with a steel forcing device , be extremely careful not to
pierce the dust car.

In other words, be easy with the hammer and screw driver or you are going to put a hole in the lip.
Just beat the shit out of it


I love how these two answers contradict themselves!!


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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-10-2017, 08:36 PM
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Use a small chisel and a small hammer, and tap the chisel in right where the cap meets the hub, and it will come out. To re-install, just use the small hammer to tap it in around the edge.
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 01:00 PM
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Use a small chisel and a small hammer, and tap the chisel in right where the cap meets the hub, and it will come out. To re-install, just use the small hammer to tap it in around the edge.
Out of habit, I still fill these 1/2 way with grease, even tho it's a sealed bearing.

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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-16-2017, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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So I finished installing my Bimarco Grip seat last night (had to make an adapter to allow me to bolt it to my existing corbeau sliders) and started working on the front spindles (once I get the conversion fixture I'll tackle the rears).

I actually have (8) mustang front hubs in my office now because I realized I had bought the $40 timkin ones instead of the $20. If I was just buying one paid I'd probably suck it up and pay $80 for the fronts but I now need (4) of them -- 2 for the car and 2 for the race spares. It's a good opportunity to compare the two.

WJB WA513115
- Made in China
- Studs actually seem better than with TIMKIN
- Casting seems very similar

TIMKEN 513115 $41.79/ea
- Made in Japan; KOYO bearing
- Studs seem poorer quality.
- Casting seems very similar


I'm definitely keeping two of the cheaper ones for the race spares but should I use the TIMKINs on the racecar or just go with the cheaper ones?

LMK what you guys think.
-g
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-16-2017, 06:52 PM
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Your going to utilize the stock bird calipers correct?

I was thinking of doing a full Mustang GT brake system on my hub swap, as I already have PBR calipers, all I would need would be the rear gt rotors on stock bird calipers, may cause the hub swap to just be the cost of new front rotors and used mustang GT wheels and tires.

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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-16-2017, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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Your going to utilize the stock bird calipers correct?

I was thinking of doing a full Mustang GT brake system on my hub swap, as I already have PBR calipers, all I would need would be the rear gt rotors on stock bird calipers, may cause the hub swap to just be the cost of new front rotors and used mustang GT wheels and tires.
You are confusing the front with the rear. I will write up an updated Hub swap DIY when I'm done but for starters, here's the basic gist:

Front: PBR mustang calipers, Mustang brackets , Mustang rotors , Mustang hubs, 93+ tbird spindles, tbird spindle nuts, (5) 1/2-20" lug nuts per side

Rear: stock T-bird calipers and brackets, ARP wheel studs, fixture to redrill stock hubs and rear tbird rotors


Alternative for rear: Cobra rear hubs, redrilled rotors or rear Cobra rotors (whatever it takes to match the bolt pattern), custom caliper relocation adapters ( which I didn't want to pay for), & tbird rear calipers.

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Last edited by S4gunn; 08-17-2017 at 12:48 AM.
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-17-2017, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
You are confusing the front with the rear. I will write up an updated Hub swap DIY when I'm done but for starters, here's the basic gist:

Front: PBR mustang calipers, Mustang brackets , Mustang rotors , Mustang hubs, 93+ tbird spindles, tbird spindle nuts, (5) 1/2-20" lug nuts per side

Rear: stock T-bird calipers and brackets, ARP wheel studs, fixture to redrill stock hubs and rear tbird rotors


Alternative for rear: Cobra rear hubs, redrilled rotors or rear Cobra rotors (whatever it takes to match the bolt pattern), custom caliper relocation adapters ( which I didn't want to pay for), & tbird rear calipers.
Ya I must have typed in error. I wonder what size a mustang GT rear brake rotor is, if it is close in size to the Thunderbirds, and if there was any potential for it to work. GT/V6 mustang parts are plentiful, but the cobra stuff tends to be pricey.

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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-17-2017, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyICU View Post
Ya I must have typed in error. I wonder what size a mustang GT rear brake rotor is, if it is close in size to the Thunderbirds, and if there was any potential for it to work. GT/V6 mustang parts are plentiful, but the cobra stuff tends to be pricey.
The cobra and GT/V6 rear hubs are of a different design (IRS vs non-IRS) so it would not be surprising that the rear rotors are not compatible, either, because of the different depths of the rear rotor (where the braking surface sits in relation to the hub).

You can easily figure this out from Rockauto. Go look at a 99 GT rear rotor spec and compare

99Cobra rear rotor


99 GT rear rotor
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...354744&jsn=609

Outside Diameter: 10.51
Overall Height: 1.975
Number of Bolts/Holes: 5
Bolt Circle: 4.5
Discard Thickness: 0.504
Vented or Solid: Vented
Mounting Type: K

Bottom Line (for the rear)
If you buy rear cobra hubs (and pay the cobra "tax"), likely need to press out and replace the bearings as mentioned, you could do one of the following:
1) buy cobra rear rotors + the caliper relocation bracket + hub centering ring (last two available from XR7 Dave). I call this the "throw money at the problem" solution.
2) redrill the existing tbird rotors. At that point though, why wouldn't you just redrill the rear hubs as well? ARP studs are going to be a LOT stronger than the ones that come with the cobra rear hubs and the rest of the materials (drill bits) are quite cheap.


I swapped out the front hubs last night. It helps to have an impact gun and a giant bench vise but from start to finish this was literally a <15 min job for BOTH front spindles!
http://forums.tccoa.com/6-general-te...nch-vises.html

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-17-2017, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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MadMikeyL or any other veterans: any opinions on the Timkin vs WJB hubs for the front? I'd like to decide what I return back to rockauto.
Thanks,
-g

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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-17-2017, 01:57 PM
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The cheaper ones will probably be fine. Even if they only last 10K miles, it would be years before they go bad, and since you are bolting them to a racecar, all warranties would be void anyway, so you might as well save a few bucks.

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-20-2017, 12:14 AM Thread Starter
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I've had a slight change in plans: a friend is switching platforms for his lemons car away from a tbird (he's tired of DNFing with his 3.8SC and his son in law happens to own a subaru shop) so I will be acquiring his 17" rims in 5x4.25... all 10 of them... by EOY 2017.

This means all of the mustang hubs are going back and I will need to unload the Mustang front discs I bought a few months ago along with the ugly Mustang 17s I just bought AND my (8) 16" SC rims once I have their replacements. My garage will look like a poor man's tire shop for a little bit (well, more than it does now).

I will be keeping the ARP studs and 1/2"-20 nuts I just bought so that I will upgrade the studs on my front spindles and rear axles which will go on the car to these newer studs (less chance of shearing them again).

While this means I will need to keep the old M12x1.5 lug nuts for use with my front/rear race spares, that's cheaper than buying another $60 worth of studs to replace the studs on the race spares as well.

-g

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 08-20-2017, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
The cobra and GT/V6 rear hubs are of a different design (IRS vs non-IRS) so it would not be surprising that the rear rotors are not compatible, either, because of the different depths of the rear rotor (where the braking surface sits in relation to the hub).

You can easily figure this out from Rockauto. Go look at a 99 GT rear rotor spec and compare

99Cobra rear rotor


99 GT rear rotor
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...354744&jsn=609

Outside Diameter: 10.51
Overall Height: 1.975
Number of Bolts/Holes: 5
Bolt Circle: 4.5
Discard Thickness: 0.504
Vented or Solid: Vented
Mounting Type: K

Bottom Line (for the rear)
If you buy rear cobra hubs (and pay the cobra "tax"), likely need to press out and replace the bearings as mentioned, you could do one of the following:
1) buy cobra rear rotors + the caliper relocation bracket + hub centering ring (last two available from XR7 Dave). I call this the "throw money at the problem" solution.
2) redrill the existing tbird rotors. At that point though, why wouldn't you just redrill the rear hubs as well? ARP studs are going to be a LOT stronger than the ones that come with the cobra rear hubs and the rest of the materials (drill bits) are quite cheap.


I swapped out the front hubs last night. It helps to have an impact gun and a giant bench vise but from start to finish this was literally a <15 min job for BOTH front spindles!
http://forums.tccoa.com/6-general-te...nch-vises.html
I lucked out and have a Mark 8 parts car with a stang hub swap on it right now. No brakes though, he had a kit on it but sold it off of the car

1995 Ford Thunderbird 4.6 LX - SC wheels, enlarged rear sway bar, full sound system, cut mufflers, PST 1 1/8" rear bar, Eibachs, Mark 8 LCA's, Al housed 3.55 gearset, cut mufflers
2011 BMX X5 Xdrive50i - BMS Stage 1, Cut Muffler
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7L-Her stock DD
1984 Ford F250 6.9 IDIT - head studs in progress
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-16-2017, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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Madmikey et al:
So I installed the ARP 100-7703 studs on new front hubs and they went on my existing spindles without any drama. The only interesting thing of note is that even though they were some 40% longer than stock, I really didn't realize how much they'd stick out until after I put them on the car. Basically, they extend beyond the plane of the stock 16" SC wheels and JUST at the plane of the tire sidewall. Crazy.

Now, I'm working on the rears. I drilled out a few holes with my 15.5mm drill bit on the whole axle/hub assembly in my vise without any issues but when I tried to test fit an ARP stud, I ran into an issue: there does NOT seem to be enough room between the spindle assembly to allow the ARP stud to sit in the hole WITHOUT removing the axle nut and pulling the hub off the spindle.

Please see pic.

Q: Is there something I'm missing here, do I need to actually detach the hubs from the spindles/axles, or do I just need to use a sacrificial lug nut to scrape/pull the ARP stud past the spindle?

I also found that my 36mm socket I used for the front spindles (the only one I found at Sears) is NOT long enough to remove the rear retaining nut. If this is necessary, I'm going to have to visit Autozone and get one of their loaners...

Either the whole axle socket set Part #27320
OEM 8 pcs. 6 points axle nut socket set 27320 - Read Reviews on OEM #27320

or just the individual socket (which I don't like as much b/c it's a 12pt vs 6pt)
Part #27329
OEM 36 mm. 12 points axle nut socket 27329 - Read 1 Reviews on OEM #27329

If I'm detaching the rear hubs though, I might as well consider buying new bearings and retaining clips. That's another Rockauto order.
Rear Bearing DIY.
http://www.sccoa.com/sccoo/Faq/howtobear.htm
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-16-2017, 04:27 AM
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In that situation, I would typically grind a flat spot on the flange of the stud to allow it to clear. As for the axle nut socket, you need a 36mm deep impact socket. Auto parts stores typically sell them for less than $20, so you might as well just buy one.

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-16-2017, 09:07 AM
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I imagine that's why the factory studs (on my rear axle flanges anyway!) had the flat ground on them.

RwP

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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 09-16-2017, 11:43 AM
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The axle nut takes some substantial torque; I bought an Impact deepwell socket in 6 pt.

I stand on a 3/4" rachet to get the torque going back; you might need another person, I'm kinda big.

Turn the wheel as you tighten it up; it will help seat the bearing halves together.

Torque it until it won't move.

215ft. lbs. is the spec, it's not easy to hit; and using an impact tool when seating bearings is a terrible idea.


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