Mustang Hub Swap DIY as of 2017 - TCCoA Forums
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2017, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Mustang Hub Swap DIY as of 2017

There are plenty of other threads here discussing doing a mustang hub swap but I wanted to chronicle my choices/options if you plan to start this project in 2017.

The basic idea is that by swapping to Mustang hubs, you can use much cheaper 17" mustang wheels on your tbird. My specific needs are a bit more complicated though because I essentially needed to do this twice: once for the hubs on my car and once on the full set of spares I take to the racetrack


Background Reading
MN-12 Bolt Circle Change and Brake Upgrades

http://forums.tccoa.com/14-tires-whe...ce-part-s.html

HOWTO: drill the rear rotors and hubs (without a fixture)
http://forums.tccoa.com/45-brakes/16...ke-rotors.html

HOWTO: Replace rear wheel bearings
http://www.sccoa.com/sccoo/Faq/howtobear.htm

Front Hubs
Parts Needed
93-97 Tbird Front Spindles

94-04 SN95 Mustang Front Hubs (#F6ZZ-1104-AA or TIMKEN 513115): $22-$45 depending on brand on RockAuto

93-97 Tbird Hub spindle nuts OR modified Dorman 615-098.1 spindle nuts.

94-05 SN95 Mustang Front Rotors

93-97 tbird calipers+brackets OR do the PBR upgrade and swap in 99-04 Mustang GT calipers+brackets.

(5) 1/2"-20 lug nuts per wheel (stock tbird used M12x1.5 lugnuts)

Tools Needed
Impact Gun: makes spindle nut removal a snap

250ft-lb torque wrench: avail as free loan-a-tool from Autozone OEM 1/2 in. drive adjustable click type torque wrench 27043 - Read 3 Reviews on OEM #27043

Giant Vise: makes torqueing down the spindle nut a cinch

Notes
* You need to use 93+ front spindles
* If your stock spindle nuts get messed up during removal, the Dorman 615-098 spindle nuts ($5 at autozone) have messed up threads but can be fixed by chasing the threads with a simple M24x2.0 tap before use.
http://tccoa.com/forums/44-suspensio...ndle-nuts.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-24mm-x-...ior-quality-S/ - M24x2.0 tap is <$15 on eBay

* The dust covers may be removed using a hammer and chisel. The key is to whack the chisel until a gap opens up between the cover and the spindle and then angle the chisel upwards so it forces the cover off on the next tap. They can be reused.

My Decisions
* I first attempted this on my two spare front spindles and it was seriously like a 15 min job.
* You tap off the dust cover, zip off the spindle nut with the impact gun, the old spindle will lift straight off and you drop the new spindle on and reverse the process.

Rear Hubs

OPTION: Use Cobra rear spindles
99-04 Cobra Rear hubs may be swapped onto the rear tbird spindles but you will need cobra rear rotors (to match the new bolt pattern), and a rear caliper relocation bracket to use the stock tbird brake calipers. Even though someone offered me a good deal on the rear hubs, I didn't want to spend another $100+ on brackets.

Cobra brake 11.65" rotor upgrade kit.

Parts Needed
(5) ARP 100-7703 Studs per rear axle -- I needed 4 sets. Pepboys was selling 4 of them for ~$14/ea shipped on eBay
(5) 1/2"-20 lug nuts per wheel. All in, I need 25. I was able to buy 40 from eBay for $22 so I have enough to use for the install process as well.

OPTIONAL:
- Unnecessary if you are redrilling the hubs while still on the car
- Very likely to be needed if you are using used Cobra rear hubs
- Need to be pressed in/out
(2) Rear wheel bearings (ex: TIMKEN SET49 @ <$24/ea on Rockauto)
(2) Rear wheel bearing retainers (TIMKEN RET115 @ $1.09/ea on Rockauto)

Tools Needed
- 5x4.25" -> 5x4.5" drill jig: $122.60 shipped from Menu
Drill-guide-price
- 1/4" drill bits: for pilot holes
- Cutting oil
- Hydraulic press for installation of bearings

(3-4) 39/64" or 15.5mm drill bits:
- keep in mind I'm planning to drill 5 holes x 4 rear axles + 5 holes x 4 brake rotors = 40 holes. You will want a spare though.
- The hole size is knurl specific. My ARP studs have a knurl of 0.625" so I need to drill a hole smaller than that and pull the stude through. 39/64" = 0.6094" and 15.5mm = 0.6102"
- I chose 15.5mm drill bits because I found them for $3.76 shipped on eBay 1/2" Straight Shank 15.5mm Split Point Tip HSS High Speed Steel Twist Drill F9O0 whereas 39/64" bits were more like $10/ea.


Notes
I'm frugal so I picked the re-drilling route for the rears (drill out the tbird hubs to 5x4.5). I was NOT planning on replacing the rear wheel bearings since I have a set of race spares (if the rear bearings go out during a race, I'll simply swap in a different axle/spindle assembly).

- Use the fixture to drill out the existing hubs. MadMikey says you can do this ON THE CAR if you plan to reuse the stock hubs and drill through the brake rotor and hub in one-shot (obviously starting with a smaller drill bit and working your way up to 39/64 or 15.5mm). Take your time, go slow, and use plenty of cutting oil.
- Soak the old wheel studs in PB BLaster or equivalent and bang them out.
- Install the new ARP wheel studs with a sacrificial 1/2-20 lug nut and impact gun.

Update Aug 22, 2017
I received an offer from another lemons team to hook me up with 8-10 17" rims in the tbird bolt pattern so I've decided to switch up my plans a bit. Instead of switching over to the mustang hub pattern, I will stick with the existing tbird bolt pattern (5x4.25) and upgrade my wheel studs to the ARP ones.
- All of the Mustang hubs went back to rockauto (great return policy)
- I will use the 15.5mm drill bits to enlarge the existing holes in my rear hubs.
- The four sets of ARP wheel studs I already own will now be used to make sure that the front/rear wheel studs on the car are all new (we sheared some off during our last race when we lost a wheel so they have likely been overtorqued/abused already). This means I will still use the new 1/2"-20 lug nuts I already purchased.
- My race spares will retain their stock tbird wheel studs so I will need to keep my extra M12x1.5 lug nuts. This is a small price to pay though to insure that I don't need to scramble if I ever need additional spares (any tbird can be a donor without additional work).
- Since I didn't want to upgrade the wheel studs on front wheel hubs with 100K+ mi on them only to potentially repeat the work in the future when the bearings go out, I went ahead and bought a pair of new front wheel hubs to serve as donors for the ARP studs.
- Stud removal is fairly simple: soak in PB blaster and then hit with a hammer.
- The only "wasted" items i have are some new Mustang rotors I purchased (I have 4 for some reason) but cannot return. I plan on unloading these on CL and if I can't, I'll use the fixture to redrill them to 5x4.25 and just use them on the tbird.
- I also have a set of the 'ugly' 17x8 94-95 Mustang GT rims to unload as well. Considering they were fairly hard to find in the SF Bay Area, I suspect someone will buy them off of me for what I paid ($100).

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Last edited by S4gunn; 08-25-2017 at 05:39 PM.
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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2017, 08:44 PM
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Thanks for some clarity on the front.
I just added the hub, etc for the front and thought, hey not bad.

the rear? ugh. cobra hubs are ~150 each, then 250 or so for the caliper/rotors from rockauto.. so nearly 550 for the rear swap.

I'd just switch to powerstop front and rear with the mn12 bolt pattern, however my cobra thunderbird wheels are very badly damaged, so I either need to source two new 17" cobra wheels (with mn12 bolt pattern.)
or a full mn12 set of wheels.

not even sure where to find a cheap source for some decent looking wheels.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-23-2017, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by son of mad dog View Post
Thanks for some clarity on the front.
I just added the hub, etc for the front and thought, hey not bad.

the rear? ugh. cobra hubs are ~150 each, then 250 or so for the caliper/rotors from rockauto.. so nearly 550 for the rear swap.

I'd just switch to powerstop front and rear with the mn12 bolt pattern, however my cobra thunderbird wheels are very badly damaged, so I either need to source two new 17" cobra wheels (with mn12 bolt pattern.)
or a full mn12 set of wheels.

not even sure where to find a cheap source for some decent looking wheels.
The Cobra hub swap isn't terribly cost effective which is why redrilling your existing hubs (or even new tbird hubs bought online) is so appealing. Apparently the redrilling can even be done on the car.

$99 for the fixture which can be resold plus (2-3) 1/4" and (2-3) 15.5mm drill bits plus some wheel studs. Not a bad deal if you are willing to take your time.
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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-24-2017, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
The Cobra hub swap isn't terribly cost effective which is why redrilling your existing hubs (or even new tbird hubs bought online) is so appealing. Apparently the redrilling can even be done on the car.

$99 for the fixture which can be resold plus (2-3) 1/4" and (2-3) 15.5mm drill bits plus some wheel studs. Not a bad deal if you are willing to take your time.
-g
are you saying redrill the tbird hubs to 5x4.5?
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-24-2017, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by son of mad dog View Post
are you saying redrill the tbird hubs to 5x4.5?
Yes, I thought that was pretty obvious. I'll make it more explicit above.

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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-24-2017, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
Yes, I thought that was pretty obvious. I'll make it more explicit above.
You know that had NEVER occured to me.

https://www.1aauto.com/wheel-hub-pai...AaArmLEALw_wcB

new hubs for 75 dollars. I'd do that in a heartbeat. no new rear brakes required etc... not like it has a coyote heart... YET.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by son of mad dog View Post
You know that had NEVER occured to me.

https://www.1aauto.com/wheel-hub-pai...AaArmLEALw_wcB

new hubs for 75 dollars. I'd do that in a heartbeat. no new rear brakes required etc... not like it has a coyote heart... YET.
Don't forget new Timken bearings ... RA has'em for under $25 each when I type this, and I'd recommend new retainers. Of course, you'd need those with Cobra hubs also.

RwP

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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-25-2017, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RalphP View Post
Don't forget new Timken bearings ... RA has'em for under $25 each when I type this, and I'd recommend new retainers. Of course, you'd need those with Cobra hubs also.

RwP
Fair enough. In my plans this was optional but for the sake of completeness, I updated the DIY including a link to the SCCOA article.

-g

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-07-2017, 07:16 PM
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Can I buy the tool when you're done with it, with the condition I sell it back at cost later, if you so wish?



"Cheap Bastard" is apparently written large on my soul, lol.

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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-07-2017, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
Can I buy the tool when you're done with it, with the condition I sell it back at cost later, if you so wish?



"Cheap Bastard" is apparently written large on my soul, lol.
I was actually going to borrow it from MadMikey not buying from him. I haven't received it from Clint yet but if I do and if it's okay with Mikey, I'm happy to ship it on.

Oh, it took a month but I did receive my 15.5 mm drill bits from Ebay that cost 3 bucks each. Since I'm only enlarging the existing holes on my axles versus drilling new ones, I doubt I will burn through these bits unless they are really really crappy. I'll include them when I pass this this kit on to whomever mad Mikey designates.

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-07-2017, 07:38 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by S4gunn View Post
I was actually going to borrow it from MadMikey not buying from him. I haven't received it from Clint yet but if I do and if it's okay with Mikey, I'm happy to ship it on.

Oh, it took a month but I did receive my 15.5 mm drill bits from Ebay that cost 3 bucks each. Since I'm only enlarging the existing holes on my axles versus drilling new ones, I doubt I will burn through these bits unless they are really really crappy. I'll include them when I pass this this kit on to whomever mad Mikey designates.
Not a problem! I hope I can get included in the chain. I don't mind spending money to add to the cause of our lack of wheel options, lol.

Hopefully, I never wear out hubs.

I have a cobra set of hubs here, and I'm afraid Lazarus has a bearing going bad; I'll see tomorrow.

I have tomorrow off, and the weather is supposed to be superb.

If it does need a bearing, I'll be ordering everything else to do the swap.

I have spare knuckles, and one more bad one will make a set to rebuild.

These cars are like Big Boy Legos, lol.

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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 03:59 PM
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Deleted my first post in this thread after reviewing another thread by S4gunn.

In typical RockAuto fashion, I received a mismatched pair of Timken 513115 hubs, one made in China and one made in Korea. Has anyone gotten SKF or Motorcraft Mustang front hubs lately, and were they matched and made in a country not called China?

Timken isn't good enough to be fully exempt from anyone's shit list anymore.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:09 PM
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Timken got bought by Toyo, last I heard; toyo was south korean.

At least they're not North korean, made from political prisoners; Oh, wait; china...

Ahh, Fuck.



I do my best not to buy Chinese anything; not even MAGA hats.
(the one I was given says Made in China...)

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Last edited by Grog6; 05-16-2019 at 04:27 PM.
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 01:20 PM
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The Timken front hubs are getting returned today. The SKF units arrived yesterday. Also made in China. I haven't opened the product boxes to look at them yet.

Since it costs $6 to return a pair of wheel hubs to RockAuto, which honestly isn't bad for a 12 lb. box, I'm considering just buying up their entire stock of SN95 Mustang hubs to find a matching pair made in a desirable location and returning the rest.

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 05-22-2019, 02:32 PM
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Not that I really want to get thrown into the fray but practically all of this stuff is made in China now.

You can thank both corporate America and American citizens for this. You get what you're willing to pay for.
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 06:44 PM
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Just a couple of questions:

1. If you swap out the front hubs with ones from a Mustang, then you also need front Mustang rotors, but the T-Bird calipers, brackets, and pads can be reused, correct?
2. Drilling out the T-Bird front rotors with the drill guide is not an option because the center hole of the rotor will not fit the Mustang hubs, correct?
3. If you go with drilling out the T-Bird rear hubs and rotors, at that point won't the T-Bird rear hubs and the Mustang front hubs have different hub center diameters, which would mean you would need different rims for the front and rear?

Thanks for any clarification.
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 08:45 PM
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You need to search, heavily.

I'll say, the PBR front's require no mods whatsoever.

The rears need relocation brackets, cobra disks, and mustang wheels, unless you redrill the disks.

SEARCH. It's all here.

Red '96 Cougar XR-7 240k mi. '02 4R70W, PST DS : '03 PI engine, 04 maf, 24lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, '02 4r70w + Jmod, DirtyD0g TC + cooler + 3/8" lines, 255 walbro fp. Alpine system.
Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:27 PM
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Actually, I have searched and read almost a dozen threads on the subject, here and elsewhere. I've become familiar with the main points of what is involved and the different ways of accomplishing it, from hub swaps to re-drilling hubs to wheel adapter spacers, etc. This thread especially is very informative. The way I'm leaning is to swap out the front hubs and re-drill the stock rear hubs, just as this thread has described. However, all I was asking was for some clarification about some of the points brought up here. For example, no one has really made mention if there is a difference in hub center diameters between the Mustang front hubs and the stock T-Bird rear hubs. If there is a difference, wouldn't that prevent rotating tires from front to back? Also, it's been mentioned about re-drilling the rear rotors but no where have I read about re-drilling the front rotors. Is this because of the hub center diameter, which, again, would that not prevent the rims from fitting both front and rear? Just asking for more information that I haven't seen brought up anywhere else.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 09:36 PM
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Hub centers are all the same in this case. The reason no one uses the MN12 front brakes is because it's so cheap to upgrade when you're already going though all of the trouble to swap. Mustang brake calipers basically bolt right on from what I've seen (I'm doing this swap, as well)
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 08:28 AM
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Thank you for that information. My main concern was being able to rotate tires from front to rear and not running into any issues with the wheels not fitting both of the hubs (front & rear). I was actually planning on using the Mustang rotors and actually found yesterday on Rock Auto the dimensions for the front rotors for both the Mustang and Thunderbird are the same as far as overall diameter as well as the hub center diameter. The only difference being the bolt pattern between the two. As far as the front calipers, since the rotors are basically the same size, wouldn't the stock Thunderbird calipers still be able to be used? Again, thanks for any info.
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-22-2019, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you for that information. My main concern was being able to rotate tires from front to rear and not running into any issues with the wheels not fitting both of the hubs (front & rear). I was actually planning on using the Mustang rotors and actually found yesterday on Rock Auto the dimensions for the front rotors for both the Mustang and Thunderbird are the same as far as overall diameter as well as the hub center diameter. The only difference being the bolt pattern between the two. As far as the front calipers, since the rotors are basically the same size, wouldn't the stock Thunderbird calipers still be able to be used? Again, thanks for any info.
You could use the single piston tbird brake calipers but as others have pointed out, using the dual piston calipers from a 99-04 mustang GT is a significant upgrade. The reman parts are cheap and enables something like 50% more pad. It's the first brake upgrade most people do on the tbird even with the stock rotors and stock caliper bracket. Search for pbr brake upgrade. There are some nuances that you need to be aware of but you can find them out by reading the threads.

The only reason you'd run into issues is if your stock setup were sport brakes. In that scenario, your rotors would be a different size (11.5" to 10.9" or something like that) so the caliper brackets would be wrong if you go to a mustang rotor.

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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 10:49 AM
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Thanks for that. I will definitely look into the brake upgrade. One other question, after re-drilling the stock rear hubs, is it better to remove the old lug studs or leave them in and cut them flush with the hub face? Thanks.
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 12:39 PM
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... after re-drilling the stock rear hubs, is it better to remove the old lug studs or leave them in and cut them flush with the hub face? Thanks.
Knock out the old lug studs BEFORE redrilling; pull new studs in the new holes.

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 01:10 PM
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It was my impression that the drill guide for re-drilling the rear hub and rotor is attached to the original lugs while drilling.
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-23-2019, 02:10 PM
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It was my impression that the drill guide for re-drilling the rear hub and rotor is attached to the original lugs while drilling.
Is it?

If so, then drill THEN knock the old studs out.

(Or knock the old studs out, then put a regular set of bolts and nuts in to hold the guide. It's not that difficult; the studs being out will make it a lot easier to manipulate the flange while drilling.)

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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 09:47 AM
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I double checked and the drill guide uses the original lugs and nuts to hold it in place while drilling. So, the general consensus is to knock out the old studs after drilling and not cut them off flush with the hub? I was just wondering if it would help with the strength of the hub in leaving the head & shoulder of the old lugs still in the original holes or if it would matter at all leaving them out.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-24-2019, 11:20 AM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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Twisting the bolt flange on the wheel hubs is not anything you're ever going to do, lol.

Extra holes or not.

The axles will fail Way before then.

The problem with cutting them off would be if they fell out later and jammed into the knuckle.
You could cut them flush, and tack weld them in place to make sure that doesn't happen.



You can buy new hubs from summit:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-1109-a

No one drills the fronts; they buy the mustang hubs.

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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 10:34 AM
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Thanks everyone for all the help and info. I'm going to go with Mustang hubs, rotors, and calipers from Rock Auto for the front. For the back, I'm going to purchase the drill guide and drill the stock rotors and hubs. And thanks Grog6, I had not thought of the possibility of the lugs falling out (even though they fit pretty tight, you never know) so I will knock them out after drilling.
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:53 PM
No, Mr. Lemmywinks, No!!!

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For less than the cost of the drill guide, you can buy the relocation brackets from XR7Dave on sccoa.

Dave Dalke, he has a shop.

Cobra brake 11.65" rotor upgrade kit.

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Black '96 Cougar XR-7 (Lazarus) 210k mi PI Intake, '02 4R70W, Jmod, PST DS, GrogTune, Konis, Mark LCA+Poly, racecougar Custom Engine Chain, and JL and racecougar Bracing.
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Grog6 View Post
For less than the cost of the drill guide, you can buy the relocation brackets from XR7Dave on sccoa.

Dave Dalke, he has a shop.

Cobra brake 11.65" rotor upgrade kit.
So how is he going to get his mustang bolt pattern wheels over his tbird bolt pattern rear axle hub?

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