TCCoA Forums banner

Bad Roller Clutch

9K views 24 replies 9 participants last post by  Grog6 
#1 ·
Remember when I told y'all the transmission was acting up in the '95 Bird?

1st and 2nd worked fine, but when the car tried to shift into 3rd, it was like you hit the brakes. If I got going fast enough in 2nd, it would brake when going into 3rd, but then when it went into 4th it would take off.

Well, I put the 1997 transmission in out of the Sport I've been parting out and I just got a chance to pull apart the 1995 tranny that I suspected the roller clutch went bad.

Sure enough, this is what's left of the roller clutch I pulled out of the '95 tranny today:

 
See less See more
1
#2 ·
:eek:

It looks like the roller clutch snap ring came off..

The Sonnax Spiral Snap Ring prevents this sort of roller clutch failure..
Sonnax Spiral Snap Ring [Part #76554RK]

The Sonnax Spiral Snap Ring & 98+ Mechanical Diode would be a good upgrade for anyone considering rebuilding their AOD/4R70W..


Thanks for posting this..


Rayo..
 
#3 · (Edited)
No Rayo, the snap ring was on - I TOOK it off to survey the damage. I should have took more pics, but there were pieces of the roller clutch cage hanging out between the reverse drum and the clutch assembly. It was pretty ugly.

I'm not gonna rebuild this tranny because who knows how many little pieces are throughout the case - I found pieces in the pan when I pulled it.
 
#4 ·
yummy! i got lucky and the TC seized up before i had any roller issues, though i was aware of them blowing quite often in taxi's and stuff.

i was planning on replacing mine with a 97+ anyway, when she finally locked up solid, put it any gear and it would act like you popped a manual clutch without throttle.... /die. had to neutral bomb her home, it was quite entertaining XD

was hoping to get a few more miles out of it, but she forced my hand :tongue: funny how that usually happens.

i also was not able to disassemble my old one... yard i got my MK8 one from wanted an intact core to rebuild. i suspect it was a TCC noid most likely. probably could have fixed the issue but the forward gears were slipping real bad anyway. that MK8 trans and the 11" TC it has woke my car up a surprising amount.
 
#5 ·
NetKeym said:
the snap ring was on - I TOOK it off to survey the damage. I should have took more pics
Shoulda-Woulda-Coulda.. :tongue:

Since you don't have a clue why your Roller Clutch failed..Lets hope a real expert chimes in on what could have caused your Roller Clutch to fail like that..

:)



Rayo..
 
#10 ·
Since you don't have a clue why your Roller Clutch failed..Lets hope a real expert chimes in on what could have caused your Roller Clutch to fail like that..
If you read the Transmissions 101 article, the Intermediate One way clutch is "Not suited for this environment".

Asking Why it failed is like asking why the 3.8's blow head gaskets .. a lot of contributing factors that exploit a design defect.
 
#8 ·
What in particular causes the Roller Clutch to fail like this?..

Every case I ever heard of the Roller Clutch failing was due to the Snap/Retaining Ring coming off.. :confused:



Rayo..
 
#14 ·
Roller Clutch Failure

Aside from the Roller Clutch failing because someone was shifting at 6000+ RPMs..Which in turn causes the Snap/Retainer Ring to fly off..

This is another reason why the Roller Clutch would fail..Probably the reason yours failed Rick..

From: "The Man"..

Jerry Wroblewski said:
I don't know if I posted this on this board or not, but hear goes.

Unless you have the right hardware/chip, I would not drivearound in OD Cancel mode. Here is why.

First off, and most important, is the "dreaded shudder". In short, the shudder is caused by a breakdown between the oil/friction interface in the converter clutch. No matter what they claim, no shift kit can fix this, just give you harsh lockups. The converter clutch friction builds up alot of heat in 3rd gear for this reason. The converter clutch in the AODE/4R70W can be calibrated to slip at steady state in different gears. On the Marks it slips in 2nd and 3rd gear. Now think about this, you have enough apply force to hold 200 ft-lbs of torque pushing on the lockup plate, but it is slipping 20-50 rpm. Think of the heat that generates. This is the heat that causes shudder. Now you guys with 97/98 Marks have a much better calibration for this than the 96 and older guys, but the newer ones still slip, just a smaller window. When you drive around in OD Cancel mode, you are constantly slipping the torque converter clutch making heat. Heat is bad. A chip can remove the slip from the slip tables and eliminate this amount of heat build up.

The other reason is for you guys with roller ONE WAY CLUTCHES. The intermediate one way overruns, spins, in 3rd gear. The easiest way to hurt a one way clutch is to go from overrunning to locked, or a 3-2 shift. A high speed 3-2 downshift can hurt, of fail, a fragile one way clutch. You are less likely to do 3-2's if you are in 4th gear.

jerry
:thumbsup:


Rayo..
 
#16 ·
Thanks, Rayo, nice post.

I can totally believe it; looking at the velocities involved, there's no way it was a 2-1. :)

When I upgraded the 96 Black Cougar's still working tranny, TC, and driveshaft, the PI intake and tune I had done to the car had completely wasted the 96 tranny, TC, and driveshaft.

The one way clutch came out in pieces, but was still hooking up somehow; it had issues, but not like you would think, looking like that, lol.

I upgraded to a PST aluminum DS, DirtyDog TC, and an 02 tranny, jmoded.

I'm having no issues at all now.


So, is the chance of failing a later model 4R70W higher doing a 3-2, or a 3-4 wot? :zdevil: There's a difference in the 3-4 shift in the later trannys...

My big problem is:

The 3-2 happens when you dramatically increase throttle; the 3-4 when you start to decrease throttle, without the "OD cancel" function engaged. It's a lighter shift that full WOT, but it's still pretty high.

Enquiring minds want to know, 'cause I'll likely be doing one of those two things, every work day, for the next 10 years at least, in the same place, merging with the same traffic. :cool: (In an MN12, god willing.)

Legal is 55 mph; it's never moving at that. :) It's not quite "merge properly or die" but it's close. ;)

I've never slipped one of the new ones like I did the old tranny, despite having much more power.
 
#18 ·
Thanks, Rayo, nice post.

I can totally believe it; looking at the velocities involved, there's no way it was a 2-1. :)

When I upgraded the 96 Black Cougar's still working tranny, TC, and driveshaft, the PI intake and tune I had done to the car had completely wasted the 96 tranny, TC, and driveshaft.

The one way clutch came out in pieces, but was still hooking up somehow; it had issues, but not like you would think, looking like that, lol.

I upgraded to a PST aluminum DS, DirtyDog TC, and an 02 tranny, jmoded.

I'm having no issues at all now.

So, is the chance of failing a later model 4R70W higher doing a 3-2, or a 3-4 wot? :zdevil: There's a difference in the 3-4 shift in the later trannys...

My big problem is:

The 3-2 happens when you dramatically increase throttle; the 3-4 when you start to decrease throttle, without the "OD cancel" function engaged. It's a lighter shift that full WOT, but it's still pretty high.

Enquiring minds want to know, 'cause I'll likely be doing one of those two things, every work day, for the next 10 years at least, in the same place, merging with the same traffic. :cool: (In an MN12, god willing.)

Legal is 55 mph; it's never moving at that. :) It's not quite "merge properly or die" but it's close. ;)

I've never slipped one of the new ones like I did the old tranny, despite having much more power.
I never drive around with the O/D off - I live in the middle of nowhere so why would I need to? And since I live in BFE, I also have no reason to merge with traffic - because there isn't any ;)

However, since the later transmissions have made leaps and bounds improvements in this area - I'm just gonna grab one next time I have a problem. Trust me - I've been going through my head whether I should just do a quick j-mod or put this 2004 valve body in my 95 LSC (then should I get the mechanical diode - I know where I can get one for $50).

Decisions, decisions..... :rolleyes:
 
#20 ·
Snap Ring has nothing to do with it.... Oh the humanity...
That looks familiar, lol. :thumbsup:

That's exactly how mine was when I disassembled it.

I drove it home ~50 miles; it wasn't wanting to shift, but it would. :facepalm:

The fluid was boiling when I pulled in the driveway, and was still too hot to touch the following morning, when we started taking it out. :rofl:


I fully expected to give it a ride home on a flatbed, but it wasn't having any of that. :) That's the same car I drove home with a bent valve another time, lol.

:D
 
#23 ·
So let me guess - you're saying this because you've already upgraded yours?

...
It's either the 2-1 or 3-2 that spins it like a b*tch and makes this really interesting squealing sound. :) Like a pig, or something. :D
...
I just got that Deliverance reference! :D
 
#24 ·
Of course. I can't tease you guys without having at least ONE foot to stand on, I'll get bowled over in no time otherwise! :D
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top